TSA mess and the police

[DMRick]

She said: 'nor should one judge a process based on the complaints of a tiny minority.'

You are talking about people opposed. I doubt that 50% of all polled have put in complaints. I haven't seen anyone on this thread say, yah! I love the pat downs and scans, can't wait. But many said they would do it to fly. Until the airlines start announcing they have had 50% cancellations, it's just people saying they don't like it. And those could be flyers and non flyers (who it won't affect) alike, just like on this board.

I hate hate hate, that I have to get to the airport so early to fly, and if I was part of a poll, I would say that. But I haven't complained to homeland security or TSA about it. I think, up until now that 600 complaints to the ACLU is a small amount. I don't know how many of those people also complained to TSA, but that is a small amount, even if you doubled it, or tripled it, compared to how many people fly.

Just found out our airport won't have the scanners until the end of the year, or perhaps next year. So they will have to catch me at an airport coming back.

I wouldn't call fully half the population of the United States a tiny minority. The latest polls show that 50 percent of Americans are opposed to the pat downs and a third are opposed to the body scanners (source: CNN). And when's the last time Democrats and Republicans agreed on anything? House leaders from both parties have filed letters to TSA citing invasion of privacy:

http://www.hstoday.us/content/view/15503/128/

I'm glad that you have so far had good experiences and not personally witnessed anyone who did not. But casting those who have poor experiences as a "tiny minority" based only on your personal observations does not seem justified.

 

[JLTraveling]

She said: 'nor should one judge a process based on the complaints of a tiny minority.'

You are talking about people opposed. I doubt that 50% of all polled have put in complaints. I haven't seen anyone on this thread say, yah! I love the pat downs and scans, can't wait. But many said they would do it to fly. Until the airlines start announcing they have had 50% cancellations, it's just people saying they don't like it. And those could be flyers and non flyers (who it won't affect) alike, just like on this board.

Okay, let's put this in a different perspective, since this is the DIS. Suppose Disney implemented a new policy (doesn't have to be body scanners, it could be anything at all). 50% of people went on record saying they didn't approve of this new policy, and the entire House of Representatives united in saying that the policy was invasive and potentially unconstitutional. Would it be a good idea for Disney to maintain that policy? Or we would all be shouting about corporate suicide and calling for a vote of no confidence in Iger?

What's important here isn't the number of formal complaints, IMO. What's important is the public perception of the policies. And right now, that's not looking too good for the TSA.

 

[LuvOrlando]

When it comes to freedom, the questions are always important - but one should never proceed from the stance that they know the answers when they do not - nor should one judge a process based on the complaints of a tiny minority.

When I went through the process in ORD, no one complained or seemed to be put out in any way. I stood in a long line (if you have gone through ORD, you know of the lines ) and watched hundreds go through. Hundreds. Not a single incident or outburst. And the line moved very quickly.

In case you haven't seen the new info, this isn't exactly a tiny minority.

Check out my next post.

Regarding your assertion that there is zero question to the legality of all this, if you are so certain about the constitutionality of these procedures how do you explain the ACLU's interest? Surely the are not foolish hysterics riding a wave of paranoia. I don't always agree with their conclusions on things but I do believe they are a Constitutional Think Tank. Further, considering the fact that they, more often then not, end up on the opposite side of public opinion I am doubtful they are considering anything but the logic inherent in the issue.

I also think that there is very little likelihood that the people most opposed with be anywhere near an airport. The people who show up are, by and large, already accepting the situation so that market sample is biased.

 

[LuvOrlando]

It would appear as though the upset is growing, not shrinking.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/mon...-61-oppose-new-airport-security-measures.html

"
Poll finds 61% oppose new airport security measures
November 23, 2010 | 11:41 am

TSA searches at O'Hare (AP) On the eve of one of the nation's busiest travel days, a poll has found that 61% of likely voters oppose the newly enhanced security measures at the country's airports.

The poll by Zogby International of 2,032 likely voters also found that 48% said they would probably seek alternatives to flying because of the new measures.

Airport security has become a topic of heated debate, particularly since Nov. 1, when the Transportation Security Administration implemented a more aggressive pat-down search technique at security checkpoints.

Since an attempted bombing on Dec. 25, 2009, the TSA has expanded the use of full-body image scanners that use low levels of radiation to create what looks like a nude image of the screened passenger to detect hidden weapons or contraband.

A TSA official said the agency was adding about 60 scanners a month at the nation's airports, with a goal of installing 500 machines by the end of 2010.

TSA officials said the scanners and the new pat-down technique were used on only a small percentage of passengers. Most travelers will be screened using traditional metal detectors and X-ray machines.

But privacy rights groups, including the ACLU, have objected to the new measures, comparing the pat-down procedures to a "groping."

The Zogby poll, taken online Nov. 19-22, seems to indicate a change in public opinion over the last few weeks. A CBS News telephone poll taken Nov. 7-10 found that 81% of Americans questioned said they approved of the use of the full-body scanners at airports. The CBS poll did not ask about the new pat-down search techniques.

Of those polled by Zogby, 52% said the enhanced security measures would not prevent terrorist activities and nearly half (48%) said the measures violated passenger privacy rights. Another 32% said they considered the full-body scans and pat-down search procedures to be sexual harassment.

"It's clear the majority of Americans are not happy with TSA and the enhanced security measures recently enacted," pollster John Zogby said in a statement.

-- Hugo Martin"


AND THIS ONE



http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/11/...how-americans-really-feel-about-airport-secu/


"The Results Are In: How Americans Really Feel About Airport Security Procedures
by Libby Zay Subscribe to Libby Zay's postsPosted Nov 24th 2010 11:33 AM


Two brand new surveys show Americans would rather go through full body scanners than submit themselves to the Transportation Security Administrations new pat-down procedure, which allows screeners to run their hands over breasts, buttocks and genital areas to search for bombs and other prohibited items.

The first survey found half of Americans believe the enhanced pat-downs at airports cross the line. On the other hand, nearly two-thirds of those surveyed support the use of full body scanners, according to the Washington Post-ABC News poll released Tuesday.

USA Today/Gallup did some research as well, finding the pat-down procedure angered 57 percent of adult fliers and half of those surveyed felt the new, "enhanced" pat-down procedure was no more effective than previous methods.

The USA Today/Gallup survey, conducted November 19-21st, also found most fliers are not bothered by full body scanning machines. Still, forty-two percent of those surveyed say the procedure angers or bothers them.

According to the survey, around 67 percent of adult fliers say body scanners are more effective than previous search methods.

"We are constantly evaluating and adapting our security measures, and as we have said from the beginning, we are seeking to strike the right balance between privacy and security," the TSA said in a response statement to USA Today/Gallup.

"We cannot forget that less than one year ago a suicide bomber tried to bring down a plane over Detroit," the statement continued.

Both polls were published just before the Thanksgiving holiday period, the busiest travel time of the year when 24 million people are expected to take to the skies. With a protest asking travelers refuse to be screened via body scanners, National Opt-Out Day, supposedly taking off today, travelers are preparing for the worst when it comes to long security lines.

On a normal day, the TSA screens around 2 million passengers. Fewer than 2 percent of these travelers-or 40,000 travelers-are given pat-downs.

USA Today/Gallup's survey was based on telephone interviews with 757 adult fliers. The margin of error is plus or minus four percentage points. The Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted on November 21st through a random sample of 514 adults. The margin of error is five percentage points.
"

 

[Anjelica]

I don't get it - the polls are ALL over the place that people are quoting.

My favorite was last night when I was running on the treadmill watching NBC nightly news - of Frequent Flyers 71% said they had no issues with the new procedures. Then they quoted that out of 3 million flyers as of xx date (or around that number) they only had 2000 filed complaints regarding the new procedures. That's only 6% complaining.

Now - I'm not a huge fan of the Nightly News but I just wanted to throw that out there. The polls are all OVER the place.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I don't get it - the polls are ALL over the place that people are quoting.

My favorite was last night when I was running on the treadmill watch NBC nightly news - of Frequent Flyers 71% said they had no issues with the new procedures. Then they quoted that out of 3 million flyers as of xx date (or around that number) they only had 2000 filed complaints regarding the new procedures. That's only 6% complaining.

Now - I'm not a huge fan of the Nightly News but I just wanted to throw that out there. The polls are all OVER the place.

Statistics can be all over the place due to how valid the sample is, if the sample is bad then the poll is bad. Consider a poll about the importance of WDW, if you took the poll here on The Dis the numbers would be very biased in favor of it's importance but if you took the poll at Universal - a competitor, they would be different and if you took the poll in another totally different area, say in a particularly poor community, you would get a totally different result. In order for a poll to be at all valid it has to be taken from a random sample. Also, the questions themselves must be good questions and not leading in any way.

Unless the info is fully revealed the polls are hard to read but the fact they change drastically from day to day is not an indication of invalidity. The information is still relatively new so it will take a bit of time before enough of the public is aware enough to form an informed opinion. Certainly, the press saturation of the issue and volume of travelers this weekend will cause widespread exposure very quickly. Results will swing less widely soon.

 

[Anjelica]

Statistics can be all over the place due to how valid the sample is, if the sample is bad then the poll is bad. Consider a poll about the importance of WDW, if you took the poll here on The Dis the numbers would be very biased in favor of it's importance but if you took the poll at Universal - a competitor, they would be different and if you took the poll in another totally different area, say in a particularly poor community, you would get a totally different result. In order for a poll to be at all valid it has to be taken from a random sample.

My point is that people are quoting polls that state a "majority" of folks have an issue with the new patdowns. While there are other polls that state somewhat the opposite - and I wouldn't necessarily call the TSA stating that out of 3,000,000 fliers they have had only 2000 registered complaints a poll - that seems more like a "fact" than a poll.

I'm a pretty big conservative and am a big fan of less government, etc. and I still fail to see the problem with what they are trying to accomplish. My oversea's travel still shows that what they are trying to do with these patdowns is still way less intrusive than all the countries I have flown in and out of the past 25 years. Sheesh - growing up overseas I remember fondly us kids having to hide our military dependent id's in our shoes and military gunman walking around the airport. TSA = Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[LuvOrlando]

My point is that people are quoting polls that state a "majority" of folks have an issue with the new patdowns. While there are other polls that state somewhat the opposite - and I wouldn't necessarily call the TSA stating that out of 3,000,000 fliers they have had only 2000 registered complaints a poll - that seems more like a "fact" than a poll.

I'm a pretty big conservative and am a big fan of less government, etc. and I still fail to see the problem with what they are trying to accomplish. My oversea's travel still shows that what they are trying to do with these patdowns is still way less intrusive than all the countries I have flown in and out of the past 25 years. Sheesh - growing up overseas I remember fondly us kids having to hide our military dependent id's in our shoes and military gunman walking around the airport. TSA = Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The reason for my post was because some people are saying people who have a problem with it are a minority.

It's really too soon to tell but I think its safe to say there is no clear minority for either side. People seem fairly evenly divided IMHO

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

The reason for my post was because some people are saying people who have a problem with it are a minority.

It's really too soon to tell but I think its safe to say there is no clear minority for either side. People seem fairly evenly divided IMHO

On message boards, not in airports. I fly every week for work. This is not an issue at airports - just on the internet.

 

[surfgirl]

Statistics can be all over the place due to how valid the sample is, if the sample is bad then the poll is bad. Consider a poll about the importance of WDW, if you took the poll here on The Dis the numbers would be very biased in favor of it's importance but if you took the poll at Universal - a competitor, they would be different and if you took the poll in another totally different area, say in a particularly poor community, you would get a totally different result. In order for a poll to be at all valid it has to be taken from a random sample. Also, the questions themselves must be good questions and not leading in any way.

The airlines are less concerned about a random sample... they are more concerned with frequent flyers, since that's where they earn their money.

However, the government (who gives TSA its authority) IS concerned about the public perception. Well, the elected part of the government, that is.

I was reading a newspaper online and they had a big headline yesterday, "TELL US YOUR TSA HORROR STORIES". Not even your "experiences". You don't believe the media has found a sensational story to latch onto ?

I just saw this:
"
The vast majority of people traveling Wednesday who could be subject to full-body scans at US airports are not refusing the scans, despite an online call for a “National Opt Out Day” on the eve of Thanksgiving, according to an unofficial review of airport operations by a government official.
{snip}
At New York’s LaGuardia Airport, there were “very few opt outs” so far, according to the official. At Baltimore Washington International airport, four passengers “opted out.” Those were the only “opt outs” reported as of 9:30am local time Wednesday, the official said.
{snip}
But, as of 9:30am local time Wednesday, transportation security officials across the country are reporting relatively short lines at security checkpoints and positive feedback from passengers."


I do believe the polls will continue to swing against the pat-downs and/or scanners. People will vote against anything that might inconvenience them or slow them down. Also, people are buying into the media stories they hear. Are there problems ? Of course. There are also problems with judges, police officers, doctors, priests and I don't see people up in arms wanting the entire profession changed.

I'm not in favor of the new process, but it is a minor inconvenience compared to other things. Someone above said they love to travel... I don't love to travel - I hate the "travelling" part. I like the "being there" part - I love to visit different places - the worst part is the getting there. This is just a blip on that process, in my mind.

 

[LuvOrlando]

On message boards, not in airports. I fly every week for work. This is not an issue at airports - just on the internet.

Obviously, the people who show up are going to mostly be ok wth it.

This is not a valid indication of how the rest of the population views things.

If I were to poll all the people walking around Wal-mart and ask them if Wal-mart is a great place of course I'd get a big yes. This is a bad sample because it is, almost by definition, biased. Think about the same thing with sports. If i were to walk around Giants stadium and ask, "What is your favorite sport and who is your favorite team" what kind of answer do you think I would get?

 

[CPT Tripss]

It looks like there IS some merit to the argument that enhanced security is unconstitutional. Took him over 2 hours, but this guy managed to prove it to the TSA:

http://noblasters.com/

He flew into Cincinnati International from Paris. Apparently in that airport, returning international travelers go through the sterile area. So they have to be screened AFTER their flights. He simply politely refused to be scanned or patted down.

I listened to the entire encounter. It's absolutely absurd that after getting ICE clearence and permission from them to enter the US that anyone, citizen or not, has to undergo TSA screening.

With respect fascism vs socialism, you are correct. The USSR was not communist, it was socialist, but it was also not fascist (though many of its policies certainly fell in line with common fascist practices).

The thing that makes many feel that it was fascist is the military leadership and nationalist tendencies. But it was brought forth under the banner of an economic class-based civil war and a movement to create economic equality through government ownership and management of everything. This is socialism.

Either label applies to the current nonsense - although I personnaly prefer Un American. The German governments of both stripes did what they did "to protect the ____ land" from enemies. One insert father in the blank . . .

 

[LuvOrlando]

The airlines are less concerned about a random sample... they are more concerned with frequent flyers, since that's where they earn their money.

However, the government (who gives TSA its authority) IS concerned about the public perception. Well, the elected part of the government, that is.

I was reading a newspaper online and they had a big headline yesterday, "TELL US YOUR TSA HORROR STORIES". Not even your "experiences". You don't believe the media has found a sensational story to latch onto ?

I just saw this:
"
The vast majority of people traveling Wednesday who could be subject to full-body scans at US airports are not refusing the scans, despite an online call for a “National Opt Out Day” on the eve of Thanksgiving, according to an unofficial review of airport operations by a government official.
{snip}
At New York’s LaGuardia Airport, there were “very few opt outs” so far, according to the official. At Baltimore Washington International airport, four passengers “opted out.” Those were the only “opt outs” reported as of 9:30am local time Wednesday, the official said.
{snip}
But, as of 9:30am local time Wednesday, transportation security officials across the country are reporting relatively short lines at security checkpoints and positive feedback from passengers."


I do believe the polls will continue to swing against the pat-downs and/or scanners. People will vote against anything that might inconvenience them or slow them down. Also, people are buying into the media stories they hear. Are there problems ? Of course. There are also problems with judges, police officers, doctors, priests and I don't see people up in arms wanting the entire profession changed.

I'm not in favor of the new process, but it is a minor inconvenience compared to other things. Someone above said they love to travel... I don't love to travel - I hate the "travelling" part. I like the "being there" part - I love to visit different places - the worst part is the getting there. This is just a blip on that process, in my mind.

Not necessarily, the current fliers were yesterdays income stream, already on the hook and reeled in so to speak. They should be concerned with future fliers, because people buying today pay for today's expenses and people buying next month pay for next month's expenses. There is a lag in the industry which must be accounted for when considering the financial implications.

Also, for the business flier, I wonder how all this is going to be dealt with by various HR departments. Think about it. If flying is part of someone's job then the new screenings are a part of someone's employment. Suppose that person suffers from PTSD for example, can that employee seek Disability payments? What if he/she is traumatized, can they seek Workman's comp?

 

[JLTraveling]

I don't get it - the polls are ALL over the place that people are quoting.

My favorite was last night when I was running on the treadmill watching NBC nightly news - of Frequent Flyers 71% said they had no issues with the new procedures. Then they quoted that out of 3 million flyers as of xx date (or around that number) they only had 2000 filed complaints regarding the new procedures. That's only 6% complaining.

Now - I'm not a huge fan of the Nightly News but I just wanted to throw that out there. The polls are all OVER the place.

But you have to keep in mind the number that have a bad experience and DON'T file a complaint. When I worked for Disney, the number we were given was 1:100. That is, for every one person who goes to the trouble of filing a complaint, 100 others have the same issue but don't make that complaint.

If Disney's numbers are accurate, then the percentage of people with complaints jumps dramatically.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Either label applies to the current nonsense - . . .

Wrong, and if you think that this law is either fascist or socialistic, it just shows how little you understand the terms. This is heavy handed, to be sure, but it in no way restricts American freedom.

 

[CPT Tripss]

[

I agree with this. I am 100% certain that this is Constitutional, but I am concerned that the TSA let someone through because he annoyed them enough.

You do realize that he was just trying to leave the airport and go home, right?

When we clear customs after being out of the country, they are more interested in, if I tried to sneak in a plant or fruit. If this guy was already off the plane, what was TSA looking for? I assume he had already gone through customs. I've never had the TSA try to search me on my way into the country. Certainly, our last trip from Ireland, was very time consuming. They separated us into male and female, patted us down in line, questioned us, and went through our bags after putting them through the machine a few times. Hubby has a C-Pap, so that had to be checked separately, and they wouldn't let me stay and wait for him (it was a very small hall) or take his stuff off the counter. No one did any protesting. They were very no nonsense. I thought we would never make our plane.

Just so I'm clear, was this your experience trying to leave Ireland? Or enter into the US at a US airport?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

But you have to keep in mind the number that have a bad experience and DON'T file a complaint. When I worked for Disney, the number we were given was 1:100. That is, for every one person who goes to the trouble of filing a complaint, 100 others have the same issue but don't make that complaint.

If Disney's numbers are accurate, then the percentage of people with complaints jumps dramatically.

Okay, let's assume the absolute worst and go with this - 2,000 registered complaints = 200,000 real concerns. This from a pool of 3,000,000 flyers. That is less than 7%. Still no where near your internet statistics.

 

[JLTraveling]

Wrong, and if you think that this law is either fascist or socialistic, it just shows how little you understand the terms. This is heavy handed, to be sure, but it in no way restricts American freedom.

You keep telling everyone who sees this as representative of what other governments have previously done that they're "wrong" or that they "don't understand," or you simply invoke "Godwin's Law." What you refuse to do is explain how we're wrong. How this doesn't restrict freedom. How they are no reasonable analogies to be drawn.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...You do realize that he was just trying to leave the airport and go home, right?

Yeah, and I addressed that a few posts after that one. It changes the perspective considerably.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Okay, let's assume the absolute worst and go with this - 2,000 registered complaints = 200,000 real concerns. This from a pool of 3,000,000 flyers. That is less than 7%. Still no where near your internet statistics.

Yeah, and I addressed that a few posts after that one. It changes the perspective considerably.

Missed your later post.

Also missed the source for you numbers . . . could you remind me?