TSA mess and the police

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OMG I can't believe you said that about C Ann's sister. YOu don't know what her issues may be, she didn't want to share that with us. I really don't know what to say about you. Well I do, but I would get into trouble. So have a nice Thanksgiving.

Wow. That post crosses so many lines. You are entirely unaware of CAnn's sister's situation (and for the record, so am I). Yet you would post something so incredibly judgmental and harmful? Perhaps you have the physical capability to crawl across glass, submit to a body cavity search and walk naked. Clearly CAnn's sister does not. Obviously she WANTS to see her mother. Thanks to the new policies she CAN'T. I truly pray for you that you never develop the sort of life-limiting disability that would force you to make such heart-wrenching decisions.

The rest of your post just reeks of self-entitlement and superiority. Good for you that the new policies won't stop you from flying. Doesn't make you one smidgen better than anyone else.

I merely quoted your own hyperbole back to you. I say that the sister CAN'T submit to the new screening because CAnn says that she can't. I have no reason to believe that either CAnn or her sister is a liar, and I can think of umpteen medical conditions that would make a pat down extremely difficult or impossible. Apparently you have never been touched by horrific medical problems personally or in your immediate family. For that, you should be grateful.

Thank you for your support.. :hug:

My initial reaction was anger - and extreme sadness for my sister :sad1: - but I took a few moments to think about it and a person who would post something that vile needs pity - not anger - and a whole lot of prayers..

Please remember that poster in your prayers - as well as his or her family.. There is such a dire need there..:sad2:
 
Okay, let's assume the absolute worst and go with this - 2,000 registered complaints = 200,000 real concerns. This from a pool of 3,000,000 flyers. That is less than 7%. Still no where near your internet statistics.


How do you add in the fact that the complaints are not coming from 3,000,000 flyers but only the percent thar are going through the extra screenings? Is there a way to do this?
 
Thank you for your support.. :hug:

My initial reaction was anger - and extreme sadness for my sister :sad1: - but I took a few moments to think about it and a person who would post something that vile needs pity - not anger - and a whole lot of prayers..

Please remember that poster in your prayers - as well as his or her family.. There is such a dire need there..:sad2:



Add me to the list as one of your supporters :hug:.
 
How do you add in the fact that the complaints are not coming from 3,000,000 flyers but only the percent thar are going through the extra screenings? Is there a way to do this?

In the same way that I am willing to accept that all of the complaints were about this screening, and that the 100x ratio is accurate. ;)
 

Well then, based on your personal philosophy, I guess I can just call the sky purple and declare all the books wrong. Not sure how far it would get me to follow your basic belief system so I don't think I'll do it, but feel free to go on that way yourself. I'll stick to commonly held practices and principles myself. To each their own

My Poly Sci classes were VERY specific about what was what. There is a whole Social Science devoted to just that. I think you are confusing the disparity of the fundamental belief system on paper as opposed to it in practice with where the ideology sits as a defined school of thought.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. . .but my BA is in international interactions. I took a lot of Soviet history. We talked about this extensively. . .you can argue about it all you want. . .it was fascism, especially under Stalin. . .Stalinism=red facism. I am not speaking to the definitions, but to the actual practice.
 
I'm not sure what you are talking about. . .but my BA is in international interactions. I took a lot of Soviet history. We talked about this extensively. . .you can argue about it all you want. . .it was fascism, especially under Stalin. . .Stalinism=red facism. I am not speaking to the definitions, but to the actual practice.

I agree that it was very close to fascism under Stalin, but it was still a totalitarian socialistic regime - perverted, but still socialist. Stalin certainly ensured that real communism had no chance in the USSR. He squashed the people under his thumb. But, economically, it remained socialist even under Stalin, and became truly socialist after he died.
 
Sorry - not mine - came from another post from earlier today in this thread.

Came from me as I was watching NBC nightly news last night while running on the treadmill. With as much hoopla there appears to be on the internet and the media I was shocked with their poll and then the following report on the actual number of complaints. I was expecting it, from the way this thread and other's are reporting, it would be a HUGE number of complaints of those who have actually traveled - appears not so at this time.

Does anyone know when the "new" rules went into effect?
 
I'm not thinking this is a good example. Disney doesn't seem to care when 100% doesn't like new policy, as long as they are still making money. I have been around long enough to remember when one of the perks of staying in a hotel on Dis property was that you could swim in any hotel's pool. When they pulled that perk (wayyyy before the Disboards, back when we were on newsboards on our Commodore) people were very upset, and 'no one' was going to ever stay on site again. They said it was for the benefit of all..and that was that.

When Disney first started searching our bags and it took a lot longer to get into the parks on busy days, people were not happy. People said, wait until they see..we'll go to Universal (because they hadn't started yet). Uh, yeah? What for a week that happened and back we all came. A couple weeks later Universal not only followed suit, but they wouldn't even let us bring in water. I'm going back to Disney said the people..I can bring in water.

In many cases, it's change people don't like. This has been a topic of conversation with many people lately. As I mentioned in an earlier post, those that seem the most upset in our close group (and with two birthday parties, and a huge open house here to welcome my son and his family, I've talked with a broad group of people), are those with no plans to fly. The people we know with reservations (including ourselves and family members) are still flying. Some are grumbling, but still flying.

Not approving of a policy isn't what will fill empty the planes. Just means someone doesn't like the idea IMO. I don't remember saying I think it's a great idea. I just said it won't bother me, if that's what it's to be.

Okay, let's put this in a different perspective, since this is the DIS. Suppose Disney implemented a new policy (doesn't have to be body scanners, it could be anything at all). 50% of people went on record saying they didn't approve of this new policy, and the entire House of Representatives united in saying that the policy was invasive and potentially unconstitutional. Would it be a good idea for Disney to maintain that policy? Or we would all be shouting about corporate suicide and calling for a vote of no confidence in Iger?

What's important here isn't the number of formal complaints, IMO. What's important is the public perception of the policies. And right now, that's not looking too good for the TSA.
 
Popular Mechanics had a pretty good article I read late last night regarding Airport Security vs Personal Privacy - I found it to be an interesting read especially the 1st point: basically a mixture of good offense and defense (which is a fine line in itself).


(1) This is what defense looks like in the war on terror.
When it comes to deterring terrorists who want to commit spectacular crimes like blowing up airplanes, there are two basic approaches. One is defensive; the bad news here is that there are an infinite number of targets to protect. The second: Go on the offensive, targeting the people who plan and execute such attacks. An effective security strategy demands elements of offense and defense; the trick is finding the right balance.

A robust offense leads to some unpleasant realities. It requires foreign intelligence operations and surveillance, both of which are extremely expensive and labor intensive. Some of the tools of the trade are unmanned-aerial-vehicle strikes, cooperation with shady governments, risky special-ops missions and assorted CIA shenanigans. The best targets for offensive actions are terrorist-affiliated money-movers, operative handlers and bomb makers.

But here's another grim fact: Given the rise in attention to domestic terrorism risks, a more robust offense means more invasive tactics aimed at U.S. citizens. So, in trying to identify terrorists before they strike, it's a choice between the government scrutiny you see (airport scans) and the scrutiny you don't see (data mining, phone taps, covert surveillance and undercover stings, to name just a few). More effective no-fly lists could do a lot of good, but they rely on something that's in short supply, namely, a mix of good intelligence and interagency coordination.

Remember, if it were not for the failed airplane (read: underwear) bombing attempt last Christmas, installing the new body scanners would not be such a pressing need this holiday season. If the offense had stopped these attacks before they came so close to fruition, the use of full-body scans might not be as widespread. In this regard, the offense/defense balance seems off.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/safety/airport-security-vs-personal-privacy
 
I agree that it was very close to fascism under Stalin, but it was still a totalitarian socialistic regime - perverted, but still socialist. Stalin certainly ensured that real communism had no chance in the USSR. He squashed the people under his thumb. But, economically, it remained socialist even under Stalin, and became truly socialist after he died.

I'll accept that. . .but you do understand how I meant "fascist" There is a very fine philosophical line I guess, maybe even an economic one, but in most practices they were the same. . .that's what I meant. :thumbsup2

I still think people are missing the point with these screenings. . .they do nothing to make us more secure. A would be terrorist will simply find another mechanism for carrying out what they want. We are 10 steps behind. We are being reactive instead of proactive. I think it's a farce and most likely about selling body scanners than providing real security.

Somebody help me out here. For some reason. . .I read it somewhere I think. . .not all cargo is screened. Is that correct? Because if that is the case. . then what is the point of patting down people and using scanners?
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Getting on the plane in Dublin. This was last May. They had not done that before (separated us, just as we were going though security..usually we just then go downstairs to catch our plane, but they tunneled us through yet another area and checked us well..all of us) and didn't do that when my son just came home for a visit. (Although it might have been immigration for some reason). We had wondered at the time, if they were expecting a problem.

Once we get back in the states, we go through customs, which is a piece of cake..I've never then had to go through a scanner once I'm home.

[

Just so I'm clear, was this your experience trying to leave Ireland? Or enter into the US at a US airport?
 
I'll accept that. . .but you do understand how I meant "fascist" There is a very fine philosophical line I guess, maybe even an economic one, but in most practices they were the same. . .that's what I meant. :thumbsup2

I still think people are missing the point with these screenings. . .they do nothing to make us more secure. A would be terrorist will simply find another mechanism for carrying out what they want. We are 10 steps behind. We are being reactive instead of proactive. I think it's a farce and most likely about selling body scanners than providing real security.

Somebody help me out here. For some reason. . .I read it somewhere I think. . .not all cargo is screened. Is that correct? Because if that is the case. . then what is the point of patting down people and using scanners?


I agree.


Bomb plot shows gaps in screening of air cargo
Plan to boost security is years behind schedule

By Thomas Frank, Alan Levin and Kevin Johnson
USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — The Transportation Security Administration boasts that every piece of cargo carried on domestic passenger flights is screened for bombs before being put in the belly of an airliner.

However, when it comes to ensuring the security of cargo packages on foreign flights heading to the United States, the TSA makes no such proclamations. Despite federal law requiring all cargo on U.S.-bound passenger flights to be screened as of August, authorities still aren't close to meeting the requirement.

A reminder of that gap in airline security — and of the daunting challenge officials face in closing it — came last week, when terrorists in Yemen linked to al-Qaeda slipped bombs into cargo packages addressed to synagogues in Chicago.

The discovery of the explosives in cargo shipments at airports in northern England and Dubai reflected how the complexities in shipping cargo by air can leave passengers on commercial airliners vulnerable to such security breaches: By the time the explosives were detected, both shipments had made part of their journey from Yemen on passenger jets.

That's why investigators are trying to determine whether the Yemen plot was about sending explosives to the USA, blowing up cargo jets, or even trying to attack passenger jets that happened to pick up the packages from Yemen.

For U.S. officials, improving cargo security is a key part of reducing such threats. TSA acting Administrator Gale Rossides told lawmakers in March that it could be "a couple more years" before all inbound cargo is screened for bombs.

In June, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) was more pessimistic about TSA's plan to screen all inbound cargo, saying the TSA "has not yet determined when or how it will eventually meet the deadline."

And two weeks ago, Douglas Brittin, the TSA's head of cargo security, told a group of cargo shippers that it would take until August 2013 to ensure that all international air cargo is screened, according to a slide presentation obtained by USA TODAY and confirmed by the TSA. Worse still, the method used to screen cargo in the USA cannot be set up in other countries, the slide presentation says.

"Al-Qaeda continues to probe for weaknesses, and unfortunately continues to find them," says former Homeland Security inspector general Clark Ervin, now head of security studies at the Aspen Institute, a think tank. "We always seem to be one step behind al-Qaeda."

For years, a few security analysts have warned about a plot similar to what authorities uncovered Friday. The highly destructive bombs were sent from FedEx and United Parcel Service offices in Yemen, hidden inside boxes carrying computer printers and addressed to synagogues in Chicago.

The plot marks the first known attempt by terrorists to use air-cargo packages to apparently target the USA and could reflect a shift by al-Qaeda away from having terrorists board U.S.-bound airplanes with explosives hidden on their bodies.

The attempted bombing of an international flight landing in Detroit last Christmas led countries around the world to tighten passenger screening. Police allege the suspect, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, slipped explosives through security at the Amsterdam airport by hiding them in his underwear.

"Cargo planes are now very attractive (to terrorists) because they are not subject to the same level of scrutiny as passenger planes," says Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., who is Congress' leading advocate for securing air cargo.

The aviation security law enacted two months after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks barely mentions cargo; it mandated big changes in screening passengers and their luggage. Cargo attacks were considered unlikely and less dangerous.

Markey acknowledges that destroying a passenger jet is "much worse" than terrorists blowing up a cargo plane carrying crewmembers and merchandise. But if al-Qaeda succeeded in attacking a cargo plane, "the impact on our country would be devastating psychologically and economically," Markey says.

"Without question," many people would refrain from flying, he adds.

A cargo bomb also could blow up a plane on the ground, says Capt. Lee Collins, a UPS pilot and secretary of the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations, a labor group. Under current security regulations, it would be possible to place various types of terror weapons on a cargo jet, from radioactive bombs to biological weapons, Collins says.

"What we saw on Friday would have really slowed our economy down," he says.

Air cargo is a confusing and far-flung enterprise that reaches from small-craft makers and farmers in tiny countries to the biggest passenger and cargo airlines in the world.

Security efforts to date largely have bypassed cargo planes, such as those operated by FedEx and UPS, and focused instead on passenger planes, which routinely carry cargo in the same area that holds passengers' luggage. Cargo includes electronics, auto parts, medical supplies, fresh produce — anything that needs to be transported quickly.

The TSA says cargo planes flying to the USA must meet agency security standards that restrict access to a cargo airlines facility and require training and vetting of airline workers.

Markey fought in 2005 to have cargo planes subject to tougher security requirements, but couldn't get enough votes and gave up, focusing his efforts instead on securing cargo on passenger planes.

"There was a very successful lobbying effort made by the cargo industry to exclude cargo planes" from new security requirements, Markey says. "I decided I would come back another day to do battle for screening cargo planes."

Friday likely marked the renewal of that effort.

"Al-Qaeda has warned us," Markey says. "And now we have a responsibility to put additional screening protections in place."

More than 80% of the cargo flown in and into the USA is carried on cargo-only airlines led by FedEx and UPS, but also including airlines such as Bolivia-based AeroSur, China Cargo Airlines and Nolinor Aviation of Canada.

Passenger planes flying in and into the USA carried 7.3 billion pounds of cargo in 2008, the GAO said in June. Nearly half of that cargo is loaded on planes in foreign countries, mostly friendly industrial nations such as the United Kingdom, Japan and Germany. Those countries usually screen cargo.

Cargo also is flown directly to the USA from Afghanistan, Angola, Egypt, India, Jordan, Libya, Nigeria and Saudi Arabia, according to the Department of Transportation. Yemen has no direct flights to the USA.

In the Yemen bombing plot, passenger jets carried the packages containing explosives out of that country to airports where FedEx and UPS picked them up.

"Cargo security is much different from passenger security," says Steve Lott of the International Air Transport Association, which represents 230 airlines. "Suitcases really touch only one set of hands — the person who packs the bag at home. But there's a lot of opportunity for tampering with a cargo package as it goes from the factory to an airport."

Lott says that for passenger airlines, "there is right now a lot of scrutiny on cargo security. When we look at the cargo-only carriers, we see some companies that certainly go above and beyond government standards, thanks to technology. But there are potentially global differences when it comes to government standards on cargo security."

In a June report, the GAO said getting uniform standards worldwide "may be challenging because these efforts are voluntary and some foreign countries do not share the United States' concerns regarding air cargo security threats and risks."

The volume of air cargo worldwide is so huge that the TSA and security analysts say it would be impossible to screen every package at an airport, as airlines now do with checked luggage.

When Congress passed a 2007 law ordering cargo to be screened on passenger planes, the TSA decided it would have screening done by the private sector.

To date, the TSA has authorized 1,200 companies to do their own cargo screening with TSA oversight. The screeners include manufacturers who scan cargo at their plants and freight "consolidators" who collect cargo from dozens of manufacturers and screen it at their warehouses before driving the shipments to an airport.

Domestic passenger planes are secure, says Brandon Fried, executive director of the Air Forwarders Association, a trade group of cargo companies. "Every piece of cargo on a domestic passenger plane is being screened, period," Fried says.

Many countries also screen cargo on passenger planes, he says.

Even so, the TSA cannot order foreign countries to adopt its screening standards.

The Homeland Security Department protects against cargo bombs on international flights using a computerized tracking system that looks for suspicious packages based on information showing where it came from, and who took it to an airport. The department requires overseas airlines — passenger and cargo planes — to submit a cargo manifest four hours before landing in the USA. Information about cargo from Mexico, Canada and the Caribbean must be received when the planes take off en route to the USA.

Homeland Security says this method enables it to screen all "high-risk cargo" on inbound planes.

Ervin, the former Homeland Security inspector general, says the incident last week raises questions about the department's ability to spot high-risk cargo, because the bombs were sent from a terror-prone country to Jewish houses of worship here.

"You would think these packages would have attracted scrutiny," Ervin says.

If targeting such shipments for screening works, al-Qaeda may simply change its strategy, he says. "Al-Qaeda is not stupid. If it's clear we're going to focus on things coming from Yemen, they'll start sending bombs from Yemen and won't address them to a synagogue."

The Obama administration acknowledges the problem with cargo screening.

"What we need to do is to take a look at these procedures that are in place (at) the different airports out there," White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan said Sunday on ABC's This Week. "We need to be able to detect these packages, whether they be on a cargo flight or whether they be on a passenger flight."

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20101101/1acargo01_cv.art.htm
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Getting on the plane in Dublin. This was last May. They had not done that before (separated us, just as we were going though security..usually we just then go downstairs to catch our plane, but they tunneled us through yet another area and checked us well..all of us) and didn't do that when my son just came home for a visit. (Although it might have been immigration for some reason). We had wondered at the time, if they were expecting a problem.

Once we get back in the states, we go through customs, which is a piece of cake..I've never then had to go through a scanner once I'm home.


Customs is a piece of cake for U.S. citizens. When we returned home with our adopted child, we were surprised how poorly people from out of the country were treated. These were businessmen and women (mostly) traveling here from Korea. We were thankful that we weren't treated so poorly in their country.
 
Luckily my daughter in law and granddaughter have been treated fine when they have come over.
Customs is a piece of cake for U.S. citizens. When we returned home with our adopted child, we were surprised how poorly people from out of the country were treated. These were businessmen and women (mostly) traveling here from Korea. We were thankful that we weren't treated so poorly in their country.
 
Because I, too, have taken Constitutional Law. I understand the document. These laws are based on the federal governments powers to regulate interstate commerce. Powers granted to the federal government in the Constitution and based on laws written over the centuries since. The airlines are clearly involved in interstate commerce.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 - the Commerce Clause

I don't like Wikipedia for political stuff, but it does a pretty good job explaining things like this. Read here: link...


I understand why you believe this, but I'm still not 100% certain either way :confused3.
 
OceanAnnie thanks for that post.

That pretty much summed it up for me. Terrorists are poking and prodding, looking for weaknesses. We aren't going to see anything like 9/11 again. We will see something new. . .maybe not even related to air travel. Remember that movie about a terrorist plot at the Superbowl? That would be a big fish for a terror group to be able to carry out. Lots of people, millions of people watching. . .ugh! I think we do need more profiling, better intelligence, and more behind the scenes covert operations. Like a PP's article. . .the balance is off. Patting down 4yr olds and cancer survivors with colostomy bags isn't making anybody any safer!!!!! Grrrrrrrrr!
 
I, too, say move on from personal attacks. I seem to be on a different side than C. Ann (and others) on this issue but I wouldn't, for a second, stoop to personal attacks. And, make no mistake that is what you did. Perhaps her sister had something traumatic happen to her that would make these pat downs just too traumatic for her. I don't claim to know anything about her, or her sister but I would never judge. I am very happy your life is so great. Mine is too. That is why I am so grateful for what I have and do not cast judgement on others not so fortunate.

Back to the discussion at hand....

I was just looking at the news and it appears the National Opt Out day was a bust. Oops...parden the pun. :lmao:

All airports are reporting their were no delays. I believe it was Chicago that reported they had 4 people opt out. I am in agreement with those that think any decrease in air travel is more linked to the economy that the new procedures. I think time will tell though.
 
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