TSA mess and the police

[tiggerplus5]

I honestly think the economy is more of an issue than security right now. Most people buy their tickets way in advance, not the week of a trip, especially during any holiday.

Great minds think alike

 

[C.Ann]

As for the whole security charade, I wonder how far this will be permitted to go. It has reached an albeit voluntary level that violates some laws if we weren't boarding a plane.

I just don't see how circumnavigating my breasts should be allowed. Taking s hand and running it up the middle and around the perimeter. I nurse, so such an action WILL cause a response. So now my potentially mandated search has now crossed the line. Graphic? Perhaps. But that is now what the TSA can now do. I would have to be presumed to have broken the law before a police officer can even touch me in that manner. I believe I would also have to be under arrest and read my rights...but I'm a little rusty in how that occurs since I haven't done anything to warrant that process.

Oddly---I haven't heard much from fondled women on this matter. But that certainly could be by design of the sensationalistic media. They may bechoosing either to not ask women, or they aren't getting any that are okay with it.

Additionally, these plots are all occurring overseas on US bound flights.

I just don't get it and probably never will. It has struck s chord with me and isn't something I wish to submit myself or my small children to---even if these types of searches are just random

I don't want my breasts touched, and that is my right to not have them touched. If I have to not fly to maintain that right, then so be it. Does it limit my travel? Not anymore than it did 2 weeks ago as our finances limit us.

I have an odd suspicion that if the travel requirements get more invasive or limiting, that money will talk. If airlines see their client base shrink and hurt their bottom line too much, the govt will just ease up restrictions as they have done in the past.

I can't say much more as it will tread into hostile territory of dis-allowed topics, so I will leave it at that.

Great post, Lisa..

The portion of your post that I underlined is the reason I have stepped away from this thread for a bit.. As well as it is now hitting "too close to home".. I'll address that further down in this post..

Caught a blip on the news about Delta considering refunding holiday travel tickets - on a case by case basis - due to consumers being upset about these new procedures and no longer wanting to fly.. So - I guess people really are "talking with their wallets" - and I'm willing to bet if there are no issues refunded, those who feel strongly enough will just eat the loss..

This has also become very personal for me now.. My sister was going to surprise all of us up here - flying up from Florida - for the Christmas season.. (She's a widow - 69 yrs. old - and has been saving and saving since I last saw her when I went there in 2007, so she could make this trip - which would likely be her last.. - as well as her last time to see our 92 yr. old mother..) She has physical issues that prevent her from going through the regular metal detector and/or the scanner.. That leaves only this new invasive/intrusive groping pat down (while in a wheelchair to boot) and for personal reasons (which I won't share here), it's something she can't - and won't do.. To say that I'm angry and frustrated right now would be a huge understatement..

 

[LuvOrlando]

Gandhi would not be proud. In order for others to consider your ideas, you would have to refrain from name calling and hysterical generalizations. It just makes you appear petty and mean. Maybe you don't care? And that's fine too. But it's still mean.



Most Americans with plans to travel on the busiest travel day of the year probably purchased their tickets well before the media grabbed this news story and ran with it. How can you come to this conclusion? Now, if these ticket holders boycott the airlines tomorrow and stay home, I will agree that public opinion is changing.

You are really surprised that many Americans are not flying? Imagine this...There may be other reasons why they are not flying. Off the top of my head..the poor economy, no jobs, the high rate of foreclosures in
this country. I just heard Pete on the dis podcast say that disney profits were down 7% in the last quarter (even with all the promos and free dining). In 2009 more people drove to their destinations than ever before because they could not afford to fly.
Just because people are not flying, does not mean that eveyone agrees with you.

I see, frankly, I think this 'its all because of the economy' is backpedaling because no-one likes to end up with egg on their face and be proven wrong.

I know I have personally changed my manner of behavior which is what prompted this thread
in the first place. Considering all the people who are upset I think it's fair to say I'm not alone so I believe this policy is a big fat problem. But for arguments sake, what sort of proof would you find irrefutable, because I'm pretty sure whatever it is it is on it's way.

BTW, how do you explain airlines giving money back? Surely that can't be justified by the economy argument

 

[LuvOrlando]

Great post, Lisa..

The portion of your post that I underlined is the reason I have stepped away from this thread for a bit.. As well as it is now hitting "too close to home".. I'll address that further down in this post..

Caught a blip on the news about Delta considering refunding holiday travel tickets - on a case by case basis - due to consumers being upset about these new procedures and no longer wanting to fly.. So - I guess people really are "talking with their wallets" - and I'm willing to bet if there are no issues refunded, those who feel strongly enough will just eat the loss..

This has also become very personal for me now.. My sister was going to surprise all of us up here - flying up from Florida - for the Christmas season.. (She's a widow - 69 yrs. old - and has been saving and saving since I last saw her when I went there in 2007, so she could make this trip - which would likely
be her last.. - as well as her last time to see our 92 yr. old mother..) She has physical issues that prevent her from going through the regular metal detector and/or the scanner.. That leaves only this new invasive/intrusive groping pat down (while in a wheelchair to boot) and for personal reasons (which I won't share here), it's something she can't - and won't do.. To say that I'm angry and frustrated right now would be a huge understatement..

I am so sorry to hear this has happened.

 

[DMRick]

Good thing you don't live near Albany NY and wanted to go via Southwest tomorrow..you wouldn't be able to take Southwest going tomorrow or coming back in a week to/from MCO..all full for 2 people. Maybe the pricier airlines still have seats, but from our area SW doesn't.
You also couldn't go or come back from Albany to Chicago or LA, the other two I checked on Southwest. I suppose I could check other places, but SW is our choosen airline.

I just took a look and was very surprised to see that I could still book trip to MCO for my family of 4 leaving tomorrow and returning on Sunday from all the airports near me, Newark, JFK, Laguardia and Philly. Even more surprising is the fact the flights are still very reasonably priced. Whadda'ya'know. It seems like the people saying it's ok aren't actually buying tickets and those of us saying we'll stay home are actually staying home.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic thinking this is fine or sarcastic thinking it's not. Personally, I like sarcasm but I can't read you. Yay or neigh?

Yeah, sarcasm. I see America in a lot of trouble, but I don't see fascism in our near future.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Yeah, sarcasm. I see America in a lot of trouble, but I don't see fascism in our near future.

Russians had to endure this too but they weren't fascists

The system doesn't define the behavior.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Yeah, sarcasm. I see America in a lot of trouble, but I don't see fascism in our near future.

I don't see it as fascist either. The extreme words, really don't define the situation well at all and predicting where it will go is anyone's guess.


Though if they require this to get on I-95, I'll just never travel again. I have the internet to help me travel vicariously through others.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I don't see it as fascist either. The extreme words, really don't define the situation well at all and predicting where it will go is anyone's guess.


Though if they require this to get on I-95, I'll just never travel again. I have the internet to help me travel vicariously through others.

This is not what fascism is, the word is not being used properly.

 

[DMRick]

I just don't see how circumnavigating my breasts should be allowed. Taking s hand and running it up the middle and around the perimeter. I nurse, so such an action WILL cause a response.

Lisa, would they automatically be patting you down even if you went though the scanner? Or do you not want to do that either?

C.Ann, that's too bad about your sister. I'm sure there are reasons for others not to go through the pat down, and it is a choice that has to be made, if there is a reason someone just can't. Maybe you can surprise her by going down there, if you can do the scanner, or really surprise her and take all of you on a road trip (and maybe stop in PA which would be wonderful for you!). I know that won't get a visit with your mom, but I bet she would still love to see the rest of you.

 

[skater]

Don't forget, we will also have to show "papers" and other assorted fascist things.

Ha Ha.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Russians had to endure this too but they weren't fascists

The system doesn't define the behavior.

Sorry - the sarcasm was based on NAZI comments earlier in the thread.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Russians had to endure this too but they weren't fascists

The system doesn't define the behavior.

I'm not up on my history of fascism and communism, but weren't those countries more about it not being a democracy and folks wanting to control the people?

I don't see this security issue as an attempt to control our population. It is a genuine attempt at keeping us safe, unfortunately it treads into territory that with our dollars and our votes, will eventually get to a constitutionally sound place.

It just takes time. Technology can be wonderful. Unfortunately, it gets into the wrong hands and sometimes they work faster than common sense can keep up with. It seems our security is always responding to situations vs coming up with innovative ways to preempt them.

Shoe bomber---oh no...scrutinize granny and have her take off her shoes.
Underwear bomber--oh no...we need away to make sure your panties won't explode.

Next it will be the sock bomber and we'll be required to go naked foot through security.

Then it will be the retainer bomber. No more mouth appliances on flights.

Then the potato chip bomber. No more Ruffles through security.

We never thought folks would use a plane as a weapon. We were wrong.

What we NEED--is someone in intel who can come up with all the wonk-a-doodle ways to cause chaos, and then figure out a way to prevent such things. Until that occurs, if it hasn't already--the terrorists are just 10 steps ahead of us while women get felt up to make sure their bra isn't a weapon.

It is moments like this that make the SNL sketch and the bumper stickers funny.

 

[skater]

Gandhi would not be proud. In order for others to consider your ideas, you would have to refrain from name calling and hysterical generalizations. It just makes you appear petty and mean. Maybe you don't care? And that's fine too. But it's still mean.



Most Americans with plans to travel on the busiest travel day of the year probably purchased their tickets well before the media grabbed this news story and ran with it. How can you come to this conclusion? Now, if these ticket holders boycott the airlines tomorrow and stay home, I will agree that public opinion is changing.

You are really surprised that many Americans are not flying? Imagine this...There may be other reasons why they are not flying. Off the top of my head..the poor economy, no jobs, the high rate of foreclosures in this country. I just heard Pete on the dis podcast say that disney profits were down 7% in the last quarter (even with all the promos and free dining). In 2009 more people drove to their destinations than ever before because they could not afford to fly.

Just because people are not flying, does not mean that eveyone agrees with you.

And you're calling LuvOrlando petty and mean ? Other than that, you have good points about why people may not be flying this holiday.

 

[DMRick]

I see, frankly, I think this 'its all because of the economy' is backpedaling because no-one likes to end up with egg on their face and be proven wrong.

Huh? So, the economy is good, and Disney offered the free dining for no good reason at all? I thought they offered it because the economy tanked and they are trying to get people there.

No back pedaling here. We used to have several more flights out of our airport, but recently, with the economy so bad, they cut routes, to try and get the planes to fly with more people. They were not happy flying them with so many empty seats.

If people that are actually booked start canceling in decent amounts, then I'll believe it's because they don't want to be scanned. People who had no plans to fly anyway, really can't hurt the airlines. If the airlines do start hurting big time, I believe they'll put pressure on for this to be modified.

 

[skater]

Huh? So, the economy is good, and Disney offered the free dining for no good reason at all? I thought they offered it because the economy tanked and they are trying to get people there.

No back pedaling here. We used to have several more flights out of our airport, but recently, with the economy so bad, they cut routes, to try and get the planes to fly with more people. They were not happy flying them with so many empty seats.

If people that are actually booked start canceling in decent amounts, then I'll believe it's because they don't want to be scanned. People who had no plans to fly anyway, really can't hurt the airlines. If the airlines do start hurting big time, I believe they'll put pressure on for this to be modified.

Lots of reasonable points. I wish people would cancel flights, but it sounds like I might be part of the minority point of view .

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Lisa, would they automatically be patting you down even if you went though the scanner? Or do you not want to do that either?

C.Ann, that's too bad about your sister. I'm sure there are reasons for others not to go through the pat down, and it is a choice that has to be made, if there is a reason someone just can't. Maybe you can surprise her by going down there, if you can do the scanner, or really surprise her and take all of you on a road trip (and maybe stop in PA which would be wonderful for you!). I know that won't get a visit with your mom, but I bet she would still love to see the rest of you.

I don't know. It seems that random pat downs are possible. For now, it requires touching my chest in such a way that...ummm...well...I'm gonna leak.

Folks were saying that you if you didn't want to be scanned, there is an alternative. But for some--you're getting that alternative whether you like it or not. Touching my breasts is not a valid alternative.

Back when the whole shoe bomber thing occurred..I got flagged every single time I traveled alone with my children. My husband never did when he flew on business.

And I certainly will not subject my young children to a potential random pat down--a non invasive one or otherwise.

I don't have any place I have to go to in the next several years that I can't drive to as an alternative. So it is fine with me. I don't consider it cutting off my nose so to speak. Air travel is cost prohibitive for us at this point anyway (6 airline tickets ). We have places in the continental us that I we haven't seen, yet. So we can just travel to those like they did back in the olden days . "Are we there, yet?" Air travel is still a luxury for most.

My husband is okay with pat downs and such. So I'll start driving and he can just meet us there. That way my stubborness won't interfere with his vacation time allocation.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Huh? So, the economy is good, and Disney offered the free dining for no good reason at all? I thought they offered it because the economy tanked and they are trying to get people there.

No back pedaling here. We used to have several more flights out of our airport, but recently, with the economy so bad, they cut routes, to try and get the planes to fly with more people. They were not happy flying them with so many empty seats.

If people that are actually booked start canceling in decent amounts, then I'll believe it's because they don't want to be scanned. People who had no plans to fly anyway, really can't hurt the airlines. If the airlines do start hurting big time, I believe they'll put pressure on for this to be modified.

I think the dissent is growing, but for many--mom is going to kill 'em if they don't show up.

But if airlines are offering refunds for cancellations as luvorlando has posted that Delta has done. That isn't the ecomony--that is the dissent. No matter how poor the economy is right now--those non-refundable ticket policies are not flexible at all. For Delta to say they will refund money--that is pretty big. (I haven't checked links or looked into this--just going based on what LuvOrlando has posted.)

 

[C.Ann]

I think the dissent is growing, but for many--mom is going to kill 'em if they don't show up.

But if airlines are offering refunds for cancellations as luvorlando has posted that Delta has done. That isn't the ecomony--that is the dissent. No matter how poor the economy is right now--those non-refundable ticket policies are not flexible at all. For Delta to say they will refund money--that is pretty big. (I haven't checked links or looked into this--just going based on what LuvOrlando has posted.)

The links are out there - and it was on the news tonight, when I happened to flip the t.v. on.. It's a case-by-case basis - and they specifically said it was due to people not wanting to endure these extra hassles simply to fly..

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow - if there's an opt-out or not.. I read somewhere that if there is - even a small number at any given area - it would be so disruptive that it would take 6 hours to screen 100 passengers! That could wreak total havoc with the plans of anyone who plans to fly tomorrow.. (Personally, I don't think the opt-out tomorrow is the best way of addressing these issues.. It's not fair to other flyers who are comfortable with these new procedures and therefore they should not be punished while at the airport..)

 

[skater]

The links are out there - and it was on the news tonight, when I happened to flip the t.v. on.. It's a case-by-case basis - and they specifically said it was due to people not wanting to endure these extra hassles simply to fly..

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow - if there's an opt-out or not.. I read somewhere that if there is - even a small number at any given area - it would be so disruptive that it would take 6 hours to screen 100 passengers! That could wreak total havoc with the plans of anyone who plans to fly tomorrow.. (Personally, I don't think the opt-out tomorrow is the best way of addressing these issues.. It's not fair to other flyers who are comfortable with these new procedures and therefore they should not be punished while at the airport..)

I'm not sure what to wish for. I want people to stand up, but the empathic part of me feels bad for people that just need to see their families.