TSA mess and the police

[JLTraveling]

So all the people quoted, on the record, in newspaper articles, are lying??

And therein lies the problem. Some people are not going to believe documented reports, but they *will* believe reports from people they've never met on a message board? Or if someone shared a personal experience here, would people then accuse that person of lying (yeah, like that's never happened on the DIS)?

In answer to someone upthread, no I haven't experienced the new pat down procedure. I refuse to subject myself to it. But I haven't landed on the moon either, yet I believe those who claim to have been.

To be perfectly clear:

I do not believe that all, most, or even a large percentage of TSA agents are pedophiles, perverts or anything else derogatory. I do believe there is some risk of that sort being attracted to the job now, just like the rash of coaches and scout leaders that were convicted around ten years ago. I hope that the TSA has screening procedures in place to weed those out. For now, I'll assume that they do.

I am not hysterical, panicky or buying into hyperbole. My job function as a phobias writer is to weed through all of that and find the threads of truth, and advise my readers accordingly. As I've stated, both the body scanners and the pat downs are triggers for certain fears. That's my stake in this argument, and it's an undeniable truth.

Beyond that, I am also an American citizen with certain civil liberties. Like those who have gone before me, I am not willing to sit idly back and allow those freedoms to be stripped away slowly, one at a time, in the pursuit of some arbitrary "safety." That's how Nazi Germany began, one teeny step at a time. The SS didn't just spring to life fully formed and killing people in gas chambers. Each little step gradually became the new normal until, finally, exterminating people seemed like just another logical conclusion. For those who say "that'll never happen. It's just more hyperbole," go back and read the discussions that were generated by the Patriot Act, wiretapping, shoe removal...check and see how quickly those who protested and questioned whether we would some day have enhanced pat downs were shut down with the same "panic and hysteria" argument. Yet here we are today.

Always remember: "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." Do you want to live under a Nazi regime? Neither do I.

 

[ccgirl]

And therein lies the problem. Some people are not going to believe documented reports, but they *will* believe reports from people they've never met on a message board? Or if someone shared a personal experience here, would people then accuse that person of lying (yeah, like that's never happened on the DIS)?

For the most part, I don't believe documented reports regardless of where they are written. Whether it be newspapers, books, or message boards. I think people to choose to believe the stories that support their opinions. As I said, I experience something firsthand myself before I develop an opinion. I understand certain people have phobias, or strong objections to these things. That is their right. I feel bad they are unable to fly. It's kind of like someone with claustrophobia flying AirTran. Should they remove seats so the person with claustrophobia can fly. We have a choice when we travel. We can fly, drive, take the train etc. If people decide not to fly due to these new regulations, that is their given right.

 

[C.Ann]

And therein lies the problem. Some people are not going to believe documented reports, but they *will* believe reports from people they've never met on a message board? Or if someone shared a personal experience here, would people then accuse that person of lying (yeah, like that's never happened on the DIS)?

In answer to someone upthread, no I haven't experienced the new pat down procedure. I refuse to subject myself to it. But I haven't landed on the moon either, yet I believe those who claim to have been.

To be perfectly clear:

I do not believe that all, most, or even a large percentage of TSA agents are pedophiles, perverts or anything else derogatory. I do believe there is some risk of that sort being attracted to the job now, just like the rash of coaches and scout leaders that were convicted around ten years ago. I hope that the TSA has screening procedures in place to weed those out. For now, I'll assume that they do.

I am not hysterical, panicky or buying into hyperbole. My job function as a phobias writer is to weed through all of that and find the threads of truth, and advise my readers accordingly. As I've stated, both the body scanners and the pat downs are triggers for certain fears. That's my stake in this argument, and it's an undeniable truth.

Beyond that, I am also an American citizen with certain civil liberties. Like those who have gone before me, I am not willing to sit idly back and allow those freedoms to be stripped away slowly, one at a time, in the pursuit of some arbitrary "safety." That's how Nazi Germany began, one teeny step at a time. The SS didn't just spring to life fully formed and killing people in gas chambers. Each little step gradually became the new normal until, finally, exterminating people seemed like just another logical conclusion. For those who say "that'll never happen. It's just more hyperbole," go back and read the discussions that were generated by the Patriot Act, wiretapping, shoe removal...check and see how quickly those who protested and questioned whether we would some day have enhanced pat downs were shut down with the same "panic and hysteria" argument. Yet here we are today.
Always remember: "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." Do you want to live under a Nazi regime? Neither do I.

Another excellent post.. (Bolding mine - parts I agree with 100%..)

 

[rie'smom]

So all the people quoted, on the record, in newspaper articles, are lying??

Next week we're flying. According to the parameters set by some on the thread, if my daughter gets pulled for a search, I had better film it or else it will be considered second hand testimony and not 100% believable. Until the doubters are searched themselves, we're all a bunch of nutjobs. Oh and I discussed this with my daughter. She can fart at will. I feel sorry for anyone who does a search of her. After all, it can be an involuntary response in a stressful situation, right?

And therein lies the problem. Some people are not going to believe documented reports, but they *will* believe reports from people they've never met on a message board? Or if someone shared a personal experience here, would people then accuse that person of lying (yeah, like that's never happened on the DIS)?

In answer to someone upthread, no I haven't experienced the new pat down procedure. I refuse to subject myself to it. But I haven't landed on the moon either, yet I believe those who claim to have been.

To be perfectly clear:

I do not believe that all, most, or even a large percentage of TSA agents are pedophiles, perverts or anything else derogatory. I do believe there is some risk of that sort being attracted to the job now, just like the rash of coaches and scout leaders that were convicted around ten years ago. I hope that the TSA has screening procedures in place to weed those out. For now, I'll assume that they do.

I am not hysterical, panicky or buying into hyperbole. My job function as a phobias writer is to weed through all of that and find the threads of truth, and advise my readers accordingly. As I've stated, both the body scanners and the pat downs are triggers for certain fears. That's my stake in this argument, and it's an undeniable truth.

Beyond that, I am also an American citizen with certain civil liberties. Like those who have gone before me, I am not willing to sit idly back and allow those freedoms to be stripped away slowly, one at a time, in the pursuit of some arbitrary "safety." That's how Nazi Germany began, one teeny step at a time. The SS didn't just spring to life fully formed and killing people in gas chambers. Each little step gradually became the new normal until, finally, exterminating people seemed like just another logical conclusion. For those who say "that'll never happen. It's just more hyperbole," go back and read the discussions that were generated by the Patriot Act, wiretapping, shoe removal...check and see how quickly those who protested and questioned whether we would some day have enhanced pat downs were shut down with the same "panic and hysteria" argument. Yet here we are today.

Always remember: "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." Do you want to live under a Nazi regime? Neither do I.

Sorry, you're an American citizen who used to have civil liberties. The Patriot Act is an exercise in government's ability to take away our liberty.

 

[CathrynRose]

Next week we're flying. According to the parameters set by some on the thread, if my daughter gets pulled for a search, I had better film it or else it will be considered second hand testimony and not 100% believable. Until the doubters are searched themselves, we're all a bunch of nutjobs. Oh and I discussed this with my daughter. She can fart at will. I feel sorry for anyone who does a search of her. After all, it can be an involuntary response in a stressful situation, right?

Bold = LOL!

Will you be allowed to video a "TSA Procedure"??? I mean, this is a government security measure. Will that be allowed? You can't record a police officer, doing an arrest, legally.

 

[ccgirl]

Next week we're flying. According to the parameters set by some on the thread, if my daughter gets pulled for a search, I had better film it or else it will be considered second hand testimony and not 100% believable. Until the doubters are searched themselves, we're all a bunch of nutjobs. Oh and I discussed this with my daughter. She can fart at will. I feel sorry for anyone who does a search of her. After all, it can be an involuntary response in a stressful situation, right?



Sorry, you're an American citizen who used to have civil liberties. The Patriot Act is an exercise in government's ability to take away our liberty.

Please post back with the outcome. As some who is opposed to this; I am very interested in your first hand experience and what you thought once you were subjected to this. Thanks.

 

[bicker]

Sigh. Discourse works better than hyperbole.

The sad part is that that's not true: People engage in hyperbole, deception, and all manner of manipulation because it works, because through these scurrilous means they have a superior chance of imposing their personal preference more widely than is warranted, and they have a superior chance of trumping rational logic and what's best for society overall. The more salacious, extreme or otherwise sensational an argument is, the more likely that the person presenting that argument is simply trying to trick you into thinking that they have a point, when in reality they don't, and they just want their way to prevail regardless.

It's called politics.

 

[Muushka]

Benjamin Franklin once said:

Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.

We are supposed to fly next year. I will not submit to these personal invasions. Yes, I have a choice. We will not fly.

 

[sbell111]

Beyond that, I am also an American citizen with certain civil liberties. Like those who have gone before me, I am not willing to sit idly back and allow those freedoms to be stripped away slowly, one at a time, in the pursuit of some arbitrary "safety." That's how Nazi Germany began, one teeny step at a time. The SS didn't just spring to life fully formed and killing people in gas chambers. Each little step gradually became the new normal until, finally, exterminating people seemed like just another logical conclusion. For those who say "that'll never happen. It's just more hyperbole," go back and read the discussions that were generated by the Patriot Act, wiretapping, shoe removal...check and see how quickly those who protested and questioned whether we would some day have enhanced pat downs were shut down with the same "panic and hysteria" argument. Yet here we are today.

Always remember: "Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it." Do you want to live under a Nazi regime? Neither do I.

Given that none of us have the Constitutional right to board an aircraft without going through security checks, it really is just hyperbole.

 

[rie'smom]

Bold = LOL!

Will you be allowed to video a "TSA Procedure"??? I mean, this is a government security measure. Will that be allowed? You can't record a police officer, doing an arrest, legally.

I doubt seriously that you can film them if they know you're doing it. There are surreptitious ways though.

Please post back with the outcome. As some who is opposed to this; I am very interested in your first hand experience and what you thought once you were subjected to this. Thanks.

I definitely will post and hopefully we will not be subjected to the police state tactics.

 

[punkin]

Sigh.

Discourse works better than hyperbole.

Not picking on you particularly, but I did notice that some posters are calling other posters "hysterical". Is that discourse or hyperbole?

 

[sbell111]

Benjamin Franklin once said:

Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.

We are supposed to fly next year. I will not submit to these personal invasions. Yes, I have a choice. We will not fly.

Ben Franklin never actually said that. What he said was "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." and "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." and "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Of course, none of that was referring to the requirement to go through a relatively minor security check which violated no Constitutional freedoms to ensure that large amounts of Americans did not die.

 

[sbell111]

The sad part is that that's not true: People engage in hyperbole, deception, and all manner of manipulation because it works, because through these scurrilous means they have a superior chance of imposing their personal preference more widely than is warranted, and they have a superior chance of trumping rational logic and what's best for society overall. The more salacious, extreme or otherwise sensational an argument is, the more likely that the person presenting that argument is simply trying to trick you into thinking that they have a point, when in reality they don't, and they just want their way to prevail regardless.

It's called politics.

We've seen that in this very thread over and over and over. The sad thing is it works.

 

[sbell111]

I emailed our Senators night before last and I encourage those of you who object to the new procedures to do the same:

Representatives:
http://www.house.gov/

Senators:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Something tells me that no member of Congress is going to submit a bill that requires a reduction in airport security.

 

[bicker]

We've seen that in this very thread over and over and over. The sad thing is it works.

There was actually a good example of it in this weeks The Good Wife.

Something tells me that no member of Congress is going to submit a bill that requires a reduction in airport security.

I wouldn't be so sure... they'll lick their finger, stick it up in the air, and check which way the wind is blowing. That's the problem. It's the old "think of the children!" trick, repackaged. Nobody really cares about the objectives that what they're attacking is fulfilling; they only care about their own objectives to attack what they simply don't like, personally.

 

[ccgirl]

Not picking on you particularly, but I did notice that some posters are calling other posters "hysterical". Is that discourse or hyperbole?

Just wanted to go on record...I didnot say a poster was "hysterical". I said I did not want to give in to the mass hysteria. I would rather experience it first hand and make up my mind myself. I actually did experience it (sorry..my DH did but I watched ) and did not see anything invasive about it.

 

[punkin]

Just wanted to go on record...I didnot say a poster was "hysterical". I said I did not want to give in to the mass hysteria. I would rather experience it first hand and make up my mind myself. I actually did experience it (sorry..my DH did but I watched ) and did not see anything invasive about it.

OK, someone (well many someones) has a different opinion, and you call it mass hysteria. I ask again, is that discourse or hyperbole?

 

[Muushka]

Ben Franklin never actually said that. What he said was "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." and "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." and "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Of course, none of that was referring to the requirement to go through a relatively minor security check which violated no Constitutional freedoms to ensure that large amounts of Americans did not die.

Thank you for the exact quotes. I personally do not consider the checks that they are performing to be minor.
But we will have to agree to disagree.

By the way, for those who have absolutely no problem with this, what else are you willing to give up for security?

 

[LuvOrlando]

double post

 

[LuvOrlando]

I'm kind of stunned by the number of people who are choosing to take up a pro position about the new searches and radioactive body scans. I respect people's right to disagree but I really don't get the why behind it.

If someone could tell my where the proof is these measures will make us safer then I guess it could be debatable in my own mind. But that's not what is happening. You pro folks are more interested in telling me how come it's not a legal issue than in telling me why it's the right approach. We can argue day and night about that and it's obvious that this is absolutely going to have to be decided in the Supreme Court, the sooner the better IMO, but that's not really the issue is it.

Why, why, why should this be done?

Telling me it's to keep us safe isn't enough because I already feel safe. Nothing has happened recently to make me think i was less safe in July than I am now in November. So again WHY are these measures better than the measures of a few months ago?

FYI, even if someone comes up with a reason I'm still flat out NOT flying with my kids because I reject the idea touching my kids or exposing them to radiation is an acceptable risk. Still, as a thoughtful person I am open to reason in a theoretical sense.

But here's the kicker, I haven't heard anything substantial about a good WHY yet. People keep arguing whether or not my reason for being upset is valid and I won't get side tracked by that. As for the idea that 'just because the experts say so" being good enough for me, it's not. The 'experts' get caught in lie after lie after lie, they have used up all my good faith and have no credibility with me anymore. IF anyone wants me to get behind this mess they need to make an argument TO ME so I can make up my own mind, and it better be a good argument because so far, "Because we say so" isn't working. I'm not buying what they are selling and just so you don't call me egocentric, take a look at the news because I'm definitely NOT the only one who feels this way.