TSA mess and the police

[TheZue]

Well, I think profiling would be a good start, rather than making a big show of patting down disabled women in wheelchairs and flight attendants and children for the sake of political correctness, but realistically I don't believe the government can stop the next 9/11. The very nature of terrorism is far more adaptable than any government endeavor, and there are ways around any precaution we take (particularly when the precautions are as well-publicized as this one). I seriously doubt the "next 9/11" if/when it comes will have anything to do with passenger air travel at all; we've focused so much of our attention on that aspect of the attacks that we're all but ignoring other vulnerabilities. Which isn't to say we should ignore airport security altogether, but we should be stepping back and taking a big-picture approach rather than the series of increasingly invasive knee-jerk responses to threats and failed plots.

I think people assume profiling means banning the middle eastern looking people from the plane or giving them all a good cavity search. Really it means observing people and looking for people who are showing signs of being nervous, or acting strangely. But that would require a lot more training than they are willing to pay for now.

 

[ccgirl]

Me too. Oh, yes, yes - to keep us safe.

I'd rather take my chances with the 'no grope' security, than the tummy circle, down to the crotch, up into my back touch, done to me or my family - which I CAN DO, if I go ahead and book first class. My g/f just whipped on through security.... A fast pass of sorts, if you pay enough.

I wonder if The Terrorists will pay extra for this convenient blow-up service?

I thought I had read - and this is before the enhanced touchie-feelies, that people had reported being ....pretty much strip searched. Did they have to cough and squat? No. But it was a back room, where they searched.

I'll look for that....

And the reason I'd believe this is simple... let's say they found a grenade under a man's "stuff".

Is it "Oh, you have a grenade. We have to take this. No flying with grenades!" Like it's a soda?? I doubt it.

Is it "Oh, you have a grenade. You're going to have to leave now. Try the busses or a train, buddy. Good luck!" I doubt that, too.

My Aunt always flies first class and is still subjected to the same type of security. How would the screeners know if you are flying first class or not? You show your boarding pass before you get into the screening line so the screeners never see it. I think your g/f may have just gotten a lax TSA agent. As you can see from various reports, it appears some are more thorough than others.

Man this is a HOT issue!! I can tell you that I'm VERY upset that we are all accepting of our selves and ESPECIALLY our kids to have someone other than our friendly family doctor touch in places we teach our kids it is NOT ok to be touched!!! I'm not blaming the specific TSA agents, I'm blaming the government (Big Brother) that is CONDITIONING our children that it is a 'normal' thing for strangers to touch private body parts. We adults still remember a free and open society, so we fight it. The kids dont. They accept whatever they are told. It really saddens me. I cant imagine WHY a 9 year old boy or 12 year old girl would be suspected of trying to smuggle a weapon on a plane. This is SIMPLE CONDITIONING.....What comes next? Cavity searches on our CHILDREN???!!! I am infuriated. If anyone knows where we can write or e-mail to complain, please PLEASE let me know. (guess we'll be driving 24 hrs to Disney...)

Because some of us are not seeing this as sexual at all. BTW, a "friendly" family doctor in my town just got convicted of child molestation. I cannot speak for others but I am certainly not conditioning my child that it is normal for strangers to touch their body parts. TSA are not touching body parts just for the pleasure of touching body parts. They are simply doing a pat down. As far as why a 9 or 12 year old child would be capable of smuggling anything on board...you can thank parents that use their children as pawns. My cousin was in Afghanistan and was on a base when a parent came in with a 3 year old seeking "refuge". Little did they know, an explosive was hidden in the 3 year old. Luckily, they found it. So...yes....just like racial profiling we shouldn't have age profiling. Then, the ACLU would be all over that too!

As far as who to complain to, it was suggested earlier to complain to your senator and representative to Congress.

 

[AKL_Megs]

And you know what bothers me, as well?

I've seen people pulled aside several times (before enhanced pat downs - my last flight was October 26th). The people are visibly annoyed, however more compliant than when a police officer pulls someone over ("Mind telling me what I did? What did you pull me over? I was not speeding!")

It's disturbing.

'Cause it's not gonna cost them money when the TSA pulls them aside

 

[Colleen27]

Do you really think watching out for the last attack is really making ANYONE safe? They are already past the underwear plan, and I'm guessing they are probably looking at freight alone right now, we know they are looking at it a bit after the whole printer ink plot..

I personally don't think these last couple of "plots" were ever intended as anything more than distractions to keep us looking intently at the system they've already utilized and therefore less likely to notice the system they plan to use next. For a group of people dedicated and patient enough to carry out 9/11 to suddenly be sending lone individuals who don't even know how to properly detonate the devices they carry just screams "diversion" to me.

 

[marcyinPA]

I flew to Anaheim and back last week, and my suitcase was "searched" on the trip home.

I also got "felt up" by a female TSA agent after I walked through the metal detector. I made a joke about it to my co-worker who I was traveling with, but honestly, it is a little violating. I understand the WHY, but I still don't like having my personal space invaded. It would be different, though, if EVERYONE were patted down. But to just pick randomly...well, how effective can that be? One of these days, they are going to miss THE ONE.

 

[CathrynRose]

My Aunt always flies first class and is still subjected to the same type of security. How would the screeners know if you are flying first class or not? You show your boarding pass before you get into the screening line so the screeners never see it. I think your g/f may have just gotten a lax TSA agent. As you can see from various reports, it appears some are more thorough than others..

She gets to use the AA special fancy schmancy "no wait" line - which does not (at O'Hare airport) have a Nude Scanner.

 

[skater]

I agree with minkydog 100%.

It's really not that big a deal, people. It's 2 minutes out of your day. It'll be alright. Flying isn't a right, it's a privilege, and if you don't like having to clear security, don't fly, because you don't have a choice.

I'll take a 20 second patdown by another female than take my car across the country ANY day. If you'd rather drive to the MOON than endure such a treacherous patdown, then drive!

Complaining isn't going to change anything!

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so maybe this is redundant to what others have already said. It is a big deal to me when I have to put my 16 year old DD through this. We actually drove to Disney recently partly to avoid this mess although it sounds like its gotten worse since then. My DD and I are flying this winter for a mom/daughter trip and I feel a little worried for her. I think its a huge invasion of privacy and I hope the ACLU is on this one. I don't want my DD touched by anybody at this point in her life and neither does she.

Also, complaining can change things. You're right when you say that we can drive (sometimes that's true) and avoid this. If enough people who had a choice started driving, the airlines would scream loud enough that things could change. I think its scary if we all go along with this like sheep. And tell me how this would have prevented the "underwear bomber" from boarding?

 

[skater]

Well, I think profiling would be a good start, rather than making a big show of patting down disabled women in wheelchairs and flight attendants and children for the sake of political correctness, but realistically I don't believe the government can stop the next 9/11. The very nature of terrorism is far more adaptable than any government endeavor, and there are ways around any precaution we take (particularly when the precautions are as well-publicized as this one). I seriously doubt the "next 9/11" if/when it comes will have anything to do with passenger air travel at all; we've focused so much of our attention on that aspect of the attacks that we're all but ignoring other vulnerabilities. Which isn't to say we should ignore airport security altogether, but we should be stepping back and taking a big-picture approach rather than the series of increasingly invasive knee-jerk responses to threats and failed plots.

Well said.

 

[CathrynRose]

And why can't you or a TSA agent gather your items, that have passed inspection in the XRay machine, and wind up at the end of the belt?

This whole thing has be riled up. I'm glad I don't have anything booked in the very near future.

 

[CathrynRose]

And I read about them testing/looking for some sort of breast implant explosive??

How are they differentiating between the implants that blow up and the implants that just make you look good?

Is there something in the explosive ones? Do they have to squeeze them to find it?

 

[skater]

I fly statebound about 3-5 times a year and overseas an average of once a year. The pat downs I have received overseas are alot more stringent then the ones in the states (and I still didn't have an issue with it).

I like the poster's comment about "I'd rather get felt up then blown up" - I need to make a T-Shirt with that and wear when I am traveling.

I would personally rather take that risk of getting "blown up" than have my privacy invaded and my daughter feeling violated. Now, if the pat down and/or full body scanner was 100% guaranteed to prevent being blown up, I might come to grips with it - maybe.

 

[CathrynRose]

CAnn - I found this:

I just experienced my first "enhanced" pat down yesterday at the Baltimore airport for refusing to be radiated in the TSA nude-o-scope. As others have observed, there was an instant, palpable negative attitude towards me by the TSA agents for my choosing a pat down instead. They kept referring to me as "a refusal", and I believe there is an attempt to punish people for not complying with orders. After waiting and not being allowed to gather my belongings I went off for my enhanced pat down. The TSA agents apparently were not aware of something called a bra strap, so I was then escorted to a "private area" where I had to remove my shirt in front of two TSA agents. The whole thing took about 25 minutes, and it was humiliating and an absolute outrage. I had tears running down my face -- from both anger and sadness.

It's someone's account of what happened, so whether or not it's truth - we don't know. But this woman says she did, indeed, have to remove clothing.

 

[JLTraveling]

I'm going to go way out on a radical limb here, so I'll go ahead and don the flameproof suit. I think we should return to PRE-9/11 airport security standards. Here is exactly why:

1) Pretty much every government official and 9/11 commission on earth has come to the same conclusion: 9/11 fundamentally occurred because of a lack of communication. The information was there, but lots of different agencies around the world each had a PIECE of it. Had they all communicated effectively, they could have stopped the attack.

2) The 9/11 hijackers had BOX CUTTERS. They didn't have some sophisticated indefensible weapon. What they preyed on was the general public's understanding of terrorism at that time, which went roughly like this: 99% of the time, the terrorists don't want to die either. They want money or the release of prisoners or something. So they'll hijack a plane, divert it to another country and everybody on board will sit there for a few days while everyone negotiates. Sit down, shut up, do what you're told and you'll get home alive. Hence why no one fought back until the plane they took down in Pennsylvania. Knowing what we know now, it's patently obvious that we as passengers have to fight. Do you really think a couple of bad guys could take down a plane with box cutters today?

3) In the highly unlikely event that they do invent that superweapon that can't be easily overcome by a coordinated hand to hand effort between passengers, shouldn't somebody on the dang plane have SOME way to fight back? I don't think flying with guns or knives is smart, but golly gee, self-defense classes teach us to use our car keys or purses to subdue a bad guy. Knitting needles or a multi-tool aren't very effective for taking down a plane anymore (see point 2), but could theoretically be used as part of a counter-attack. There's way more regular passengers on a plane than bad guys. But the bad guys are going to find a way to sneak on whatever they like, while the good guys sit there entirely defenseless and terrified of our own shadows.

4) I think somebody already touched on this earlier, but what's to stop a terrorist from entering the unsecure part of the airport with an AK-47 and mowing down the line of helpless people stuck at the TSA checkpoint? They don't care about airplanes, they care about wreaking havoc.

In what alternate universe is all of this security theater POSSIBLY doing anything to actually make flying safer? Use metal detectors and dogs to take out the obvious and more likely threats, and focus our anti-terrorism efforts where it counts--in preventing the attacks before the attackers ever reach the airport.

 

[Anjelica]

I would personally rather take that risk of getting "blown up" than have my privacy invaded and my daughter feeling violated. Now, if the pat down and/or full body scanner was 100% guaranteed to prevent being blown up, I might come to grips with it - maybe.

That's the problem - there is no 100% guarantee on anything related to stopping terrorism on airplanes and getting blown up - EXCEPT not flying. Can we fault them for trying to make it safer??? I'm sure many would fault them IF somethinig else did happen, etc.

 

[mhsjax]

That's the problem - there is no 100% guarantee on anything related to stopping terrorism on airplanes and getting blown up - EXCEPT not flying. Can we fault them for trying to make it safer??? I'm sure many would fault them IF somethinig else did happen, etc.

Yeah, but not flying didn't work out too well for all of those poor people in the World Trade Center did it? Just didn't want to forget them or the firefighters that lost their lives. In my humble opinion, airplanes, been there and done that,( not trying to be uncaring) but I think terrorists will move onto something else, something we don't expect. I know that I wouldn't want the job of trying to keep the country safe.

 

[Anjelica]

Yeah, but not flying didn't work out too well for all of those poor people in the World Trade Center did it? Just didn't want to forget them or the firefighters that lost their lives. In my humble opinion, airplanes, been there and done that,( not trying to be uncaring) but I think terrorists will move onto something else, something we don't expect.

Yes I remember those images vividly - like the lady who made the sign of the cross right before she jumped to her death rather than burn. I get it - but my point - almost nothing is 100% guaranteed and if you are afraid of being blown up in an airplane than don't fly - that is almost 100% guaranteed - if you don't fly you won't get blown up in an airplane.

You aren't going to appease everyone no matter WHAT the (government) does. If they pull back on the things they think may work and something goes wrong they get blamed, if some folks feel they are overreaching they get all kinds of grief. It's really a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

Funny thing is, most of the world is pretty darn strict about airline travel especially compared to the states but I have yet to see or hear about the outrage in those countries - sometimes we forget that even post-9/11 we really do still have some of the most liberal "freedoms" compared to alot of other countries. Does that mean we have to be like them no, but sometimes its good to copy the lesson plans that work (think Israel, etc.).

Do I think the patdowns, body imaging, etc. is necessarily the best way to go - I can't say. I am not an expert in any of those areas, etc. and I'm guessing most of us aren't. It is easy for us to second guess every decision the TSA makes as good or bad - but as anyone knows any time there is human involvement we will never reach 100% perfection.

 

[RitaE]

Personally, I would have much rather have seen all the money spent on those Full Body Scanners be invested in measures to inspect the cargo carried in the bottom of the planes.

I think there have been things done post 9/11 which do increase safety. Undercover Air Marshals. Reinforced cockpit doors. I was all for the allowing pilots who are certified and trained to carry handguns.

Do I feel one tiny bit safer after seeing an 8year old girl traveling with her Mom, Dad, and two brothers to Disney world randomly pulled from the security line and given a pat down?

Not even one little bit. In fact, I think it is downright ridiculous.

To tell you the truth, I'm more than willing to take my chances that the little 3rd grader isn't planning to blow me to smithereens at 30,000 feet. Maybe the plane should take a vote on it before we decide whether or not to conduct the cavity search on her.

 

[CathrynRose]

OMgosh - LOL! - These clothes appear plain....until you get in the scanner.

http://www.bodyscannerattitude.com/

 

[gate_pourri]

I was patted-down 3 days ago at O'Hare and am going to jump on the bandwagon of not such a big deal. But than again, I was pretty excited when I got randomly selected to go through the new x-rays last month. I wanted to try it out for myself and see what all the hoopla was about.

I've flown 8 times since October 15th (2 times inner-US, once US-EU, once EU-US and 4 times inner Europe) and by FAR the worst patdown I got was an inner-Europe flight out of Naples Italy. The patdown lasted about 4 minutes. Besides the typical patdown, arms, legs, etc. my 'girls' were both squeezed and my vajaja was briefly felt. You know what? I joked with my travel friend that I wish the security lady had bought me a drink first, and than went on my way. Not having given it a second thought until this thread.

In comparison, my patdown at O'Hare a few days ago was pretty plebeian. The 'girls' were briefly patted (not squeezed like in Naples) and my whole vajaja area was never touched: The closest they came to that area was patting the inner thigh. The whole thing lasted maybe a minute and a half and I was on my way.

Another comparison - I had jury duty yesterday and went through the scanner at lunch and beeped. The patdow I received at the county courthouse was almost identical as O'Hare.

 

[Magpie]

And if the attendant hadn't been friendly, but gruff, scary, barking orders? Or your daughter was scared and crying? Or perhaps autistic, and can't handle being touched?

If the TSA scanner grabbed her crotch area 4 times so hard your child almost burst into tears from pain? All being reported around the Interet.

Just because your experience was good one -thank goodness - doesn't discount the many stories already flying around -- and this process just started a few days ago.

Says a lot that the PILOTS unions and Flight attendants are calling foul.

That's exactly what I said. I wrote: "I'm not going to pretend any of us are typical travellers, or that our experience in any way invalidates anyone else's. After all, our agent was very nice, while the other one sounds rather intimidating and rude."

As for the "grabbed her crotch area 4 times" tale - can you link to a source? Lots of stories fly around the internet, some are true and some aren't. Without knowing where they come from, it's impossible to judge.

Magpie, your daughter's pat down did not happen in the US. Does TSA run things up in Canada too? I doubt it.

No, but from the sound of things, it was the same pat down, which is why I wrote about it.

Ottawa's airport has a bit of a reputation for going overboard in the security department, and it has for a long time. Periodically stories end up in the media, with the traumatized people telling us how they were abused by security. And I don't mean a friendly pat down. I mean full on strip searches. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/12/18/ottawa-airport-strip-search-follo.html

My 65 year old mother was once delayed for over an hour by Ottawa security, and we thought she'd missed her plane! They were making her count all her money in front of them, for some reason.

Basically, our security makes your TSA look like wusses... I mean, totally reasonable, civilized souls.