TSA mess and the police

[CathrynRose]

TSA Forces Mother in Wheelchair to Tears with "Enhanced Patdown" Portland ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlXPIgwSKIk

I mean, really? This is okay???

 

[mhsjax]

I don't blame the agents, but I'd have a very hard time telling my children that they should be still and submit to the sort of patdowns being described in the complaints about the new policies. We talk to our kids about good touch/bad touch and that no one should be touching certain parts of their bodies, and then we're supposed to turn around and tell them it is okay just this once to let the TSA agent feel our privates if we want to go to Disney World? I do see a problem with that.

Exactly, and I have a bigger problem, and that would be how to keep my fist from connecting with their face when they touched my child in that way.

 

[NHdisneylover]

The kids and I fly 3-5 round trips per year and my husband flies nearly every week. In all of that time we have encountered 2 and only 2 rude TSA agents (and they were rude--not abusive). Also several rude passport control agents (why is that?--Oralndo is the worst--what an awful "Welcome" to our country there). Mostly we encounter either very neutral of else actually kind people at security.

I haven't had a new style pat down in the USA yet but I am not that worried about them. I doubt they are much different than the pat downs many places here in Europe have been doing for years. Like Jennassis says, there is a huge difference between a pat down and abuse and trying to equate the two really minimizes true abuse.

BTW--yes I have kids and yes both have had pat downs--DS seems to set off the scanners in Amsterdam every time (no idea why) and always ends up with one. It is not groping and there is nothing sexual about it.

 

[mhsjax]

To the first part, I suppose it's likely because the front of one's hand is better able to feel for foreign objects since it's much more sensitive than the back of the hand.

To the second part, I understand. I feel differently. And as a victim of childhood molestation I can say I am able to distinguish the difference between the thorough pat-down and the horror I suffered for years as a kid. It actually sickens me a bit to see people try to equate the two. But hey, there is no issue on earth that will ever find universal acceptance.

Even my color blind husband occassionally argues with me that the sky isn't blue.

I am really sorry that you suffered from abuse, but my kid hasn't and he or she may NOT be able to distinguish between the two, and I am sorry that it sickens you, but these kids are innocent and they should not have to be exposed to this either. And I agree with you , it isn't the same, yet. Some time it may be, The gov't isn't exactly on the ball and I guarantee you that before long they will have hired some idiot that is a molester and either they didn't do a thorough background check or he or she hasn't been caught yet. I can handle it for me, but touch my kids and I will go insane.

 

[mhsjax]

The kids and I fly 3-5 round trips per year and my husband flies nearly every week. In all of that time we have encountered 2 and only 2 rude TSA agents (and they were rude--not abusive). Also several rude passport control agents (why is that?--Oralndo is the worst--what an awful "Welcome" to our country there). Mostly we encounter either very neutral of else actually kind people at security.

I haven't had a new style pat down in the USA yet but I am not that worried about them. I doubt they are much different than the pat downs many places here in Europe have been doing for years. Like Jennassis says, there is a huge difference between a pat down and abuse and trying to equate the two really minimizes true abuse.

BTW--yes I have kids and yes both have had pat downs--DS seems to set off the scanners in Amsterdam every time (no idea why) and always ends up with one. It is not groping and there is nothing sexual about it.

HOw do you know it isn't. Sorry but the sickos can get a job with the gov't. They will have some at some point, it is just a matter of time.

we all know that profiling is wrong, but go ahead and grope kids that is ok. Geez, Ain't happening here. but that is ok, DH won't fly anymore anyway.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I am really sorry that you suffered from abuse, but my kid hasn't and he or she may NOT be able to distinguish between the two, and I am sorry that it sickens you, but these kids are innocent and they should not have to be exposed to this either. And I agree with you , it isn't the same, yet. Some time it may be, The gov't isn't exactly on the ball and I guarantee you that before long they will have hired some idiot that is a molester and either they didn't do a thorough background check or he or she hasn't been caught yet. I can handle it for me, but touch my kids and I will go insane.

My kid had no problem realizing it wasn't. He took his queue from me I think. Also, any time we have talked about inappropriate touching we have qualified it by professionals doing their jobs (like doctors during an exam or TSA agents at security) is different. Sort of like taking drugs is not okay--except OTC things used according to direction when sick and prescription things used as prescribed. Kids are pretty capable of understanding that some things are okay only in certain situations.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Everytime you refer to people being "groped" by a TSA agent you DO come off as a wee-bit paranoid, inflammatory and confrontational...at least IMHO.

I ABSOLUTELY understand your unwillingness to be touched by another individual, and I understand your reluctance to submit to the "x-ray". However you've offered no alternative and neither has anyone else. Since you are so against the current practices in place it would seem that for now, you will have to refrain from flying. If that isn't an option, I can only suggest going in to the screening process with open-eyes and a vigilant but compliant nature. Document any instance you deem out of order or illegal, speak to a supervisor if necessary (if something untoward does happen) and be prepared to bring the instances to the attention of a good lawyer and the media.

Really, I don't know what else to tell you. it is what it is...isn't it?

Like I said previously, what they were doing a year ago, even 6 months ago was obviously working because our planes have remained really safe considering the volume of people flying. Why not stick with that?

As for reporting situations where things go wrong, that's part of the problem. It appears as though nothing bad ever happens to bad agents, that's part of what is coming out in the news now. This is why in my original post I wondered out loud who is responsible for these people and whether or not we can, as citizens, file criminal assault charges against them.

It would be nice to think ALL TSA agents are wonderful flawless people but if history has taught us anything it's that some people in authority will choose to abuse that authority and with the unilateral control the agents have right now the arrangement seems to raise some serious ethical and legal concerns.

 

[CathrynRose]

 

[mhsjax]

My kid had no problem realizing it wasn't. He took his queue from me I think. Also, any time we have talked about inappropriate touching we have qualified it by professionals doing their jobs (like doctors during an exam or TSA agents at security) is different. Sort of like taking drugs is not okay--except OTC things used according to direction when sick and prescription things used as prescribed. Kids are pretty capable of understanding that some things are okay only in certain situations.

Problem is, these people aren't professionals they are regular people like us. Nothing special and in no way have the right to do more than a normal pat down.

Don't kid yourself, they aren't police or highly trained professionals at all. Again, I won't fly because if they touched my DD on her chest or private area either me or DH would probably be in jail. Same for DS, it isn't happening. There isn't any place that I need to see that is worth that. If my kids decide they want to fly later in life then fine, but I not expose my kids to it because I want to go somewhere.

My opinion and others are free to get groped if they like but I choose not to.

 

[NHdisneylover]

HOw do you know it isn't. Sorry but the sickos can get a job with the gov't. They will have some at some point, it is just a matter of time.

we all know that profiling is wrong, but go ahead and grope kids that is ok. Geez, Ain't happening here. but that is ok, DH won't fly anymore anyway.

Because I am right there seeing it. it is over in seconds and not that big of a deal. I suppose it is possible the screener is also enjoying it--doubtful but okay I will give you that possibility. It still does not mean the touch is inappropriate in the situation (ie it is still due to a security flag--alarm went off going through detector or person did not want to go through the full body scanner when randomly selected to do so and still done in the same manner as all the screens like this are).

 

[NHdisneylover]

Problem is, these people aren't professionals they are regular people like us. Nothing special and in no way have the right to do more than a normal pat down.

Don't kid yourself, they aren't police or highly trained professionals at all. Again, I won't fly because if they touched my DD on her chest or private area either me or DH would probably be in jail. Same for DS, it isn't happening.

I have a hard time believing that there is not the slightest bit of training for how to do a pat down. They are pretty much always in the same order and handled the same every where so there must be some. It probably only takes 10 minutes to teach--nothing requiring a degree, but there has to be some training. How much "skill" do you really think it requires?

IF everyone employed by TSA were police officers would you feel better about it?

Degreed doctors?

Do you feel only poorly educated people are molesters? I have not ever heard that.

 

[cm8]

 

[mhsjax]

Because I am right there seeing it. it is over in seconds and not that big of a deal. I suppose it is possible the screener is also enjoying it--doubtful but okay I will give you that possibility. It still does not mean the touch is inappropriate in the situation (ie it is still due to a security flag--alarm went off going through detector or person did not want to go through the full body scanner when randomly selected to do so and still done in the same manner as all the screens like this are).

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

These agents spent years barely scanning luggage and not even looking at the scanner at the luggage went by, they could have cared less. This is the type of individual that is feeling you up. They have no business, Now, if they want to train some Dr's in how to do this, then fine, but sorry Jane and Joe off the street isn't feeling up anyone in my family.

 

[CathrynRose]

Don't kid yourself, they aren't police or highly trained professionals at all.

I saw it referred to as "A $12/hr Goverment Worker Security Theater Production. Enjoy!"

That sums it up.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

Well, I can understand how you feel so strongly about it too. I just think at that point you either decide the full body scans are okay or you decide not to fly.
Either way, I feel it IS wrong to those who have truly suffered abuse to call this the same thing.

 

[mhsjax]

I saw it referred to as "A $12/hr Goverment Worker Security Theater Production. Enjoy!"

That sums it up.

Pretty much.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I understand where you are coming from, I also understand that no one is going to touch my 11 yo DD breasts and crouch, no way, no how. Again same for DS. And according to some of these reports, it doesn't matter what the person wants. did you see the youtube about the man's mother in the wheel chair? There was no excuse for that, and yes I do believe that this did, can, and will happen again.

These agents spent years barely scanning luggage and not even looking at the scanner at the luggage went by, they could have cared less. This is the type of individual that is feeling you up. They have no business, Now, if they want to train some Dr's in how to do this, then fine, but sorry Jane and Joe off the street isn't feeling up anyone in my family.

You added that second paragraph while I was posting. So, you are not concerned about DRs "groping" your child at security? They are totally safe? I am honestly curious where you draw the line in deciding who is safe in such a job and who is not

 

[mhsjax]

Well, I can understand how you feel so strongly about it too. I just think at that point you either decide the full body scans are okay or you decide not to fly.
Either way, I feel it IS wrong to those who have truly suffered abuse to call this the same thing.

I actually don't mind the scan that much, but apparently sometimes you aren't given a choice. That I do have a problem with. Just no touchy.

My point about abuse, is, What if you DS is being patted down, Joe gets a little to personal and your son just accepts it, Later dear sweet Joe,(who was just dong his job) gets arrested for child molestation. Does that mean you son wasn't sexually abused? I don't think so. And trust me the gov't will screw up and hire one of these jerks.

 

[mhsjax]

You added that second paragraph while I was posting. So, you are not concerned about DRs "groping" your child at security? They are totally safe? I am honestly curious where you draw the line in deciding who is safe in such a job and who is not

Actually, now that I think about it, no probably not, but I would certainly rather a Dr if I had no choice what so ever.

 

[sbell111]

... This makes me wonder, can a citizen file a criminal assault charge against a TSA agent? I think I'd feel better about this knowing that a bad agent could end up in jail but the way it looks to me now, it seems that these TSA agents are wholly unaccountable.

No. When you submit to a patdown, you are not being assaulted.