TSA mess and the police

[CathrynRose]

My DFi flew to Florida this past weekend. I asked him how security was, and he got pretty quiet. Our airport has the scanners now, but he wasn't given a choice to go through them or get the pat-down. He said there was one line, and the agents seemed to be randomly putting people in the scanner line and pat-down line. He was directed to the pat-down line. And he said that was no quick pat-down. What made him the most uncomfortable was how the (male) agent went under his shirt and gave "the boys" a lot of attention. Not just a quick brush; he says he got completely felt up. Next time he hopes to get the "naked scanner."

See, this is getting out of hand, IMO.

These are entry level "wanna-be cops" grabbing private parts. I'm actually pretty floored that a lot of people seem to be a-okay with this. I don't care if it's male-male / female-female. So what?

Do I wanna be safe? Of course I do - but please, please tell me what they have found after an inspection of Big Jim and The Twins and/or The Girls. I haven't heard ANYTHING on the news, EVER about it. Have any of us??

And yes, yes - I'm aware I don't have to fly. But I'm also aware - as (I believe someone else posted) Police Officers have to have just cause to invade your body like this, and (again entry level) TSA agents can do this at will! For a service we're paying for!

Has anyone EVER looked around the screening area in an airport and thought "Gee Whiz! I'm sure glad these TSA's are here! I feel a whole lot safer!"

 

[CathrynRose]

I just have to add... If WE feel as uncomfortable having "the boys" and "the girls" felt up with fury, think how uncomfortable the TSA agents feel, just doing their job and make an honest living.

Please don't make them the bad guy just because they are doing their job. In any line of work, of course, there are good and bad attitudes. Same with the TSA.

Just as any line of work - you know what you're getting yourself into, correct? Which makes me question the whole thing, even more.

 

[AKL_Megs]

Just as any line of work - you know what you're getting yourself into, correct? Which makes me question the whole thing, even more.

yes, but what about the majority who have been working for the TSA for years. They want this no more than anyone else.

 

[Jennasis]

Just as any line of work - you know what you're getting yourself into, correct? Which makes me question the whole thing, even more.

Not necessarily. These uber-pat downs weren't in place until pretty recently.

ETA: by that logic, I also question the sanity of gynecologists and proctologists!

 

[ccgirl]

I was just reading another article about the way the TSA is strong arming people into complying with their methods. I'm all for safety but the agents aren't highly trained, some of them look like they are barely a step up from ... well, they don't look like the TSA is particularly discerning.

Anyway, I don't have a single doubt in my mind that plenty of them are abusing their authority over people. The TSA seems blithely unconcerned with oversight and personal assaults but people still keep filing complaints with the TSA, as if it matters. This makes me wonder, can a citizen file a criminal assault charge against a TSA agent? I think I'd feel better about this knowing that a bad agent could end up in jail but the way it looks to me now, it seems that these TSA agents are wholly unaccountable. As if the airports are under Marshall Law via contractors and i don't like it at all. If the TSA won't restrain them and the State Police have no authority, who does?

I'm supposed to fly to Aruba next year and have been checking out the airfares but I haven't bought tickets because I AM NOT putting my DS12 and DD11 blindly into the hands of some out of control wackjob knowing I couldn't defend my kid without being arrested. I'm waiting to see what happens. Between the TSA bullies and the radioactive scanners/x-rays and the bedbugs, camping is looking pretty good to me ... I'd rather take my chances in the woods

I like flying & I like Aruba but I am not wading willingly into this mess, not with kids. I wonder if anyone is paying attention to the fact they are costing the airlines business?

As far as the radioactivity; you actually get more from sitting in the plane than the scanner.

that made me giggle!!




We have flown to MCO from Boston and from Providence,
and I have to say the agents in Boston were always helpful, polite, kind to the kids, never an issue.
also in Providence same thing, I can't recall them being quite as good as Boston, but no issues.
In boston they always helped getting all our gear off the belt so we can move along and get the kids back into their shoes etc.........

in Orlando, its a whole different ball game if you ask me. no one has ever been rude, but certainly not as polite and helpful as others we experienced in Boston or Providence.

I have found the same exact thing. This past weekend we flew from BOS to Fort Myers. I have to say that Fort Myers had the best, and most cordial TSA agents I have encountered while MCO has had the worst. Of course, MCO has been beyond busy each and every time we have been there so that might have something to do with it.

The new uproar isn't about searching luggage, that's a totally different problem. (I had 2 pieces of brand new luggage destroyed between Newark and MCO when they ripped off TSA approved locks we'd been using for YEARS) I'm ok with the luggage, what I'm NOT ok with is way this is being handled when it comes to our bodies.

You do realize that the police are required to have a REASON to do a body search but when it comes to flying the only REASON necessary is that we show up. Think about that, we are ALL treated as suspects simply because we show up AND, what's worse, we are at the mercy of a bunch of people who are neither police nor military personnel... who probably have only the dimmest understanding about OUR RIGHTS AND LAWS and who, apparently don't have to trouble themselves with following any of them.

All this is for what anyway? I never see or hear anything on the news that seems to justify any of this. Where are the arrests? The guns found? The explosives found? The ACTUAL REAL LIFE threats this prevents? I don't see anything, just a bunch of bullies accountable to NO-ONE given the reigns to my life once I step into that building and I'm just not going to do it willingly.

Now they've gone a step further and I'm asked to expose myself and my family to radiation for a luxury trip. Radiation which we have spent an entire decade being told will kill us if we go for a walk without sunscreen, radiation that causes all sorts of cancers from skin to thyroid & on & on so now, what, it's safe? How did that tricky little u-turn happen? Never mind myself and my kids, what about my DH who flies for business? Who is keeping track of his exposure levels? Will he get one of those little readers that x-ray techs get to use to record his exposure or is he just expendable? No, they just crossed a line for me and it's time for put up or shut up. I better start hearing how good this is for me and how or I'm just done with the whole thing. I'm so very done, I don't NEED to fly and I won't. But my DH does and I'm ticked he has to choose between being groped and radiation.

BTW, my DD11 gets a lead wrap covering her ovaries when she gets an x-ray. Come to think of it I do too.

As far as the locks, there are notices everywhere that locks will be removed if bags need to be searched. They are searched randomly as well as when something shows up. Again, there is more radiation in the plane itself than the x-ray machine. Do you use microwaves? Those omit radiation as well. If you don't want the pat down go through the full body scanner.

The idea that there is no middle ground between radiation/groping and nothing is not reasonable. There is middle ground, there is always middle ground and forcing law abiding Americans to do this is no-where near middle ground

What is the middle ground though? I think people are really getting upset over the radiation piece. If you don't want to get exposed to radiation do not fly at all as you are exposed to radiation in the plane itself.

I guess there are two sides to every story and opinion.

I did a lot of research on the actual amounts of radiation before making the decision to my family. I did not want to give in to the public hysteria. I have linked a quote that some of you may find interesting.
___________________________
What is missing from this discussion is the fact that the increased cosmic radiation dose rates at airliner altitudes gives every passenger a whole-body dose of radiation equal to that from the x-ray scanners EVERY MINUTE that they are at cruising altitude. So the dose from the scanner is totally inconsequential.

Robert J. Barish, PhD
Author: The Invisible Passenger: Radiation Risks for People Who Fly
___________________________________
So, if you are not agreeing with the backscatters due to the radiation levels, that is unfounded. If you are not agreeing due to privacy; that is another issue.

Good luck to everyone in making the best, and most educated, choice for their family.

 

[C.Ann]

I was just reading an article about the TSA:

Flight attendants union upset over new pat-down procedures

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/lifestyle/travel/flight-attendants-union-upset-over-new-pat-down-procedures

I thought it was interesting. There are some that allege there is more going on than a pat down. I'm sure it "can" happen. It'll be interesting to see if more comes of this.

That article is definitely worth a read.. If I understood it correctly, it was a flight attendant herself that filed a complaint after she had the more invasive pat down? Or am I reading that wrong?

I just have to add... If WE feel as uncomfortable having "the boys" and "the girls" felt up with fury, think how uncomfortable the TSA agents feel, just doing their job and make an honest living.

Please don't make them the bad guy just because they are doing their job. In any line of work, of course, there are good and bad attitudes. Same with the TSA.

You make a valid point - and unless someone who is performing the pat down is going much further than they should, there's no point in taking it out on the person who is assigned to this job..

However, I think most people would prefer to be groped by their significant other - rather than a total stranger.. KWIM?

 

[Heidict]

As far as the locks, there are notices everywhere that locks will be removed if bags need to be searched. They are searched randomly as well as when something shows up.

And the TSA has the key to open the TSA approved locks. So, why did they destroy 2 pieces of luggage that were locked with TSA approved locks?

She is not objecting to them doing a search, she is objecting her luggage being destroyed.

 

[Becky2005]

The TSA makes me think we live in a police state. I remember growing up in the 60s and hearing about how the Russian police could search people's bags, purses, person, etc and being so happy we lived in the US. Yes, I know the whole 9/11 thing. If a sophisticated terrorist group wants to blow a plane out of the sky, this type of thing will not stop them.

That's pretty much it. No bag/human search in the world is going to stop someone who is intent on completing their mission.

It will stop the niave or just out for kicks crazies but a sophisticated one, highly doubt it & considering we pretty much advertise what 90% of our security checks/information via a "secrets of XYZ" show or a news report are and how things are done, it wouldn't be too difficult or it gets hacked on the internet or whatever.

I don't fly because I would be one of those that would get stopped I'm sure because I would accidently pack/do something I'm not supposed to because they keep changing what that is. It gets me all kinds of confused. Plus if I went with my DD we would really be complicated since she has metal rods in her back (although they aren't supposed to set off the alarms, I wouldn't trust that they wouldn't).

 

[TheZue]

Seems to me if you are willing to blow yourself up you'd be willing to swallow some explosives and retrieve them later. We avoid flying as much as possible anyways, but this seals it for us. There is no way I am letting my boys get groped and I'd rather not have their naked pictures stored on some computer somewhere either.

 

[ccgirl]

And the TSA has the key to open the TSA approved locks. So, why did they destroy 2 pieces of luggage that were locked with TSA approved locks?

She is not objecting to them doing a search, she is objecting her luggage being destroyed.

Sorry, missed the part about them being TSA approved locks. My guess would be that they didn't have the key?

 

[rie'smom]

I just have to add... If WE feel as uncomfortable having "the boys" and "the girls" felt up with fury, think how uncomfortable the TSA agents feel, just doing their job and make an honest living.

Please don't make them the bad guy just because they are doing their job. In any line of work, of course, there are good and bad attitudes. Same with the TSA.

I don't blame the agents, I blame the policy.

 

[beaucoup]

If I was that worried about it, I would find another way to travel to my destinations. Car, bus, train, boat, bicycle, hot air balloon, walk. Airplanes are not the only method.

 

[eliza61]

Before we go and start painting all TSA agents as "child molesting, waiting to feel up my kids" wack jobs. I pretty much fly 3 times a month. I had a pat down last Thursday that was so quick and unintrusive that I stood there waiting for some thing else.

Op, I would skip the trip if I was you. Sorry Orlando but your post already screams that you believe all TSA agents are waiting to get their clutches on you and your kids, so before you even get to the airrport you're primed for a fight.

I do respect your view but unfortunately I don't think there is any thing that the TSA agent at the airport could do that you would be happy with, so I just see a confrontation waiting to happen. from some thing as simple as asking your son to raise his arms.

Like I said, I was patted down last Thursday in Philly and last Friday coming home from Chicago. The female TSA agent did not grope me, squeeze my breast, feel me up or any other thing. I've had dogs sniff me closer than the TSA agents.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Before we go and start painting all TSA agents as "child molesting, waiting to feel up my kids" wack jobs. I pretty much fly 3 times a month. I had a pat down last Thursday that was so quick and unintrusive that I stood there waiting for some thing else.

Op, I would skip the trip if I was you. Your post already screams that you believe all TSA agents are waiting to get their clutches on you and your kids, so before you even get to the airrport you're primed for a fight.

There is no way the airport or the TSA agent is going to make you happy so please for the sake of the passengers behind you. Don't fly.

Like I said, I was patted down last Thursday in Philly and last Friday coming home from Chicago. The female TSA agent did not grope me, squeeze my breast, feel me up or any other thing. I've had dogs sniff me closer than the TSA agents.

Really now? THAT is what you got out of my posts? None of the other stuff? You managed to gloss right over the thoughts behind my posts and dump me into an easily marginalized pool of paranoid parents who should just quiet down? All I can say is no, you are wrong all the way around pretty much about everything you interpreted and pretty much about everything you posted so can you turn that little suggestion for a favor back onto yourself?

FYI, I am very close to a TSA agent. This person happens to be a family member BTW, it's a good job for retired folks. As much as I like this person and as much as I KNOW he is of pure mind and soul I STILL am not ok with him groping my kid.

 

[eliza61]

Really now? THAT is what you got out of my posts? None of the other stuff? You managed to gloss right over the thoughts behind my posts and dump me into an easily marginalized pool of paranoid parents who should just quiet down? All I can say is no, you are wrong all the way around pretty much about everything you interpreted and pretty much about everything you posted so can you turn that little suggestion for a favor back onto yourself?

FYI, I am very close to a TSA agent. This person happens to be a family member BTW, it's a good job for retired folks. As much as I like this person and as much as I KNOW he is of pure mind and soul I STILL am not ok with him groping my kid.

I did, your first post just sounded so confrontational. Maybe it was the "putting your kids in the arms of some wack job" or that you were reading an article where "TSA agents were bullying people" into doing what they want.

The first thing I thought was Oh, oh Orlando is already ticked about the TSA and nothing good is going to come out of it. I'll go back and reread to see what I missed.

 

[Topper]

that she has to either submit to egg damaging x-rays OR be physically molested by an adult?

She'll receive a higher dose of radiation just flying on the plane than she will using the WBI machines.

 

[eliza61]

I was just reading another article about the way the TSA is strong arming people into complying with their methods. I'm all for safety but the agents aren't highly trained, some of them look like they are barely a step up from ... well, they don't look like the TSA is particularly discerning.

Anyway, I don't have a single doubt in my mind that plenty of them are abusing their authority over people. The TSA seems blithely unconcerned with oversight and personal assaults but people still keep filing complaints with the TSA, as if it matters. This makes me wonder, can a citizen file a criminal assault charge against a TSA agent? I think I'd feel better about this knowing that a bad agent could end up in jail but the way it looks to me now, it seems that these TSA agents are wholly unaccountable. As if the airports are under Marshall Law via contractors and i don't like it at all. If the TSA won't restrain them and the State Police have no authority, who does?



I'm supposed to fly to Aruba next year and have been checking out the airfares but I haven't bought tickets because I AM NOT putting my DS12 and DD11 blindly into the hands of some out of control wackjob knowing I couldn't defend my kid without being arrested. I'm waiting to see what happens. Between the TSA bullies and the radioactive scanners/x-rays and the bedbugs, camping is looking pretty good to me ... I'd rather take my chances in the woods

I like flying & I like Aruba but I am not wading willingly into this mess, not with kids. I wonder if anyone is paying attention to the fact they are costing the airlines business?

Ok Orlando what facts am I supposedly missing. every line of this screams the TSA are the gestapo? You have said it looks like the bad agents are getting away with illegal activities, that the airline are under some type of marshall law.

You liken the pat down to Physical assualt by an adult. That is what you described it as, so exactly what did I misinterpret? So I stand by the original assessment. If this is how you feel. Don't fly. nothing the TSA agent does to you or your family will be viewed as professional or unintrusive.

So the only question was can citizens file a report. The answer to that is Yes they can. Here is a link that you can follow.

http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/gc_1169676919316.shtm

 

[punkin]

She'll receive a higher dose of radiation just flying on the plane than she will using the WBI machines.

Then why is the airline pilots union telling the pilots to avoid the new scanners due to radiation exposure?

 

[Topper]

Then why is the airline pilots union telling the pilots to avoid the new scanners due to radiation exposure?

My "guess" would be that the union is incorrectly informed as to the facts. If you need a definitive answer, you could try contacting the union.

 

[Magpie]

Really now? THAT is what you got out of my posts? None of the other stuff? You managed to gloss right over the thoughts behind my posts and dump me into an easily marginalized pool of paranoid parents who should just quiet down? All I can say is no, you are wrong all the way around pretty much about everything you interpreted and pretty much about everything you posted so can you turn that little suggestion for a favor back onto yourself?

FYI, I am very close to a TSA agent. This person happens to be a family member BTW, it's a good job for retired folks. As much as I like this person and as much as I KNOW he is of pure mind and soul I STILL am not ok with him groping my kid.

You do kind of sound like you're shouting...

FWIW, I was amused but not offended by what I saw on the news about the new screening procedures. There's a world of difference between a woman running her palms under your breasts and up the inside of your legs, and actually being "molested". I think it's important not to equate the two. When you call this "groping" and suggest that it's the same as sexual molestation, you're implying some very ugly things about TSA agents as a whole. That's not fair. Think about it - you're actually saying your relative is now a child molester and should be arrested because he or she has had to pat down children in the course of his or her job.

My kids and I are highly unlikely to be be traumatized by being touched in a professional capacity by a stranger. We also think it'd be hilarious to see what we look like in a "naked" scanner (except sadly passengers never get to see anyone's scans)!

However, I also know that what's not a big deal for us can be a very big deal for other people, depending on their personal boundaries and culture.

I imagine devout Muslim women are having a particularly difficult time flying these days.

My personal stance on it comes down to the fact that airlines are private companies. They can set their own rules. I can choose whether or not to use them, based on whether I can abide by their rules or not. If I don't like it, then I won't fly. I'll drive, book passage on a ship, take a bus or a train, or charter a private plane instead.