TSA mess and the police

[eliza61]

I wouldn't be too sure about this. I don't think you give the pull the leisure traveler has with the airlines enough credit. The entire fee based pricing system we have now is, in large part, because of the leisure traveler. They wanted lower and lower prices, and the airlines continued to lower the prices. Finally, the airlines had to find some way to make up that deficit. If they didn't care about the leisure traveler, they wouldn't have even started down that slope.

.

Unfortunately I think this is why the general public will tolerate these new procedures. from what I see (and this is from my very small, view ) every one of the leisure travellers I know and a few of the business ones is concerned with one thing and one thing only.

PRICE!!!. The leisure travelers I've talked to at PHL simply don't fly enough for this to be more than a momentary outrage. I've yet to have anyone except here on the dis tell me they were going to stop flying due to this. Every one I know who planned on going to the world next summer is simply waiting for Southwest to open up their booking window.

I just booked my flight to Paris for next May and as soon as southwest opens up its dates for september, I'll be booking my flight to Orlando.

Now when I ask if they like the new procedures, absolutely I get a resounding no, if I then ask are they going to find alternative means to go on vacation, I also get a resounding No.

I've asked coworkers with small kids and 2 coworkers who are disabled, 1 in a wheelchair. My wheel chair bound coworker especially isn't looking forward to the pat down but her grandkids are in Texas. She'll tolerate the discomfit instead of the 2 day drive to Texas.

I think the airlines know this, I think they know as long as they offer NJ-Florida for 79 bucks, people will come.

Maybe the people I know are really cheap, LOL but it takes alot for them to give up their vacations.

 

[eliza61]

I think also the 2nd problem with getting this resolves is that the outrage is slowly fading from the public. Like I said before (although some disagreed with me), here in the tristate Philly area, you don't here a peep about the naked scanners or TSA gropings. When I say "hear", I mean it hasn't been in the main media since the opt out day during Thanksgiving.

Next summer, unless some thing catastrophic happens I don't think it will cross many peoples minds.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Post 2261: I won't disagree with you Eliza61,there are definitely people who don't care or mind but how much of the market they make up still remains to be seen. The upper middle class demographic will behave differently than the working poor and both will behave differently than the rich who are loaded but not private jet loaded. For example, I am in a group who won't go with the lowest fare, I have a favored airline (Continental) and a favored airport (Abe) and I'll pay more to fly how I want when I want with the company I want. point is, The factors that effect the Southwest bunch demographic might not touch me and the ones that bug me might not concern them.

The airlines might have their hands tied but we all know they pay certain
entities handsomely to make their interests heard. Whether the travel industries sic their 'peeps' on this issue or not depends on the fallout. In the next quarters $ looks anemic there will be repercussions, if not there will be no change.

It's all about the Benjamins

 

[LuvOrlando]

I think also the 2nd problem with getting this resolves is that the outrage is slowly fading from the public. Like I said before (although some disagreed with me), here in the tristate Philly area, you don't here a peep about the naked scanners or TSA gropings. When I say "hear", I mean it hasn't been in the main media since the opt out day during Thanksgiving.

Next summer, unless some thing catastrophic happens I don't think it will cross many peoples minds.

Again silence alone tells us nothing. Consider the vaccine issue. Parents who opt out aren't carrying on about it, they simply don't do it. There are no headlines even though the issue is significant. You can't count heads in Dr offices to see who is abstaining, you need to look at the number of kids who are part of the pool, look and the number who are getting vaccinated then look at the difference. observation alone isn't always useful

 

[eliza61]

Again silence alone tells us nothing. Consider the vaccine issue. Parents who opt out aren't carrying on about it, they simply don't do it. There are no headlines even though the issue is significant. You can't count heads in Dr offices to see who is abstaining, you need to look at the number of kids who are part of the pool, look and the number who are getting vaccinated then look at the difference. observation alone isn't always useful

I don't know Luv, I think that's why so many people try to keep their "causes" in the public eye. Whether it's the link with autism and vaccinations or Dont ask, dont tell. People try very hard to keep their "causes" in the public eye, especially if funding is concern.

What I think may happen is the more and more these issues (and I do think the TSA agents need help) move further back in our memory, the more people say "well, can't be that bad" or "it's what we have to do to fly"

 

[kaytieeldr]

You can't say that, no-one can say anything definitive yet. There is no way to know what the masses are doing just yet.

The masses, no. I can't and won't monitor every flight in and out of Boston. I only care about my own upcoming flights.

JetBlue opened this booking window back in late April or early May. I bought my outbound ticket at the beginning of October, and my return ticket closer to the end of the month but before the 29th. Since this thread started, I've been monitoring MY flights (only).

Each plane has, effectively, 140 available seats. Since November 10, the outbound flight has gone from having 75 passengers to having 109 passengers. The two latest passengers booked between 8:00 last night and 5 PM today, just days before departure.

With the complete understand that this isn't "proof" of anything, it sure looks like people aren't refusing to fly. A 45% increase in ticket sales in four weeks? Incidentally, because there's snow predicted for Wednesday, I (stupidly) checked the earlier flight. It's pretty full too. Why stupidly? Well, that's a connecting flight... through JFK. Eliza61 can probably tell you all, the three airports to avoid in the Northeast in the winter: JFK, EWR, and PHL

My return flight is still a little more spacious - but still a ways off, too. In that same month it's gone from 56 passengers to 77 passengers, so a tad over half-full. So far . Still, a 37% increase in sales for this one flight... and it's Christmas night (what can I say? I looked at the fare instead of the calendar!)

Again, one flight isn't definitive, but it's an interesting sampling. Oh, the night before? Traditionally light passenger load. Only Santa flies on Christmas Eve!!!!

 

[hambirg]

Well. . .I took my DD15 and DD8 to the airport today. . Seatac. The security line was huge I thought, especially for a Sunday afternoon. It took them about 45 minutes to get through. I wanted to stay until I saw them through and off on their way to their gate. At one point there was a couple in line conversing about whether they were going to make their flight. The woman finally asked a TSA agent if there was any faster way (there are also 2 other security check points at dif locations) and he told her that they could opt to go through the body scanner at the far end (there was only 1). They discussed it and then headed down there. There was no line. The whole time I stood there I only saw that couple and a handful of airline employees (pilots and attendants) go through the body scan line. Everyone else chose to stay in the looong traditional line. I also never saw anyone get patted down. . . just the normal asking a few people to open their carry ons.

I guess what struck me is what a huge waste of money! If everyone is going to go through the traditional lines anyway, why spend all that money on these scanners that nobody chooses to use? And honestly, I think the pat downs have been scaled back because of the back lash that happened around Thanksgiving. I know they said they would no longer pat down travelers under 12. It was a concern of mine because I know DD8 would have been very upset if they separated her from her sister for a pat down. I was glad they made that change. All in all, it was business as usual. So again, why did we spend all that money???

ETA-I just think it is a big farce. Scare the people into thinking this is necessary for their security. That this is all necessary, but yet really not change anything. . .so that somebody can separate the tax payers from our money. Too me it's the equivalent of that undercarriage protection they try to sell you when you buy a new car. It doesn't really protect anything and it's just a sales tactic to separate you from your money.

 

[minniebride]

I've only had 2 issues with TSA in the past 7-8 years.

One was back in 2003-I was flying out from Boston to South Carolina. Got there early and went back and forth through security a few times to go to Dunkin Donuts, have a cigarette, etc...Anyways, I had a swiss army knife attached to my keychain and I had forgotten it was even on there. It took until the FIFTH time going through security for them to notice that it was even on there! Like I said, I had completely forgotten it was on there, but I was so surprised that it had taken security so many times to notice it and remove it from my keychain! Made me a little nervous about their security measures that it took them that long to notice a knife on my keychain!

The only other uneasy experience I've had with TSA is 2 years ago I was traveling and had a cake serving knife in my suitcase. TSA went through my suitcase and left a note saying that it was considered a weapon and they had confiscated it.....a cake server in a suitcase, REALLY??? The suitcase was not a carry-on, it was stored under the plane-were they thinking I was going to sneak down to the bottom of the plane and cause some damage with a cake server??? I was kind of annoyed that they took it

 

[LuvOrlando]

I don't think what is going on today, the experiences that people are reporting rightnow were the original game-plan. I don't think they spent all that money intending for those machines to remain idle. Back when this was rolled out the TSA was all up in our faces and strong arming everyone into either the scanners or the penalty pat-downs. Lots of people got upset, it was a PR nightmare and it appears as though they backed down in response. Now if people continue to report a kinder gentler TSA I would reconsider flying and I bet I'm not the only one who would. My objections were to the invasive procedures as a default, if they are not the default I don't have a problem. To be honest, I am hoping the mess has blown over because my SIL just got engaged and is looking to get hitched in Miami beach next year... I sooooooooo don't want to show up at The Ritz in a RV. I will if I have to but I'd much rather not meet the new family as The Griswolds

 

[JLTraveling]

I don't think what is going on today, the experiences that people are reporting rightnow were the original game-plan. I don't think they spent all that money intending for those machines to remain idle. Back when this was rolled out the TSA was all up in our faces and strong arming everyone into either the scanners or the penalty pat-downs. Lots of people got upset, it was a PR nightmare and it appears as though they backed down in response. Now if people continue to report a kinder gentler TSA I would reconsider flying and I bet I'm not the only one who would. My objections were to the invasive procedures as a default, if they are not the default I don't have a problem. To be honest, I am hoping the mess has blown over because my SIL just got engaged and is looking to get hitched in Miami beach next year... I sooooooooo don't want to show up at The Ritz in a RV. I will if I have to but I'd much rather not meet the new family as The Griswolds

Hey now! I travel full-time in an RV, and we are definitely NOT the Griswolds! I know you'd rather fly if this mess gets resolved, and I don't blame you for that...but arriving in an RV really isn't the end of the world.

 

[hambirg]

I don't think what is going on today, the experiences that people are reporting rightnow were the original game-plan. I don't think they spent all that money intending for those machines to remain idle. Back when this was rolled out the TSA was all up in our faces and strong arming everyone into either the scanners or the penalty pat-downs. Lots of people got upset, it was a PR nightmare and it appears as though they backed down in response. Now if people continue to report a kinder gentler TSA I would reconsider flying and I bet I'm not the only one who would. My objections were to the invasive procedures as a default, if they are not the default I don't have a problem. To be honest, I am hoping the mess has blown over because my SIL just got engaged and is looking to get hitched in Miami beach next year... I sooooooooo don't want to show up at The Ritz in a RV. I will if I have to but I'd much rather not meet the new family as The Griswolds

I think you very well might be right. I do know what I saw today was a very gentler, kinder, smiling and conversing TSA. I think it was probably a PR nightmare. . .and I think that's a good thing. I've known my girls were going to make this trip since last summer. . .and I had some very real, valid concerns. BUT. . it really was business as usual. . .and probably actually lighter handed than what I have witnessed in the past. Heck. . .I got abruptly pulled out of the line in Vegas once to be wanded. . .and they were soooo rude. . .treating me like I was some kind of drug mule or something. It turns out that my hair clip set the metal detector off. . .but they were all grim faced and wouldn't answer any of my questions. It was pretty humiliating being treated like a criminal. . .but in the end it was an inconvenience that I was able to shrug off.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Hey now! I travel full-time in an RV, and we are definitely NOT the Griswolds! I know you'd rather fly if this mess gets resolved, and I don't blame you for that...but arriving in an RV really isn't the end of the world.

No offense intended.

 

[bicker]

I don't think you give the pull the leisure traveler has with the airlines enough credit.

I think most leisure travelers would like that to be the case. Regardless, its immaterial. There isn't any evidence that even leisure travelers care enough about this so as to significantly impact the industry's profits. The claims you're reading to that effect are just more of the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that critics of the policy are trying to make into reality by repetition of their assertions that it is reality. The only question left, for me, is whether a significant number of people will fall for that kind of manipulative, deceptive rhetorical tactic, or will it end up just being noise.

The entire fee based pricing system we have now is, in large part, because of the leisure traveler. They wanted lower and lower prices, and the airlines continued to lower the prices.

I don't think you give the business traveler's desire for lower and lower prices enough credit.

Truth is the airlines can't do anything about this.

I think there are a good number of people on both sides of this issue who disagree with you about that. If the airlines are significantly adversely impacted by the policy, the agency will change it, even if it means having to use a lot more taxpayer money to satisfy the same objectives and obligations, some other way. That is one reason why fiscal conservatives should be amassing against the critics - the critics are essentially pushing the government to spend more of our money to accomplish the same aims to serve nothing more than the personal preferences of a few.

 

[CPT Tripss]

I don't know Luv, I think that's why so many people try to keep their "causes" in the public eye. Whether it's the link with autism and vaccinations or Dont ask, dont tell. People try very hard to keep their "causes" in the public eye, especially if funding is concern.

What I think may happen is the more and more these issues (and I do think the TSA agents need help) move further back in our memory, the more people say "well, can't be that bad" or "it's what we have to do to fly"

Sadly, you are right about most people being accepting of these practices. Part of the reason why I have a problem just letting comments liek the quotes go by unchallenged.

BTW - what kind of "help" do TSAers need?

 

[ccgirl]

Just came back from a trip to WDW. Flew from BOS to MCO. AirTran out of BOS was awesome! They were kind and were kidding with my children. I let them know I had my son's nebulizer and they just had me put it in the xray. There was nobody else in line so this might have been the reason. Anyway, they did not have any of us go thru the full body scanner this time nor were the signs up informing people of the use of the scanner. We went threw the good ol' WTMD. Coming home from MCO was a NIGHTMARE! They really need to change this. The TSA there were their usual rude and slow selves. We ended up taking 45 mins and having to run to our gate. We did not go thru the full body scanner there but there was 1 sign up informing everyone of the possibility of the random selection of it. I did not see anyone get selected. All of my flights were sold out. Both airports were extremely crowded so it appeared plenty of people were still flying.

 

[skater]

Thank you for your concise report!

 

[skater]

One more thing bicker - my frustration wasn't because you don't agree with me . That's silly. I'm not frustrated with all the other posters who don't agree with me. I'm actually enjoying their opinons - because they're respectful.

 

[bicker]

My messages are no less respectful than the messages I reply to. I suspect that the issue is that the more strongly a perspective you don't like is presented, the more you choose to perceive it as disrespectful, but I grant that you'll choose to see it differently. That's your prerogative. And it is useless to discuss the discussion. It serves only to derail and distract, which just leads me back to question why the desire to do that instead of just addressing the issues.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Glad to hear it CCgirl. It seems like the scanners and pat-downs have been pushed into position as a secondary search, which makes them waaaayyy more tolerable for me. I'm going to keep listening for which airports people are reporting on but so far it's all good news to my ears. Right now I'm in a standby mode, I haven't put down the deposits on the local trips yet because I hope the moratorium on the scanners & pat-downs are permanent... but i don't quite trust them yet so I won't buy plane tickets either. I feel like a nervous deer at a salt lick, could be great/ could be a trick. I am curious over what the Christmas travel rush will bring

 

[bicker]

The scanners and pat-downs have been secondary measures since the start of this controversy, though I have to grant that critics have tried very hard to make it sound otherwise.