TSA Delays Hoards After They Foul Up

[Friendly Frog]

I hate coming into a thread like this late, especially when it is headed to being locked.

People make mistakes. TSA agents are under a lot of pressure. The must safely, quickly, and thoroughly inspect everyone while not "upsetting" or "over searching" anyone...and it can be a life or death matter.

The bad guys are testing airport security every day. You can bet that as soon as they find an area of minimum search, they will exploit it. ( Yes, better safe than, umm dead.)

The screening job is repetitive. I would imagine that it would really hard to stay in full concentration every moment of every day....day in and day out..... watching bag, bag, bag, bag, bag, bag. I am grateful that the employee put airport security first by alerting to the bag, rather than cover her tush and say nothing.


In the final analysis, I see it as a mistake was make. TSA owned up to it. They went into action and did everything they could (thank goodness) to insure our safety. The next step is to review what happened and learn from it. See if policy or procedure changes can help to prevent this from occurring again. As much went right as went wrong.

As for the guys seemingly doing nothing. Maybe their job is to watch for suspicious behaviour? That is a large part of any security team. Maybe their job is to "hang out", observe, and step as added force when needed?

 

[vacationclub]

I believe I even said your accusations could be accurate. Here's something to think about though... you blast TSA (in general) any time a mistake or something you disagree with happens. Let's take another "group" that's been in the news recently... school teachers accused of sexual molestation. Because of these "bad apples" (and they are EVERYWHERE across the country) in the teacher ranks, should all teachers be "painted with a broad brush"? If not, why is it okay to criticize the TSA (the organization), but not teachers (the group)?

I don't think that's a real comparison. Bad apple teachers are just that...bad individuals that got caught.

But the TSA can get a broad brush treatment because as a broad agency they have policies that can be criticized or questioned, regardless of the bad apples that may steal your stuff. Teachers, who are not a government agency with broad legal powers to search and detain you for no reason whatsoever, don't have any stated mission that includes molesting children. TSA, however, does have a stated mission that involves legal power given to it's employees with over half a decade less education than teachers. Beyond that, the entire existence of teachers doesn't really need to be questioned...I think people know why we have teachers. The TSA, however, I think needs to justify it's aggressive and sometimes ridiculous methods that have yet to stop a single terrorist attack since 9/11.

Right now they are doing a nearly impossible job, dealing with a public who takes out they fustration on them instead of the torrorists......

You make it sound as if bombs are going off every week. The last attempt via a US airport was on 9/11 and was successful. They immediately fixed the major reason it happened....easy access to the cockpit. Beyond that, the flying public will never allow that trick to be played on them again.

There have not been any attempts since then that were detected or stopped by the TSA. I don't think it's unpatriotic to question the methods of catching a horse long after it left the barn and is now dead.

Even now they collect 2 to 4 guns a week from people trying to get on planes..........

Is it really 2 to 4 guns per week? But how many of those guns were about to be used to carry out some crime or attack? Also, they've been known to miss guns as well (DFW)....which seems strange with how much effort they put into nail clippers, shampoo bottles and phone chargers.

Just becuase someone doesn't look like a torrorist, that doesn't mean they aren't a torrorist.........they recuit old folks and kids for siucide bombers......well documented, ![/SIZE]

Actually, it's not well documented except in non-USA, non-airport scenarios. These "well documented" situations you're referring to are deep in the heart of places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, where some women or children who are connected directly somehow with terror groups, walked into markets or crowded places....they were strapped with a bomb. They weren't in an airport or going through security....they just walked into the easiest place they could go inside their nearly lawless country.

This situation has never occurred here. And if they ever wanted to do what you're referring to, they don't even need to go through TSA...just walk into the airport. The most damage can be done before you get to security...while in line. So, I believe it's naive to suggest that TSA must take your nail clipper and dump out your slightly oversize aftershave, or subject you to radiation because they are trying to stop a person from strapping C4 to their chest.

Bottom line, TSA agents have a job to do, no matter how ridiculous their reason or methods. The best you can hope for is a quick in and out while going through methods that are questionable legally, medically, and logically.

 

[sam_gordon]

But the TSA can get a broad brush treatment because as a broad agency they have policies that can be criticized or questioned, regardless of the bad apples that may steal your stuff. Teachers, who are not a government agency with broad legal powers to search and detain you for no reason whatsoever, don't have any stated mission that includes molesting children. TSA, however, does have a stated mission that involves legal power given to it's employees with over half a decade less education than teachers. Beyond that, the entire existence of teachers doesn't really need to be questioned...I think people know why we have teachers. The TSA, however, I think needs to justify it's aggressive and sometimes ridiculous methods that have yet to stop a single terrorist attack since 9/11.

And how many terrorist attacks have originated from a US Airport since 9/11?

You make it sound as if bombs are going off every week. The last attempt via a US airport was on 9/11 and was successful. They immediately fixed the major reason it happened....easy access to the cockpit. Beyond that, the flying public will never allow that trick to be played on them again.
There have not been any attempts since then that were detected or stopped by the TSA. I don't think it's unpatriotic to question the methods of catching a horse long after it left the barn and is now dead.

Woo hoo! Did you hear that everyone? The terrorists have GIVEN UP! We don't need security ANYWHERE, much less the airports! Why isn't the national media covering this? We have nothing to worry about! Let's go back to the days before x-ray machines and when the non-ticketed public could go to the gates. Celebration time! Remember where you heard it folks... right here on the Dis!

 

[vacationclub]

And how many terrorist attacks have originated from a US Airport since 9/11?

My point exactly. I believe it's the same number that have originated on trains, buses, in malls, at concerts, sporting events, and other places with way more people. Yet only at airports do we have TSA and their methods.

Woo hoo! Did you hear that everyone? The terrorists have GIVEN UP! We don't need security ANYWHERE, much less the airports! Why isn't the national media covering this? We have nothing to worry about! Let's go back to the days before x-ray machines and when the non-ticketed public could go to the gates. Celebration time! Remember where you heard it folks... right here on the Dis!

What are you talking about?

 

[sam_gordon]

What are you talking about?

You seem convinced (for whatever reason) that there is no threat. After all, there haven't been any other attacks, and if there are, the cockpits are secured, so there's no danger. Since there's no danger, we don't need to worry about security.

 

[CPT Tripss]

You said they stole, but did not call them "thieves". Well, what do YOU call someone who steals? If you say someone steals the word "thief" is implied. Just like if someone lies and you say they lie, you don't have to call them a liar, people with a modicum of intelligence would know they are then a liar.

Look, there are Airport Security Screeners who have been convicted and/or fired for stealing from passengers. I pointed that fact out in a post more than a year old - not a "broad brush" attack at all - specific to those who stole.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Sure I do, but, I address the proper channels, I don't need to go on a vendetta on a public board.

As to your politeness, are you trained in all the protocols and know all of them, or do you react to the ones you do not agree with? It pays to be polite regardless of the situation. Reacting in any other manner only diminishes you and your "cause". IMHO, as one who works with the public on a daily basis, I have little or no use for someone who would be offensive or act out at someone doing their job when they cannot defend themselves. That, in a word, is a BULLY!!!!

I keep up on the TSA protocols that apply to my specific situation - not so much now as I don't fly as often, but I do get up-to-date before a trip. Hopefully that will be somewhat easier now that "TSA Cares" is operational.

Airline and other airport vendor personnel seem to be almost universally competent and personable. As far as the 1st line Airport Security Screener goes, most know what to do and there is no proplem. Some have been way off base . . . my reaction if they don't follow protocol is to ask for the supervisor and then, if necessary, escalate up the management channel. No acting out by this pax, same can't be said for a minority of the Airport Security Screeners.

Given the power differential, attempting to bully a TSAer would make no sense.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I don't think that's a real comparison. Bad apple teachers are just that...bad individuals that got caught.

But the TSA can get a broad brush treatment because as a broad agency they have policies that can be criticized or questioned, regardless of the bad apples that may steal your stuff. Teachers, who are not a government agency with broad legal powers to search and detain you for no reason whatsoever, don't have any stated mission that includes molesting children. TSA, however, does have a stated mission that involves legal power given to it's employees with over half a decade less education than teachers. Beyond that, the entire existence of teachers doesn't really need to be questioned...I think people know why we have teachers. The TSA, however, I think needs to justify it's aggressive and sometimes ridiculous methods that have yet to stop a single terrorist attack since 9/11.


You make it sound as if bombs are going off every week. The last attempt via a US airport was on 9/11 and was successful. They immediately fixed the major reason it happened....easy access to the cockpit. Beyond that, the flying public will never allow that trick to be played on them again.

There have not been any attempts since then that were detected or stopped by the TSA. I don't think it's unpatriotic to question the methods of catching a horse long after it left the barn and is now dead.

Is it really 2 to 4 guns per week? But how many of those guns were about to be used to carry out some crime or attack? Also, they've been known to miss guns as well (DFW)....which seems strange with how much effort they put into nail clippers, shampoo bottles and phone chargers.

Actually, it's not well documented except in non-USA, non-airport scenarios. These "well documented" situations you're referring to are deep in the heart of places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, where some women or children who are connected directly somehow with terror groups, walked into markets or crowded places....they were strapped with a bomb. They weren't in an airport or going through security....they just walked into the easiest place they could go inside their nearly lawless country.

This situation has never occurred here. And if they ever wanted to do what you're referring to, they don't even need to go through TSA...just walk into the airport. The most damage can be done before you get to security...while in line. So, I believe it's naive to suggest that TSA must take your nail clipper and dump out your slightly oversize aftershave, or subject you to radiation because they are trying to stop a person from strapping C4 to their chest.

Bottom line, TSA agents have a job to do, no matter how ridiculous their reason or methods. The best you can hope for is a quick in and out while going through methods that are questionable legally, medically, and logically.

Are you kidding me?.it today world..you are going to say the people bringing gun on plane most likely were no going to use them?.

And just where do you have information that there have not been terroist trying to get on the planes?..wishful thinking? Do you think TSA and FBI etc are advertizing the plots they have stopped for the public?....there are many reasons to keep this onfo quite IE they don't want the terroist to know how they stopped thier last plot!.Please think alittle.!

So when you saying it doesn't happen here...you dont know that....your wishful think it pretty poor!.Given the chance they will try and bring a plane down........blow a train off the track or bomb a event!......then seciurty in these areas are similair if not the same as TSA.


[SIZE="5"Keep up the good work TSA....more inspections and pat down as needed...improve it when you can......but 90% of us the traveling public understand the reasons for it![/SIZE]......

The other 10% is a few misgiuded or just feel to self important people.and of course comgress who use this it get a headline !


AKK

P/S Please get your info right!

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Look, there are Airport Security Screeners who have been convicted and/or fired for stealing from passengers. I pointed that fact out in a post more than a year old - not a "broad brush" attack at all - specific to those who stole.

Please .temper temper......you know there are lots of other old post where you have called them names and showed your grudge againist secruity.

AKK........

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I keep up on the TSA protocols that apply to my specific situation - not so much now as I don't fly as often, but I do get up-to-date before a trip. Hopefully that will be somewhat easier now that "TSA Cares" is operational.

Airline and other airport vendor personnel seem to be almost universally competent and personable. As far as the 1st line Airport Security Screener goes, most know what to do and there is no proplem. Some have been way off base . . . my reaction if they don't follow protocol is to ask for the supervisor and then, if necessary, escalate up the management channel. No acting out by this pax, same can't be said for a minority of the Airport Security Screeners.

Given the power differential, attempting to bully a TSAer would make no sense.

Now Now..in your 2nd para you finially have a fair statement and I agree!

AKK

 

[vacationclub]

You seem convinced (for whatever reason) that there is no threat. After all, there haven't been any other attacks, and if there are, the cockpits are secured, so there's no danger. Since there's no danger, we don't need to worry about security.

I guess you misinterpreted my comments. I never said anything about no threat, or no danger, or getting rid of security, or that terrorist gave up, or that we don't need security anywhere. Those were all your words not mine.

I simply made the point that the TSA and others believe they are absolutely required to do everything they do (not matter how invasive or illogical) else something bad will happen. But, for ten years now they have really no fruit of their labor. It's a situation that can be easily exploited by simply saying "see, nothing happened, no one has tried anything like that other event we missed before, so we must be working". Problem is, we really don't know if what the TSA is doing really has much if anything to do with that considering all the other places the TSA isn't that also have not had any event.

Security is fine. People put up with silly limits on liquids (that even Saturday Night Live satirically pointed out is useless since two people can meet up and combine resources). People put up with taking off shoes. The TSA wasn't a big issue until late 2010 when they started with their diaper bomb prevention techniques including molestation and radiation, regardless of the fact that no one has ever tried a diaper bomb here, and the guy who did somewhere else most likely wouldn't get anywhere near the airport considering how many red flags he had.

 

[vacationclub]

Are you kidding me?.it today world..you are going to say the people bringing gun on plane most likely were no going to use them?.

Please cite one case where a gun was confiscated in an airport where it was believed to be used to hijack the plane, and not simply being transported.

And just where do you have information that there have not been terroist trying to get on the planes?..wishful thinking? Do you think TSA and FBI etc are advertizing the plots they have stopped for the public?....there are many reasons to keep this onfo quite IE they don't want the terroist to know how they stopped thier last plot!.Please think alittle.!

That sounds like the perfect line for the TSA. "Of course we've saved the country mulitiple times, we just can't tell you about any of them."
The problem with your theory is that government agencies have very often publicized their busts of plots. It stands to reason that if there was an attempt like, say, 9/11 and TSA successfully stopped it, and could prove it, that they would either release this info.....it only helps justify their cause....or, eventually the press would figure it out. Or are you saying that there have been many plots to hijack or blow up planes that the TSA has stopped but are keeping secret?

So when you saying it doesn't happen here...you dont know that...

Please cite one incident where a terrorist strapped explosives to themselves in the US and blew themselves up in a crowded area.

....your wishful think it pretty poor!.Given the chance they will try and bring a plane down........blow a train off the track or bomb a event!......then seciurty in these areas are similair if not the same as TSA.!

Your poor grammar makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are saying here. But I believe you're saying that if there were a chance terrorists would blow up anything they could. Here's the problem; They have the chance. All day, every day. Any bus, any train, any crowded place....anywhere. But only at the airport do we have grannies and girl scouts getting searched and radiated. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[SIZE="5"Keep up the good work TSA....more inspections and pat down as needed...improve it when you can......but 90% of us the traveling public understand the reasons for it![/SIZE]......

The other 10% is a few misgiuded or just feel to self important people.and of course comgress who use this it get a headline !


AKK

P/S Please get your info right!

It seems strange you'd say this when you haven't provided any info to back up your specific allegations or alleged facts. You're the one making specific statements about foiled hijacking plots, percentages who agree with you, security protocols, USA suicide bombers. I'm simply making observations and stating opinions.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Please cite one case where a gun was confiscated in an airport where it was believed to be used to hijack the plane, and not simply being transported.


That sounds like the perfect line for the TSA. "Of course we've saved the country mulitiple times, we just can't tell you about any of them."
The problem with your theory is that government agencies have very often publicized their busts of plots. It stands to reason that if there was an attempt like, say, 9/11 and TSA successfully stopped it, and could prove it, that they would either release this info.....it only helps justify their cause....or, eventually the press would figure it out. Or are you saying that there have been many plots to hijack or blow up planes that the TSA has stopped but are keeping secret?


Please cite one incident where a terrorist strapped explosives to themselves in the US and blew themselves up in a crowded area.


Your poor grammar makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are saying here. But I believe you're saying that if there were a chance terrorists would blow up anything they could. Here's the problem; They have the chance. All day, every day. Any bus, any train, any crowded place....anywhere. But only at the airport do we have grannies and girl scouts getting searched and radiated. That's the point I'm trying to make.


It seems strange you'd say this when you haven't provided any info to back up your specific allegations or alleged facts. You're the one making specific statements about foiled hijacking plots, percentages who agree with you, security protocols, USA suicide bombers. I'm simply making observations and stating opinions.

look, Your poisition is so silly......its not worth the time....on one hand to you say you are for secruity.and on the other hand you say TSA shouldn't continue a system that publicily has kept the terrorists away.


The problem with you and tripps and the few others have no idea of the secruity measures going on, especailly behind the scenes.......ever try to get into a port terminal today?........you need a TWIC card (Transportation workers id card)that takes weks and a full background check, you have to be put on a gate list , with a reason for entering , if requested you have to summit to a full bag insection.

To get on a ship reqiures a total of 2 and somtimes 3 checks.

Lastly you are only allowed to go in certain areas of the terminal.

No they do not scan you if secruity is concerned,they simply deny you entry and call police.

Last time I went to a staduim event our bags were checked and there are xray scanners nearby if needed.

Trains and buses are much smaller targets.........yet those cameras and plain clothes secuirty are around.


At all these venues......if secruity is concerned they just take you aside.......and it happens more then you know.....and call police. The scanners and pat down prevents the need to make more people to be detained.


As for Gannies and kids........why do you think that terroist would not use one as a bomb carrier, if they thought secruity would not check them?


No.....your logic is inverted.........but I'll make you a deal, you send your family on a plane fight where secruity doesn't use a scanner on everyone or if needed a pat down.you take that chance with your family.......not mine!


lastly............I am a bit disylasic..I still managed to get a Master degree in Transportaion Management and the Ship Master License.....but it does effect my spelling and grammer........*bowing*.I appolgise for all my short comings.

AKK

 

[goofy4tink]

Man, this subject never fails to amaze me. So...here's the thing...in this day and age, we are seeing more and more non-ethnic persons joining terrorist groups. We are seeing our own 'citizens' leaving the country and joining these groups. There are even those who just stay here and live, day to day, in our midst. Can you tell by looking at a person if they are a danger?? No, of course you can't.
So, with that in mind, we have airport security. Is it perfect? Heck no. I guess we could go back to the period immediately following 9/11 and have armed military at the airports....that was soooo nice and comforting. But, then we'll hear from all the parents who now have crying kids...kids who are scared by those nasty old soldiers with automatic weapons in their hands. We could bring in bomb sniffing dogs. But, we'll hear from those who are allergic to dogs!!!
There is no perfect solution. Are there bad apples within the TSA? Of course there are. There are bad apple doctors, lawyers, teachers, bus drivers, and football coaches. Every single occupation has bad apples. That's life.
So......you don't want something valuable stolen? Pack accordingly. Don't leave your 'valuables' sitting right on top in the bin. Pack it deep within your carryon bag. Make it harder for someone to just take it.
Will there be mistakes made by TSA people? Of course. They are human...we all make mistakes. Again, that's life.
But to categorize an entire group of workers this way is just wrong. I have had mostly wonderful interaction with the TSA at the airports I've used. People tend to respond to good attitudes with a good attitude.

 

[vacationclub]

Let me preface this by saying I'm simply responding to your statements.

look, Your poisition is so silly......its not worth the time....

But then why did you continue to write sentence after sentence after sentence?

on one hand to you say you are for secruity.and on the other hand you say TSA shouldn't continue a system that publicily has kept the terrorists away.

I've never said TSA shouldn't continue as a system. Why do you keep making things up? As far as keeping terrorists away, the mere illusion of security theater, and the fact there are so many other much easier targets may be just enough for any terrorist to not bother. They've already beaten that system, big time. If they really wanted to make another big hit, I'd guess they'd pick another easy target in a way we haven't thought of....just like on 9/11.

The problem with you and tripps and the few others have no idea of the secruity measures going on, especailly behind the scenes.......ever try to get into a port terminal today?........you need a TWIC card (Transportation workers id card)that takes weks and a full background check, you have to be put on a gate list , with a reason for entering , if requested you have to summit to a full bag insection.

To get on a ship reqiures a total of 2 and somtimes 3 checks.

Lastly you are only allowed to go in certain areas of the terminal.

No they do not scan you if secruity is concerned,they simply deny you entry and call police.

Great. What does any of this have to do with a non-worker going to an airport? Why does any knowledge of "behind the scenes" have anything to do with this discussion?

Trains and buses are much smaller targets.........yet those cameras and plain clothes secuirty are around.

They are? Trains can hold more people than a plane. And they drive though metro areas. Buses can hold as many people as a small plane, and again, drive through metro areas as well. Planes actually don't offer that many people in one place....it's a long way to go for a terrorist to get to a small amount of people. The reason they did it wasn't for the people, it was for the plane itself....thus the cockpit door security now in place. They'd do more damage while waiting in line before security...thus my point of the illogical nature of some of the security measures. As far as plain clothes and security cameras, if that's good enough for all the other places you mention, why is the airport so much more strict? I'm just again pointing out that other hubs of transportation don't have anywhere near the same methods....and they have no more successful breaches than airports do.

At all these venues......if secruity is concerned they just take you aside.......and it happens more then you know.....and call police. The scanners and pat down prevents the need to make more people to be detained.

So you're saying that in the airport if security is concerned they don't need to take you aside? That the mere presence of the scanner allows them to avoid detaining people? The scanners and pat downs aren't mandatory for all passengers, so that kind of defeats your point that they serve simply to avoid detaining more people. They aren't there in case security is "concerned", they are simply in some places, used randomly. That's kind of the whole point here.

As for Gannies and kids........why do you think that terroist would not use one as a bomb carrier, if they thought secruity would not check them?

Because for the terrorist to "use them" the granny or kid must A: have some association with them and B: be complicit in the act. That seriously lowers the chances. You could make the same ridiculous argument about any act that has never happened and would be very improbable. Heck, let's just start checking every pilot....you never know which one might be a super secret double agent waiting to strike. Or, how about a pat down of the marching band before playing at the crowded football game. You never know if a terrorist got to one of the flute players from the suburbs....

No.....your logic is inverted.........

Any how is that? I noticed you didn't write one word of explanation.

but I'll make you a deal, you send your family on a plane fight where secruity doesn't use a scanner on everyone or if needed a pat down.you take that chance with your family.......not mine!

Um, I, and thousand of other travelers have been doing that for years. I just did it last week. Thousands are doing it right now. Not every airport, or even every airport line uses a scanner or requires a patdown. The good old metal detector, the quick and non-invasive method, is still in use all over the place. And those families arrive OK. Are you considering what you're saying before you write it?

lastly............I am a bit disylasic..I still managed to get a Master degree in Transportaion Management and the Ship Master License.....but it does effect my spelling and grammer........*bowing*.I appolgise for all my short comings.

AKK

Congratulations on your achievements....but it has no bearing on the strength or basis of your argument.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Is it really 2 to 4 guns per week? But how many of those guns were about to be used to carry out some crime or attack?

Does it matter? There's a procedure for transporting a weapon on a commercial flight, and any responsible gun owner is or should be aware of it. "Oops, I forgot my gun was in my duffel bag" is disingenuous; not saying anybody has used that exact excuse, but again, it doesn't matter. Passengers shouldn't be trying to transport guns in the cabin, no matter what their ultimate intended use.

You don't need to be a terrorist to shoot a gun inappropriately.

Actually, it's not well documented except in non-USA, non-airport scenarios.

As the brokerage firms advertise: past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. Before the 9/11 attacks, no foreign terrorist had crashed planes into U.S. buildings and killed thousand of people.

 

[vacationclub]

Does it matter? There's a procedure for transporting a weapon on a commercial flight, and any responsible gun owner is or should be aware of it. "Oops, I forgot my gun was in my duffel bag" is disingenuous; not saying anybody has used that exact excuse, but again, it doesn't matter. Passengers shouldn't be trying to transport guns in the cabin, no matter what their ultimate intended use.

You don't need to be a terrorist to shoot a gun inappropriately.

I agree with all of this, except my question actually did matter in the context of the conversation. Tonya's Skipper was using unsubstantiated figures (2-4 guns caught per week) as a way to bolster his argument that we have active terrorist threats weekly that the TSA is stopping. I simply questioned the alleged data by saying that, while they may be catching accidental or stupid attempts at transporting guns, where any of those attempts actually terror plot related? I'm not saying you shouldn't be looking for guns, I'm saying that occasionally catching them doesn't make the argument for pat-downs and radiation of non-suspicious people when a metal detector would be just as productive. Please read the context.

As the brokerage firms advertise: past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. Before the 9/11 attacks, no foreign terrorist had crashed planes into U.S. buildings and killed thousand of people.

Nope, yet we had piles of data saying that they were planning that, with specific suspects that turned out to be the perpetrators...that's another story. I guess the logic here is that our FBI, CIA, Police, Secret Service, etc are so horrible at doing their jobs that instead we just put up a huge net at the airport (and only at the airport) and assume everyone is a terrorist, just in case.

If the "past performance" theory is the basis, you could come up with any scenario that has never happened then use the "you never know" excuse to put in any measure no matter how illogical. Why aren't we searching every bag that enters a mall? Why not x-ray people as they get on a train? It's only at the airport. Heck, it's easy to drive your car (filled with whatever) onto a crowded ferry, but we don't check that. Maybe terrorists don't like water?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Let me preface this by saying I'm simply responding to your statements.
But then why did you continue to write sentence after sentence after sentence?



I've never said TSA shouldn't continue as a system. Why do you keep making things up? As far as keeping terrorists away, the mere illusion of security theater, and the fact there are so many other much easier targets may be just enough for any terrorist to not bother. They've already beaten that system, big time. If they really wanted to make another big hit, I'd guess they'd pick another easy target in a way we haven't thought of....just like on 9/11.



Great. What does any of this have to do with a non-worker going to an airport? Why does any knowledge of "behind the scenes" have anything to do with this discussion?


They are? Trains can hold more people than a plane. And they drive though metro areas. Buses can hold as many people as a small plane, and again, drive through metro areas as well. Planes actually don't offer that many people in one place....it's a long way to go for a terrorist to get to a small amount of people. The reason they did it wasn't for the people, it was for the plane itself....thus the cockpit door security now in place. They'd do more damage while waiting in line before security...thus my point of the illogical nature of some of the security measures. As far as plain clothes and security cameras, if that's good enough for all the other places you mention, why is the airport so much more strict? I'm just again pointing out that other hubs of transportation don't have anywhere near the same methods....and they have no more successful breaches than airports do.



So you're saying that in the airport if security is concerned they don't need to take you aside? That the mere presence of the scanner allows them to avoid detaining people? The scanners and pat downs aren't mandatory for all passengers, so that kind of defeats your point that they serve simply to avoid detaining more people. They aren't there in case security is "concerned", they are simply in some places, used randomly. That's kind of the whole point here.




Because for the terrorist to "use them" the granny or kid must A: have some association with them and B: be complicit in the act. That seriously lowers the chances. You could make the same ridiculous argument about any act that has never happened and would be very improbable. Heck, let's just start checking every pilot....you never know which one might be a super secret double agent waiting to strike. Or, how about a pat down of the marching band before playing at the crowded football game. You never know if a terrorist got to one of the flute players from the suburbs....




Any how is that? I noticed you didn't write one word of explanation.




Um, I, and thousand of other travelers have been doing that for years. I just did it last week. Thousands are doing it right now. Not every airport, or even every airport line uses a scanner or requires a patdown. The good old metal detector, the quick and non-invasive method, is still in use all over the place. And those families arrive OK. Are you considering what you're saying before you write it?


Congratulations on your achievements....but it has no bearing on the strength or basis of your argument.

Well.I give up, your living in your own little world.........you take some parts of facts and melt them will your own wishful facts/fantasy and come up with .........well........really nothing that makes sense.

I especailly love the the fantasy remark about *what behind the scene knowlege has anything to do with this discussion ei..why public awareness of secuirity measures behind the scenes would help a terroist plot.....Do you really beleive anything you said?


I can't change your mind so We will have to agree to disgree......


Lastly I have worked hard, but my reason for bringing it up is to show I know a good bit about how Transportation works in the country and the world and secruity measures...........and it actually scares me that some people are so willing to take chances of getting themvelves and /or loved one blown up just becuase they have a grude againist the TSA and /or feel they are to important to be bothered with secruity measures.


lastly.....I was also explaining my spelling and writing/grammer issue since you made a snarky comment about them and I wanted to let you know why.

AKK

 

[vacationclub]

Well.I give up, your living in your own little world

Translation: I have absolutely no rebuttal for the points put to me so I will accuse you of living in a fantasy world.

you take some parts of facts and melt them will your own wishful facts/fantasy

Like what? Dare to actually discuss any of them?

I especailly love the the fantasy remark about *what behind the scene knowlege has anything to do with this discussion ei..why public awareness of secuirity measures behind the scenes would help a terroist plot.....Do you really beleive anything you said?

You didn't explain it...like everything else you've said then been challenged on. What does all of your sidebar text about what they do for employment in in a port terminal ,etc, have to do with what I've discussed?

I can't change your mind so We will have to agree to disgree......

You haven't attempted to. Put forth some facts, some logic, some reason, and I'll be happy to listen and discuss it with you. Your comments are filled with emotion but not any factual discussions.

Lastly I have worked hard, but my reason for bringing it up is to show I know a good bit about how Transportation works in the country and the world and secruity measures...........and it actually scares me that some people are so willing to take chances of getting themvelves and /or loved one blown up just becuase they have a grude againist the TSA and /or feel they are to important to be bothered with secruity measures.
AKK

See, this is the emotionally driven non-factual rhetoric I'm talking about from you.

As I said earlier, your injection of your job in some transportation industry doesn't in any way automatically give you some pass when in a discussion about something very loosely related. I realize that was why you decided to throw that out there but wasn't biting. Just because you..."know a good bit about how Transportation works in the country and the world and secruity measures" doesn't mean you're automatically right and anyone who dares challenge you is wrong. That's like saying..."hey, I'm a cop, don't argue with me..." Please.

Who's taking a chance getting blown up?
Who's too important for security measures?
Where are you getting this?


Notice how I quote your exact words then respond accordingly? That's because I aim my responses directly at your specific comments. But you aren't doing that....you're just ignoring anything I say and making things up in a long rant.

lastly.....I was also explaining my spelling and writing/grammer issue since you made a snarky comment about them and I wanted to let you know why.

Snarky? I said I couldn't understand what you were trying to say because of the jumbled up words, but took a guess at it. I guess if anyone points out that your spelling and grammar are poor they are automatically snarky. Just like if they don't work in the "transportation industry" they are automatically living in a dream world.

Try again if you wish, but at this point I'm not expecting any serious discussion from you.

 

[kaytieeldr]

If the "past performance" theory is the basis, you could come up with any scenario that has never happened then use the "you never know" excuse to put in any measure no matter how illogical. Why aren't we searching every bag that enters a mall? Why not x-ray people as they get on a train? It's only at the airport. Heck, it's easy to drive your car (filled with whatever) onto a crowded ferry, but we don't check that. Maybe terrorists don't like water?

Heck, I've never seen a purple potato - but that doesn't mean I don't believe they exist.

No bag checks in malls? I don't know. Maybe it's been studied and determined malls are low risk. Maybe they have highly effective security systems that differ from what's done at airlies because despite similar appearances, airports aren't malls. Besides, while almost nothing's impossible, it's unlikely a terrorist/group is going to crash a mall into a tower; and ideally government agencies are working to prevent those groups from crashing planes into malls - a situation that couldn't be averted by shoppers' bag checks.

Trains? Interesting point. While we've been fortunate not to have terrorists attack our trains, Mumbai, Madrid, and London weren't so lucky. While they may just be rumors, I did find - but didn't read - some reports that Al Qaeda may have been planning to, yes, attack U.S. trains 9/11/11. But really, there IS security there. No, it's not airport level; you'll need to take that up with Homeland Security.