Trusting Someone

[MamaBelle4]

That in the beginning he didn’t trust her, and that he had never trusted any female.

And he hasn’t had the easiest time growing up. I do worry that she may feel she could never leave him because everyone always has.

If I had read nothing else in this thread, these two things alone would throw up gigantic red flags.

He is so manipulative and controlling.

 

[luvsJack]

You seem to be always justifying- "she's different than other females in this business." I'm not sure what that even means or why she would need to be different.



I share the concerns of others that your emphasis on her brothers and others protecting her is concerning. Could your DD possibly feel that someone needs to care for her? She doesn't want it to be mom and dad anymore so she transferred it to the first serious bf?

I have a DD21 who happens to have a much older brother. We've never put forward an attitude that he needed to look after her. We've promoted the idea that she's a strong woman who can look after herself.

We never put that forward either. They are 14 and 16 years older than her. Honestly there was never a lot of time for them to look after her.

She is different in that she did not start in the business to look for a wrestler. She had no intention to date one at all and wouldn’t give him the time of day at first. She wanted to train and get in the ring. Some females get in to meet wrestlers. Some think it’s a way to be “tough” and “ scary” which isn’t true at all and not what dd expected. Some like the attention of the men and that’s why they are there, she wants to be treated the same not special and not sexualized.

No she doesn’t feel anyone needs to look after her. And her brother has to admit that she does a pretty good job herself. But he has been doing this for 16 years. He knows how easy it is to be taken advantage of. Especially women because everyone wants to book them. At first he was determined to keep any of the guys from hitting on her but saw quickly she can take care of that herself. But he is around them in situations I am not, he watches and listens for the way the bf my treat her or talk to her.

Most of these guys seem to have a protective nature. It’s just the way they are.

 

[luvsJack]

If I had read nothing else in this thread, these two things alone would throw up gigantic red flags.

He is so manipulative and controlling.

I agree. These are the things I worry about.

 

[luvsJack]

I'm confused. Is she involved in a business (makes money) with her brother or is it a hobby (fun and they hope some day to make money)?

If it's not a true business, then I share other's concerns that she is totally dependent on the fiancé. At some point that dependence can feel like she's trapped.

Lol yeah it confuses me too. It is breaking even. It has potential to make money but doesn’t at the moment. They also work for others and do make money. Not a lot.

She has her own money still from work and her last refund check. Plus she does know she can come home anytime.

When we talked last weekend that was something we covered. She is never trapped. She can always come home no questions asked. And she knows that she has other options always.

 

[Shanti]

Can you learn to trust someone? Does everyone in your life have to earn your trust? If you do trust them, how many questionable things have to happen to make you not trust them?

So you meet A. You like A, they seem to be a trust worthy person and seem to mean what they say and mean what they do. A becomes a big part of your life and family.

But you start noticing things that don’t add up. Little things, like how everything is someone else’s fault. At first the someone else is pretty conniving and back stabbing so, you believe A. Then it becomes stuff that the other person could not possibly do, they just don’t have that kind of power.

Then you start hearing things that again don’t add up. So finally you confront A. A starts out saying it’s all not true and someone is just starting rumors. You believe them and then 10 minutes into the conversation, A leaves the room, says a panic attack is coming. So you leave. You are then told that the subject can never be discussed in front of A because it will cause a panic attack. And yet A keeps brining it up in a “joking” manner.

A refuses to confront the person who started these “rumors”. And this rumor could really blow up A’s whole life. It’s a pretty big deal. No confrontation, no discussion, nothing. Just ignore it and hope it goes away.

The person says they have proof. I have not seen it. But if I was A, I would call the person out. Ask to see the proof. Take the power away from them. Would other’s not do this?

Maybe I am wrong. And I have never had a panic attack so not sure how it works. But it seems like avoidance in this situation. Part of what A is upset about is talking about it to A rather than just having the conversation with the A’s SO. Wouldn’t that be going behind A’s back?

If someone heard something really bad about you, would you rather they go straight to you or to someone else first?

Just trying to maybe see the other side of this and hoping to get some of the trust back.

If your description is accurate, A is either hiding something or has a mental illness. Or both.

 

[luvsJack]

I ah e thought a lot about this today and I do appreciate all the comments suggestions and advise.

I will continue to talk to dd about all of our concerns. The jealousy and the possible control issues. And any hints of emotional or mental abuse.

Some things I won’t change. I will continue talking to her every day just as I talked to my own mother every day until her death two years ago. It’s just the way we are.

For now the wedding is on hold due to finances. So that helps take the pressure off.

She has been told that she can always cancel and she understands that. I told her there is never a point of no return. She can always back out at the last second and we can just have a big ol party. I will continue to make sure she knows that.

She says that his priority for her is to finish school and for now that means not working. I can accept that as long as she knows that doesn’t hold her there. And she seems to understand that. She has no expenses that can’t be handled without him. Her moving out from their house would change nothing for school.

I do have a lot of concerns. And will continue to keep an open dialog with her. My dil plans to have some girl outings with her and talk to her also.

Again I do thank everyone for your input.

 

[Shanti]

Oh Lordy, I am making a mess of this secret stuff.

Ok it is my daughter and her fiancé who she lives with. I was contacted by someone who never said he cheated but that the whole time they have been together, he has been trying to get back with his ex. That is the part I didn’t need an answer on.

We talked to them together. We never talked to him alone. He is mad that we didn’t just talk to dd. But funny enough, the last time we wanted to see dd alone to talk about school and what was going on at the time, he almost had a panic attack. Waited until they weren’t together and called and told her she needed to move home so he wouldn’t be blamed for messing up her education-which wasn’t even close to what we were wanting to talk to her about. Had her just about hysterical. When we have gone down to see her when he is working nights, he wants it to be that we meet him to go eat on his lunch hour.

His ex claims he was mentally abusive part of which was cutting her off from her friends and family. While dd has not been cut off from any of us, we have seen some behavior we questioned. And what the ex related seemed to fill in those answers. For instance, he had to work Christmas Eve. She was coming to her grandmother’s. He got mad because she was leaving an hour before he went to work to get there. She left crying because he made her feel guilty. Other times he has made her feel like she couldn’t spend the gas money to come see us. We agree to put gas in her car and he backs off.

Since we basically have to go to her, it would have been impossible to see her without him.

We really don’t care if he was talking to his ex. That is for dd to decide if she trusts him or if it is true.

And both of them said immediately that they knew this was being claimed( that he was talking to his ex) Ok, no problem. Everything is good. And then he wanted to know why we believed the person telling me over him. I told him we didn’t. But some other things that were said had us concerned and we felt it necessary to talk to them. That is when he went out and called his mom, cane back in and went to the bedroom and wouldn’t come out. I never had a chance to say anything else.

We do care if he is abusive in any way.
I did talk to Dd alone about it the next day.

Just a few months ago we really liked this guy. Thought he was great for dd. Truly felt this relationship was great. And then other stuff started going on. She had a friend that both she and ds were very close to. Well the fiancé decided he doesn’t like the friend for one reason or another and they are no longer friends. We haven’t said anything one way or the other about it. Ds has questioned it as he is still friends with the guy but I told him he had to ask dd.

Now the fiancé has decided he doesn’t like Ds. But when asked why, he doesn’t actually have an answer. I think the last one that was given was he is disrespectful. How? “It’s not worth explaing”. ????? So far dd’s answer has been “well he is my brother so get over it”.

The problem with not dealing with this,imo, is it’s not going away. This proof has been offered to several people, ds included. Dd and her bf, do not have anything to do with the people who have this “proof” but they do hang out with and are friends with a lot of the same people. (His decision that he doesn’t like ds seems to coincide with finding out ds has been offered the proof although Ds has not seen it and said specifically he didn’t want to see it).

And according to dd, his mom is going to handle it by getting revenge and hurting them like they hurt her son. Ok, not something I want dd to be a part of.

I spent part of yesterday with both of them. He doesn’t act mad in any way but keeps making jokes about cheating. And making cracks toward ds. But I have been told that none of this can be discussed as it will cause a panic attack.

Part of our issue with dealing with this is we have sort of been down this road before. When ds married the first time we had some strong suspicions about the girl. We actually saw her with some guys when ds was out of town one night. Ds would not see it or hear it. They got married. 5 years later, his whole word got torn out from under him.

The decision is whether to sign for her to get married. She can’t marry in this state until she is 21. That will put the wedding off another year which is what we have decided to do.

Don't even think about signing for her to marry this guy. He is bad news. Quite possibly a psychopath and an abuser, but even if he isn't, his negative patterns of interaction with everyone, including your daughter, are really bad signs.

 

[Wishing on a star]

ooops... double post????

 

[Wishing on a star]

I am so afraid that it is an effort in futility to try to give advice and help the OP, in order to help and protect her daughter, when the OP's own 'lens' and viewpoints and beliefs seem to have contributed to the problem.

Having said that... this also bothers me:

She says that his priority for her is to finish school and for now that means not working. I can accept that.....

What about the DD's priorities and her best interests?

My son has achieved, at his age, a HUGE amount of self confidence, independence, etc... because he has always been working and bringing in money to provide for these things... since he was 13....
Male, Female, Son, Daughter... I would never be okay with my child giving that up to be dependent on somebody, without the benefits of marriage, etc..

Remember, initially it was going to be 'a long engagement'....
Now it is 'let MOMMY arrange for our marriage, ASAP....'

This guy is just too quick to collude with his mommy to get what he wants.
This detail is one of those things that I had mentioned before is just 'scary' off.

 

[Sydney2977]

She was living in the dorm. Her scholarships and financial aid covered room and board and she worked to pay for whatever she needed that it didn't pay for. She wasn't paying for it then either, not really. She will graduate and May and her scholarships and financial aid have already covered it.

If they broke up tomorrow, she would come home. They live an hour from us. Her school is about half way in between. That's why we never really felt like she was dependent on him nor did we. She has options. Its not like she would have to quit school or anything. If she had a job down there she could drive back and forth until she found something up here. I mean its about an hour away but its not like the other side of the world or anything.

They came to an agreement about this semester (the only time she hasn't worked) because of her needing to get things done to be able to work in her field. Whether she was with him or not, she wouldn't be working this semester.

Thank you for clarifying. At least she does have options for living situations should they break up and she doesn't have to feel trapped or that she needs to stay with him should things get worse. The fact that she can come home easily because you are close and that she will have a degree and can start working to support herself in a few months is also a plus.

My DH is retired military, and we moved halfway across the country when we got married. Most people he worked with were in the same situation and those co-workers become like family. We have known couples where the wife feels stuck because she doesn't have an education, is far from family, and/or kids are involved so she has stayed in a mentally and/or physically abusive relationship. Like some PP's have said, these women married to "get away" from their small towns, families, etc., and then were in worse situations. Some of the things you have mentioned just sound all too familiar.

Again, as her mom just continue to be there for her and love her.

 

[luvsJack]

I am afraid that this is an effort in futility to try to give the OP advice, in order to help and protect her daughter, when the OP's own viewpoints and beliefs continue to contribute to the problem....

What exactly do you want me to do?

Stop answering the phone?

Make her get a job and give up the internship?

Go down and kidnap her and make her move home?

Tell her brothers not to look out for her?

I do want and expect her to be independent. And she always has been. He pays for the roof over her head but she is not dependent on that roof. She does not need him to do anything for her at this point nor will she after graduation. He is paying for it but she doesn't need it. There is a huge difference in needing someone to support you or help support you and having options at all times. One of the differences in her and the women he has dated is that she doesn't "need" him to do anything. Her objective is to graduate and get a job as a personal trainer. Her objective is to use her knowledge in that to help broaden the business that her and her brother have. Her ultimate goal is to own her own gym. She hasn't lost her sight on her goals. I can't fault him for making this a priority as it is one for her too. It is their priority.

We have talked at length about abuse and the signs. We have talked about why his ex saw things the way she did or why she said the things she did. And I will keep that dialogue open with her. We have talked about how hard marriage is at any age and how it changes, how each of you change. How what you love about him now, you will hate in a year.

He did say we should let him mom plan a cheap wedding. Its not going to happen. We have come to the agreement to put it on hold for a little while. I agree with the fact that he is quick to run to his mom. But I can't change that all I can do is guide dd to see it for herself. I have to be careful not to put her on the defensive about him because that will stop all conversations about him. I don't want to do that.

I can listen to the things that make her angry and tell her to "just pack up and come home" which is only going to make her mad or I can listen and guide her to make a choice of what she should do. The former turns off the dialogue, the latter keeps it open. And seeing it for herself is the ticket to her making the right choice. We have even had the conversation that at some point they will have an argument that is big enough that she will pack up and come home. Maybe for an hour, maybe a day, maybe a week and maybe for good. But when that happens, we are there if she wants to talk and we are there just to be there for her.

When I say her brother looks out for her, I don't mean he follows her around like a body guard. I mean he watches and listens and makes sure all is well. He doesn't let anyone take advantage of her and he does talk to her about it to show her what to watch out for. He is guiding her in this business. And it is a cut throat business, so his guidance is needed. He does give his opinion of things the bf says or does but honestly she takes it a little different from him. And if someone along the way tried to hurt her, I am sure they would have to answer to him but that isn't likely to happen.

I can sit here and say we made a grave mistake by not fighting her on moving in with him. But then were would we be right now? She would still be where she is, she would feel like she couldn't just tell us if something was wrong and she would feel like she really doesn't have options. That isn't better. And that is why we made the choice we made. She is 19 years old, as hard as it is, she is an adult.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I do understand!!!
You said, where would we be right now.... nobody can answer that.

It is the here and now that is what matters.

I suppose my one thought, in my last post, is that the focus seems to include/involve his thoughts, reasons, objectives....

His justifications for encouraging her to move in with him right away, not be working, etc... would not even begin to be on my radar.
Those things would not make it okay.
Empowering my child has always been the only thing on my radar.

There seems to be a lot of justifying going on here.

 

[nd5056]

Can you learn to trust someone?
...

Trust is not something anyone deserves, it's something we all have to earn!

.

 

[katie111]

I have a couple questions that I asked before but you have not addressed. What is the "proof" that you mention in your first posts and what is it regarding? Is the rumor that he actually cheated on your daughter or did he just try to cheat on her with his ex? And why would that make him lose his job? Why not get the proof and see if the rumors are true or not?

Does he have a degree or is wrestling his long term career goal? If that is his career goal, that would be enough a red flag for me.

Also, does your daughter see her friends at all, for like nights out? I'm guessing no, if he was mad that she left an hour early for Christmas Eve. Do any of her friends live near them? And what do they think of the BF? Often friends have a much better perspective that we do as parents.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Idk why but I have an overwhelming urge to post this story here:

Warning, it is very graphic. ETA and the pictures, as they say, are worth a thousand words.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5198105/Nobody-called-cops-woman-beaten-death-husband.html

I apologize in advance if anyone finds this offensive.

I've just read a lot of stories, almost daily, actually, where women are beaten or killed when they try to leave men who are overly controlling. It starts almost insidiously. Little by little, more and more is taken away.

This is why so many here are trying to say it's of utmost importance that she keeps her independence.

I think it's splitting hairs as far as the rent goes. Bottom line is that he seems to be in control here, and it will only likely progress, even subtlely.

 

[MamaBelle4]

Idk why but I have an overwhelming urge to post this story here:

Warning, it is very graphic. ETA and the pictures, as they say, are worth a thousand words.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5198105/Nobody-called-cops-woman-beaten-death-husband.html

I apologize in advance if anyone finds this offensive.

I've just read a lot of stories, almost daily, actually, where women are beaten or killed when they try to leave men who are overly controlling. It starts almost insidiously. Little by little, more and more is taken away.

This is why so many here are trying to say it's of utmost importance that she keeps her independence.

I think it's splitting hairs as far as the rent goes. Bottom line is that he seems to be in control here, and it will only likely progress, even subtlely.

I like how the article keeps referring to him as a beast or monster. But the people who were sent pictures or videos and DID NOTHING are also monsters. How can you just ignore that?

So sickening and sad. Poor soul. I hope her children find peace.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I like how the article keeps referring to him as a beast or monster. But the people who were sent pictures or videos and DID NOTHING are also monsters. How can you just ignore that?

So sickening and sad. Poor soul. I hope her children find peace.

I don't know. Perhaps it was their "normal" too, idk.

I actually wish we knew more of the background, and how it started, what occurred, etc. I think it would be an eye opener to many of our young women today because it's hard for anyone to imagine something like that happening with someone they love. I shared it with my own DD20.

 

[morgan98]

What exactly do you want me to do?

Stop answering the phone?

Make her get a job and give up the internship?

Go down and kidnap her and make her move home?

Tell her brothers not to look out for her?

I do want and expect her to be independent. And she always has been. He pays for the roof over her head but she is not dependent on that roof. She does not need him to do anything for her at this point nor will she after graduation. He is paying for it but she doesn't need it. There is a huge difference in needing someone to support you or help support you and having options at all times. One of the differences in her and the women he has dated is that she doesn't "need" him to do anything. Her objective is to graduate and get a job as a personal trainer. Her objective is to use her knowledge in that to help broaden the business that her and her brother have. Her ultimate goal is to own her own gym. She hasn't lost her sight on her goals. I can't fault him for making this a priority as it is one for her too. It is their priority.

We have talked at length about abuse and the signs. We have talked about why his ex saw things the way she did or why she said the things she did. And I will keep that dialogue open with her. We have talked about how hard marriage is at any age and how it changes, how each of you change. How what you love about him now, you will hate in a year.

He did say we should let him mom plan a cheap wedding. Its not going to happen. We have come to the agreement to put it on hold for a little while. I agree with the fact that he is quick to run to his mom. But I can't change that all I can do is guide dd to see it for herself. I have to be careful not to put her on the defensive about him because that will stop all conversations about him. I don't want to do that.

I can listen to the things that make her angry and tell her to "just pack up and come home" which is only going to make her mad or I can listen and guide her to make a choice of what she should do. The former turns off the dialogue, the latter keeps it open. And seeing it for herself is the ticket to her making the right choice. We have even had the conversation that at some point they will have an argument that is big enough that she will pack up and come home. Maybe for an hour, maybe a day, maybe a week and maybe for good. But when that happens, we are there if she wants to talk and we are there just to be there for her.

When I say her brother looks out for her, I don't mean he follows her around like a body guard. I mean he watches and listens and makes sure all is well. He doesn't let anyone take advantage of her and he does talk to her about it to show her what to watch out for. He is guiding her in this business. And it is a cut throat business, so his guidance is needed. He does give his opinion of things the bf says or does but honestly she takes it a little different from him. And if someone along the way tried to hurt her, I am sure they would have to answer to him but that isn't likely to happen.

I can sit here and say we made a grave mistake by not fighting her on moving in with him. But then were would we be right now? She would still be where she is, she would feel like she couldn't just tell us if something was wrong and she would feel like she really doesn't have options. That isn't better. And that is why we made the choice we made. She is 19 years old, as hard as it is, she is an adult.

OP. again I am not picking on you, but how can you say she is 19 and has always been independent? For goodness sakes, she has completed 3 semesters of college and has been living with this boyfriend for a part of it. I understand she lived in the dorm for a year on a scholarship and I agree that is somewhat independent, but not like go out and pay your own expenses independent. He is paying a good portion of her costs and saying her option to come and live and home makes her independent? Again, I do not expect a 19 year old to be able to 100% pay all living expenses, insurance, etc. but going from his place back to yours does not make her independent. It gives her options, perhaps. However, think of how hard it would probably be for her to leave him only to move back home. That would probably be a tough pill for her to swallow.

And, I am sure I do not understand, but this whole wrestling subculture just sounds like trouble. Perhaps that is be making a big leap, but I am not sure it is really something to want a career in as a woman.

ETA: I understand he is supporting her this semester because it is important for him to have her focus on finishing school. I am sure you are going to say many parents say the same thing to their college students. However, I would venture to say having a parent say it and your boyfriend say it are two very different things. The boyfriend saying it may very well come with some "strings" attached.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I will make an assumption that she has never been independent, mature, empowered, etc.... If the underlying message, since she was a small child, is that she, more or less, should have the 'guys' looking out for her.

Currently, she is even less independent, as she is entangled with her brother and this guy, and whomever else...
I don't think I am seeing any independence here.

All of this is even more illustrated by the fact that she never needed him to 'finish' school.
He has nothing to do with her school. If this cut off a few months of time, and gets her the degree/certification a little early..... so what... hey... whatever....

I see him as using this as some kind of smoke and mirrors 'justification', and actually getting away with it....

 

[sk!mom]

Also, does your daughter see her friends at all, for like nights out? I'm guessing no, if he was mad that she left an hour early for Christmas Eve. Do any of her friends live near them? And what do they think of the BF? Often friends have a much better perspective that we do as parents.

This is a very good question! If she has stopped spending time with friends, then this is a huge red flag.

In most healthy relationships, a partner would encourage time with friends because they too want to keep those friend relationships.

OP. again I am not picking on you, but how can you say she is 19 and has always been independent? For goodness sakes, she has completed 3 semesters of college and has been living with this boyfriend for a part of it. I understand she lived in the dorm for a year on a scholarship and I agree that is somewhat independent, but not like go out and pay your own expenses independent. He is paying a good portion of her costs and saying her option to come and live and home makes her independent? Again, I do not expect a 19 year old to be able to 100% pay all living expenses, insurance, etc. but going from his place back to yours does not make her independent. It gives her options, perhaps. However, think of how hard it would probably be for her to leave him only to move back home. That would probably be a tough pill for her to swallow.

This is what I was getting at upthread but Morgan said it perfectly.

By comparison, my DD21 has lived 4 hours away for all of college. In the dorm 1 year and now this is the 3rd year in an apartment with roommates. We sometimes text daily but only talk every week or so. She works part time for gas and spending money. We pay all school expenses after scholarships, still have her on our insurances and cell plan, and give her a monthly stipend to cover groceries and living.

She's independent in that she manages the money that she earns and we give. However, we call this baby adulting and not true independence. She manages day to day life, has kept the same job all 4 years, and keeps up with school on her own. But she is far from truly independent since we (her parents) are still providing 90% of her livelihood. She'll graduate in May, move to a new city, start that first adult job, take over her own expenses, we'll cut the monthly stipend, and THEN she'll be independent.

A 19 year old who has never paid her own bills and has only lived with parents and now an adult bf has never been independent in my view.