Transgenders and bathrooms....

[LisaR]

True. But this thread and my question were about those that would masquerade as a specific gender just to get into that gender's bathroom for nefarious purposes.

FTR, I was never suggesting that transgendered people were perverts. What I was suggesting is that perverts may masquerade as transgendered just to get into the bathroom that they want to get into.

Yes, pervs will be pervs. I'm wondering if the law would give a male perv masquerading as a transgender to get into the women's room some legal protection. He could say "Hey, I identify as female so I can go in the women's bathroom." Maybe all he's doing in there is standing around and leering at women as they go in and out of the stalls. Maybe he's looking at the women's feet under the stall walls and making yummy noises. Would either of these behaviors be illegal? This law gives him another avenue for his pervy behavior in a place where women feel particularly vulnerable. I suppose it is the same for men in the men's room but men are not likely to feel physically threatened by women. They could, but not likely.

Perverse behavior happens outside of the bathroom as well. We're focusing on the behavior that happens inside the bathroom.

Transgendered people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify. I have no problem with that. They aren't the ones my questions are about. My questions are about the dishonest ones and what we can do about them. Or can we not do anything about it and we're all just going to have to learn to deal with it?

If your only concern is that non trans men who are perverts will now masquerade as trans women to get into women's restrooms, why is this something you are suddenly concerned about? What's changed in your world to make you suddenly worried?

As you know, trans people have been using public restrooms for years without issues. You mean there wasn't a single pervert who noticed this the entire time and decided to give it a try himself? It took the idiot law makers in NC for perverted guys to say, "OMG! This is fantastic! I am going to dress like a female and prey on little girls in restrooms everywhere. If only I had thought of this earlier." You know for a fact that 99.9% of public restrooms aren't guarded. There is absolutely nothing in place to stop people from going into the restroom of their choosing and there never has been. As we have discovered, most sick individuals don't prey on kids in restrooms, thankfully. Why are you expecting that to suddenly change?

 

[LisaR]

I was unfortunate enough to go to a high school where we had one big open shower area. I really don't remember showering after gym class, but I played sports so those community showers were the norm. Yuck!

 

[Hikergirl]

FTR, I was never suggesting that transgendered people were perverts. What I was suggesting is that perverts may masquerade as transgendered just to get into the bathroom that they want to get into.

But what was stopping them before?

 

[msjprincess]

If your only concern is that non trans men who are perverts will now masquerade as trans women to get into women's restrooms, why is this something you are suddenly concerned about? What's changed in your world to make you suddenly worried?

As you know, trans people have been using public restrooms for years without issues. You mean there wasn't a single pervert who noticed this the entire time and decided to give it a try himself? It took the idiot law makers in NC for perverted guys to say, "OMG! This is fantastic! I am going to dress like a female and prey on little girls in restrooms everywhere. If only I had thought of this earlier." You know for a fact that 99.9% of public restrooms aren't guarded. There is absolutely nothing in place to stop people from going into the restroom of their choosing and there never has been. As we have discovered, most sick individuals don't prey on kids in restrooms, thankfully. Why are you expecting that to suddenly change?

Exactly. Nothing has changed. Why is this an issue all of a sudden?

 

[Uncle Remus]

What the heck are "yummy noises?"

 

[wvjules]

What the heck are "yummy noises?"

I don't know but I do know that chewing is NOT a yummy noise. lol

 

[mom2my3kids]

our world is so messed up...

 

[Hikergirl]

What the heck are "yummy noises?"

I don't even want to know

 

[BLAZEY]

Women's restrooms have stalls, and I have never once the need to wonder what the gender of the person in the next stall is. I have a young daughter and she and I go together when needed.

 

[JaxDad]

But what was stopping them before?

I don't know DizBelle or her specific opinion on all this, but I am going to jump into this against by own better judgment.

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

Donning flame-retardant suit...

 

[msjprincess]

I don't know DizBelle or her specific opinion on all this, but I am going to jump into this against by own better judgment.

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

Donning flame-retardant suit...

But the point is, there is no new law that allows transgender people in the bathroom. The only new law are the ones that disallow transgender people to use they bathroom of the gender they associate with. Nothing has changed. Where do you think transgender people have been going the bathroom all these years?

 

[kamik86]

I don't know DizBelle or her specific opinion on all this, but I am going to jump into this against by own better judgment.

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

Donning flame-retardant suit...

I think the part that everyone is questioning is if you make it so that you have to use the restroom of your anatomy then any man can just use the female restroom and claim he was born female. Any female could use the mens and claim she was born male. The only way your going to get any further in this situation is if you go through with arresting these people to be able to actually check, and no one is going to do that because imagine if the person you just arrested really was a trans person that was born female and the firestorm you would be under then.

So thinking like the enemy/criminal tells me that either way you make that law they would have an out.

REally those trying to "solve" this non-existant problem has now brought it up and allowed any pervert that hadn't already thought of this to think of it. If we find there is any uptick in people using the wrong restroom to be perverted I think this will be why.

 

[tzolkin]

I don't know DizBelle or her specific opinion on all this, but I am going to jump into this against by own better judgment.

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

Donning flame-retardant suit...

I understand what you're staying, but I just don't see where the NC law would make this any less likely to happen. (Pervy men entering a women's restroom). IMO, it actually may make it easier.

If trans men (many who appear to be biologically male) are now supposed to use the women's restroom (because that's what's on their birth certificate), it's now perfectly fine for any man (full beard, men's clothing, etc) to walk into the women's restroom without being questioned (since he would blend in with any trans men doing the same). The "perverts" wouldn't need to even pretend to be a woman by changing their appearance to gain access.

 

[sunshinehighway]

FTR, I was never suggesting that transgendered people were perverts. What I was suggesting is that perverts may masquerade as transgendered just to get into the bathroom that they want to get into.

That argument doesn't make sense because it's not something that's happening.
The other problem with it is you are saying it's ok to be suspicious of transgendered people because they might just be perverts in disguise. While it's not coming out and saying all transgender people are perverts, it is saying they could be so let's treat them like they are.

 

[JaxDad]

But the point is, there is no new law that allows transgender people in the bathroom. The only new law are the ones that disallow transgender people to use they bathroom of the gender they associate with. Nothing has changed. Where do you think transgender people have been going the bathroom all these years?

The NC law was in response to a Charlotte, NC law that allowed people to use facilities according to their gender identity.

I don't really care where transgender people have been going to the bathroom all these years.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Is a pervert is going to hide behind claiming to be transgendered to go into the opposite bathroom to commit a crime, the crime has been committed, and they will be charged with a crime. Claiming they're transgendered doesn't negate the fact that they've committed a crime. And claiming you're transgendered doesn't make you transgendered. If it were a case before a court, then evidence will be presented…psychological evaluations, transgendered history, etc. And if a cisgendered person wants to claim that they're actually transgendered, I'd be happy to start a gofundme to help them transition to their suddenly newfound identity.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't know DizBelle or her specific opinion on all this, but I am going to jump into this against by own better judgment.

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

Donning flame-retardant suit...

If a man walks into a women's bathroom, what exactly would they be charged with anywhere except NC?

There is no one guarding bathroom areas in public places. People are all mad at Target and yet no one was making sure the right gender was going in the right restroom in the past. Is someone now going to be the "pants" police and make sure everyone entering a restroom is the correct gender? There hasn't been one thing stopping any number of perverts from walking into the opposite gender's restroom at any given time. All these years we have managed fine without laws to govern the restroom. Transgender isn't a new thing. Perverted men could have dressed up like a woman at any point and time to go into the women's room and honestly they still can if not in NC. No one has made it a law that they COULD go to the women's room and say they identify as a woman, only a law that says they CAN'T so I really don't get what the fuss is about.

Let's say that a trans female that looks like Caitlyn Jenner goes to a public restroom. Should she really have to go into the men's room? Can we not see the danger we could be putting her in?

 

[NHdisneylover]

People are worried about that as well. Not sure where you get that people aren't. It's just that this thread isn't about that situation.

OK. Well if people are so worried about cis people harming children in like gender restrooms, and there are more cis people than trans, why is it that these new laws only target trans people?

FTR, I was never suggesting that transgendered people were perverts. What I was suggesting is that perverts may masquerade as transgendered just to get into the bathroom that they want to get into.

and perverts may masquerade as deeply religious people in order to gain access to kids in church youth groups, or as coaches who only care about helping kids enjoy and excel at a sport in order to gain trust and access to children, or as close family friends in order to gain access to and trust of a child and their family, etc ,etc (and those examples actually happen, repeatedly, and there is a real history there,) but that doesn't mean we make laws that specifically put priests, coaches, scoutmasters, and family friends into, at best awkward and at worst historically dangerous positions just in case someone is using their position for pervy reasons.

 

[NHdisneylover]

People are worried about that as well. Not sure where you get that people aren't. It's just that this thread isn't about that situation.

Then why are these new laws only targeting the trans minority? One which is already at risk and in danger? Making that group less safe, in order negate a perceived risk to another group, a perceived risk that has NO basis in reality, makes no sense.

 

[DopeyDame]

Putting aside the NC law, are there actually laws that prohibit people from going into the opposite gender bathrooms? I always assumed this was just a social norm/courtesy kind of thing. I know I've accidentally gone into the men's room on occasion and it never occurred to me that I was breaking the law.
If a man (born a man, identifies as a man, dresses as a man) walks into a woman's room, is he breaking the law or just breaking social conventions?