Too harsh or just right?

[sdarwkcabemanmy]

DS has been misbehaving in class, not listening to his teacher and really pushing his boundaries. I mean, all kids do it at some point whether they are special needs or not, right?

Yesterday, I talked to his teacher about it and I talked to DS when we got home. As punishment, he was not allowed to watch "Imagination Movers" (one of his favorites right now) and he had to help me clean house. DH thinks I was being too harsh even though I dont' think I was. I'm more firm when it comes to rules than he is, though. DS cried for about 5 min then he got over it and didn't mention not getting to watch TV at all until after dinner.

So was I too harsh? I don't think I was, even if DH thinks so. DH's reasoning behind why I was too harsh is "Well he's only 4." That is NOT an excuse in my book. This is DS's second year at this preschool, so he KNOWS the rules and he knows he's expected to follow them.

 

[pilgrimr]

I think that the punishment is fine as long as he understood why he was punished. With our son, we do punish him, but only immediately after he does it. I don't think that he would understand if he was bad at school, and then later was punish at home (which I know they take care of the situation there).

Again, I think that you were fine. It is not like he will really be hurt by missing a little TV and helping mom around the house.

 

[bookwormde]

As long as you knew the whole story from school, and was not significantly influenced by a manifestation of his neurovariation and your child understood and owned his unacceptable behavior, you are fine. One thing to remember is not to use his area(s) of special interest as punishments (except in the most extreme cases). Understanding consequences is an important skill for our children as long as the child considers them to be logical and reasonable.

bookwormde

 

[KirstenB]

Nah...you were straight up

 

[sdarwkcabemanmy]

As long as you knew the whole story from school, and was not significantly influenced by a manifestation of his neurovariation and your child understood and owned his unacceptable behavior, you are fine. One thing to remember is not to use his area(s) of special interest as punishments (except in the most extreme cases). Understanding consequences is an important skill for our children as long as the child considers them to be logical and reasonable.

bookwormde

Whoa..say that in English?

When we talked about his day (something I do every day when he gets home), I asked him if he'd been listening to Mrs. M and Mrs.M2. He said no, he hadn't. He even told me he didn't make good choices (which is something they say at school all the time.."Are you making good choices? Did you make a good choice?").

Today, when he got home and we talked about his day, he told me he made good choices. I asked him if he listened to his teachers and did what they asked him to do. You know what he said? "Yes I did. I din't like it, but I did it."

Usually for him a punishment is a time out, but I didn't think that a timeout was appropriate in this case. Usually I use a timeout when I catch him doing something he's not supposed to do or when he outright refuses to do something when I've asked him to do it. He's really been pushing his boundaries the last few months since school started because he's become more..I don't know if defiant is the right word but he's saying "NO" to me and DH more often that's for sure. Generally, he is fairly well behaved though and always has been. This disobeying shocked his teacher the first time he did it because he NEVER tells anybody no. Ever. He's always been one of the best behaved kids in the class.

I just have to keep saying "We will get through this..it's just a stage. It's JUST a stage.".

 

[bookwormde]

Sorry about the “clinical speak”.

It is very easy overlay innate social abilities and perceptions on our children’s “behaviors”. For example our children tend to be much less discriminatory and all things (organization of information, culturally, gender, age hierarchy etc.), When a neurotypical child (one with a mind which is “wired” like the majority of individuals in our society) is told to do something by an adult there in an innate social impetus to follow that direction (less so as they get older) because they see adults as different (superior) and having the answers. AS children typically just view themselves as “small adults” who while not having accumulated as much “data” as there larger “peers” still have the same or greater ability to make logical decision about things (this is especially true since NTs social wiring often causes “logic faults” due to the need to maintain this social construct.

TO be effective as possible in “discipline” you need to do a “social autopsy” of a situation with the child and preferably with input from other s involved to find out the root “cause or trigger” of the undesirable behavior. Often it is just because of a core neurological perception differential from the neurotypical social constructs. When this happens it is important to “brief” the child on why these “social constructs” are important to the NT individual and the NT society as a whole and to provide as possible the logic behind the social construct, if there is any (if there is not any logic to it then appealing to making the other person “comfortable” can be a good procedure). Sometimes the behavior is because of significant “outside factors” such as sensory issues, accumulated anxiety levels, nature and methodology of the delivery of a request or direction (it is very common for our children to fell like they are “being attacked” if and individual is “pushy” or demanding particularly if the child cannot fathom the “logic” of the request) or auditory processing issues interfere with “fully taking in the request. Also processing time for items requiring a social overly are typically longer, so if pressed for a quick response a “impulsive answer/response will occure which may be seen as a behavior problem rather than a time allowance processing problem. Often impulsivity in our children can be greatly reduces by a program which “trains” our children to take a few extra second before responding or reacting, thereby allowing for this extra processing time and the intellectual social skills which have been learned to be used.

I guess this is still a lot of “Clinical speak” but the in the end punishment should be about “intent” not necessarily about “bad choices” since these may occur because of many other factors which are better handled by such tings as a better form of “input”, allowing for adequate processing time, identifying and adding missing skills (socials skills, theory of mind skills, executive function skills etc.), reducing background anxiety (which greatly impacts processing capacities) and any of many other reasons which take time to evaluate.

One analogy I use is would you punish a child with a significant physical disability who regularly “spills is milk” when this is caused by poor mind/muscle coordination and diminished tactile sensitivity? Of course not that would be abusive. You would provide therapies to improve his “skills” in this area and modify his environment (use a more stable cup) to reduce the number of the occurrences and the severity of the impact (use a spill resistant cup). This is not to say that the child may not “spill the milk” sometime intentionally but great care must be made in determining this intent.

One other issue is that many of our children find a “time out” to be a restorative event and not the “social punishment” that NT children consider it.

Also “I did not like it” often translates into “it is very difficult for me or “it make no logical sense”

A reading or rereading of Atwood’s works often helps me to refocus on this challenge and its appropriate solutions.

While time and maturity do help some with this situation only a comprehensive program addressing all of the about contributing issues really allow a child to “fit in” well in Neurotypical generalized society.

bookwormde

 

[mechurchlady]

First you need to know why your son is not paying attention. He does know he is having problems which is a very important fact. Is it allergies or something someone said. Maybe there is something new on a bulletin board that has his attention or he now is thinking about something.

If you feel he is going through a normal boy stage of defiance then the punishment would be appropriate IF he understands that it is a punishment for being defiant. It seems from what you say that he does know that he has been bad in class. Do not forget to reward good behavior.

This is just the beginning, lol.
Stock up on aspirins and chocolates, lol.

 

[sdarwkcabemanmy]

While time and maturity do help some with this situation only a comprehensive program addressing all of the about contributing issues really allow a child to “fit in” well in Neurotypical generalized society

I agreed with you somewhat, once I waded through all the clinical speak.

First you need to know why your son is not paying attention. He does know he is having problems which is a very important fact. Is it allergies or something someone said. Maybe there is something new on a bulletin board that has his attention or he now is thinking about something.

It's not allergies, at least not food-based ones. He does have seasonal allergies, which we treat with OTC meds. He also has a skin allergy to soybean oil..which we are considering investigating further. When a soybean oil-based product (such as ketchup or lotion) touches his skin he gets a big red rash. If it does that to his OUTSIDE I can't imagine what it does to his INSIDE. It's something we'll have to investigate, but for now he doesn't seem to have any problems with it, except when it touches his skin. He doesn't complain of anything after eating a soybean oil-based product, so maybe it's just a skin thing.

There are quite a few things in his classroom that MIGHT get his attention other than the teacher..it's a pre-K class, so there are pictures all over, a big calendar, a list of who's doing which job that week, etc. I can see how he might get distracted.

If you feel he is going through a normal boy stage of defiance then the punishment would be appropriate IF he understands that it is a punishment for being defiant. It seems from what you say that he does know that he has been bad in class. Do not forget to reward good behavior.

This is just the beginning, lol.
Stock up on aspirins and chocolates, lol.

I really believe it is just a normal stage that all kids go through. Usually he is very well behaved, unless he's really tired or really hungry. This is the kid that NOTHING seems to bother. Ever. Last year, he won the "Best Attitude" award for his class because nothing..not having a car wreck (which happened twice), not a fire drill, NOTHING seemed to phase this kid. Heck..we even took him to WDW at the height of peak season when it was HOT HOT HOT and so humid you could drink the air and over the course of the week, he only had one meltdown (which was our fault, really, for pushing him too hard). He behaved beautifully in situations when most kids his age would've been melting down, getting cranky, etc.

 

[BeckyScott]

I don't know if defiant is the right word but he's saying "NO" to me and DH more often that's for sure. Generally, he is fairly well behaved though and always has been. This disobeying shocked his teacher the first time he did it because he NEVER tells anybody no. Ever. He's always been one of the best behaved kids in the class.

It may be part of a more general delay he's having. We had this happen, too, at about the same age.

Most kids will naturally go thru a "NO" stage, but I'm thinking it happens at about age 2? Our kids are just on their own schedule.

DS, he was very laid-back about that stuff. To the point where he'd let other kids just come up and take away his toys or food, and not say anything. You know you're dealing with some social skill deficits, and that was one of them. Sometime during preschool, he figured out how to use his voice to get what he wanted. He realized that if a kid took away his toy, and he screamed "NO!", either it would scare the kid away (he was in a SpEd preschool so most of the other kids had "issues" too) or that an adult would come over and fix the problem.

I don't think it's defiance as much as it is just normal social development, delayed. Look at it as the first step toward self-advocacy.

 

[kaffinito]

I agree with BeckyScott that he's exhibiting the first steps towards social advocacy. However, kids need to learn to follow the rules, whether they be in a classroom or out in other public situations. A little defiance is very appropriate in kids - it's how they learn to establish their identity and sense of self. My nice is a "no" kid. She's constantly having trouble in school because she takes it to the other extreme. She's just plain defiant, and won't follow the rules because she doesn't want to.

I think your punishment was spot on. Kids need to learn their boundaries, and knowing that misbehaving in school will be dealt with at home is a very good way of establishing those boundaries. It also lets a child know that there will be consequences for thier actions while not at home.

 

[sdarwkcabemanmy]

Sometime during preschool, he figured out how to use his voice to get what he wanted. He realized that if a kid took away his toy, and he screamed "NO!", either it would scare the kid away (he was in a SpEd preschool so most of the other kids had "issues" too) or that an adult would come over and fix the problem.

I don't think it's defiance as much as it is just normal social development, delayed. Look at it as the first step toward self-advocacy.

I totally agree. This is something his teacher said to me the other day when I went in to speak to her. DS has always been a very laid back kid, so laid back my mom said he was permanently horizontal.

Kids need to learn their boundaries, and knowing that misbehaving in school will be dealt with at home is a very good way of establishing those boundaries. It also lets a child know that there will be consequences for thier actions while not at home.

If I have learned nothing else from watching "Super Nanny" I have learned that much.
Well that and how to execute a proper time out.

 

[disneydeb]

Whoa..say that in English?

When we talked about his day (something I do every day when he gets home), I asked him if he'd been listening to Mrs. M and Mrs.M2. He said no, he hadn't. He even told me he didn't make good choices (which is something they say at school all the time.."Are you making good choices? Did you make a good choice?").

Today, when he got home and we talked about his day, he told me he made good choices. I asked him if he listened to his teachers and did what they asked him to do. You know what he said? "Yes I did. I din't like it, but I did it."

Usually for him a punishment is a time out, but I didn't think that a timeout was appropriate in this case. Usually I use a timeout when I catch him doing something he's not supposed to do or when he outright refuses to do something when I've asked him to do it. He's really been pushing his boundaries the last few months since school started because he's become more..I don't know if defiant is the right word but he's saying "NO" to me and DH more often that's for sure. Generally, he is fairly well behaved though and always has been. This disobeying shocked his teacher the first time he did it because he NEVER tells anybody no. Ever. He's always been one of the best behaved kids in the class.

I just have to keep saying "We will get through this..it's just a stage. It's JUST a stage.".

no in our house when dgs acts up like that he loses privilges! that works . when he first started acting up and found his truck on top of the cabinets that he wanted to play with , it was in clear view and he remembered all right what he had done to lose that privilidge, i 'll tell you it didn't take long til all we had to say when he started acting up was ya wanna lose privlidges and he'd tow the line and settle down right away.

 

[disneydeb]

Sorry about the “clinical speak”.

It is very easy overlay innate social abilities and perceptions on our children’s “behaviors”. For example our children tend to be much less discriminatory and all things (organization of information, culturally, gender, age hierarchy etc.), When a neurotypical child (one with a mind which is “wired” like the majority of individuals in our society) is told to do something by an adult there in an innate social impetus to follow that direction (less so as they get older) because they see adults as different (superior) and having the answers. AS children typically just view themselves as “small adults” who while not having accumulated as much “data” as there larger “peers” still have the same or greater ability to make logical decision about things (this is especially true since NTs social wiring often causes “logic faults” due to the need to maintain this social construct.

TO be effective as possible in “discipline” you need to do a “social autopsy” of a situation with the child and preferably with input from other s involved to find out the root “cause or trigger” of the undesirable behavior. Often it is just because of a core neurological perception differential from the neurotypical social constructs. When this happens it is important to “brief” the child on why these “social constructs” are important to the NT individual and the NT society as a whole and to provide as possible the logic behind the social construct, if there is any (if there is not any logic to it then appealing to making the other person “comfortable” can be a good procedure). Sometimes the behavior is because of significant “outside factors” such as sensory issues, accumulated anxiety levels, nature and methodology of the delivery of a request or direction (it is very common for our children to fell like they are “being attacked” if and individual is “pushy” or demanding particularly if the child cannot fathom the “logic” of the request) or auditory processing issues interfere with “fully taking in the request. Also processing time for items requiring a social overly are typically longer, so if pressed for a quick response a “impulsive answer/response will occure which may be seen as a behavior problem rather than a time allowance processing problem. Often impulsivity in our children can be greatly reduces by a program which “trains” our children to take a few extra second before responding or reacting, thereby allowing for this extra processing time and the intellectual social skills which have been learned to be used.

I guess this is still a lot of “Clinical speak” but the in the end punishment should be about “intent” not necessarily about “bad choices” since these may occur because of many other factors which are better handled by such tings as a better form of “input”, allowing for adequate processing time, identifying and adding missing skills (socials skills, theory of mind skills, executive function skills etc.), reducing background anxiety (which greatly impacts processing capacities) and any of many other reasons which take time to evaluate.

One analogy I use is would you punish a child with a significant physical disability who regularly “spills is milk” when this is caused by poor mind/muscle coordination and diminished tactile sensitivity? Of course not that would be abusive. You would provide therapies to improve his “skills” in this area and modify his environment (use a more stable cup) to reduce the number of the occurrences and the severity of the impact (use a spill resistant cup). This is not to say that the child may not “spill the milk” sometime intentionally but great care must be made in determining this intent.

One other issue is that many of our children find a “time out” to be a restorative event and not the “social punishment” that NT children consider it.

Also “I did not like it” often translates into “it is very difficult for me or “it make no logical sense”

A reading or rereading of Atwood’s works often helps me to refocus on this challenge and its appropriate solutions.

While time and maturity do help some with this situation only a comprehensive program addressing all of the about contributing issues really allow a child to “fit in” well in Neurotypical generalized society.

bookwormde

we know your trying to help and sometimes ya give really good advice but i think what alot of people on this board are really looking for is someone who has some good old fashioned mommmy/daddy advice

 

[bookwormde]

I wish it were that simple, but I do learn a lot from the “good old fashioned mommy/daddy advice” on this board, I think it is important to look at it from both directions. It really gets “tough” when the clinical information conflicts with what is seen as the social standard procedures and practices.

bookwormde

 

[BeckyScott]

One analogy I use is would you punish a child with a significant physical disability who regularly “spills is milk” when this is caused by poor mind/muscle coordination and diminished tactile sensitivity? Of course not that would be abusive. You would provide therapies to improve his “skills” in this area and modify his environment (use a more stable cup) to reduce the number of the occurrences and the severity of the impact (use a spill resistant cup). This is not to say that the child may not “spill the milk” sometime intentionally but great care must be made in determining this intent.

The problem is, some things don't have an easy modification. I get the spilled milk analogy, but some things you can't just buy a sippy cup. (theoretically speaking) I've bought many a sippy cup for that very reason. But it gets tricky. And I think that the first year or two of formal school is very touch-and-go that way, the delay in social skills, thrown into an unfamiliar situation, until they have a solid understanding of the "rules". (whether they agree with them or not, that those rules exist) And for the teacher, trying to maintain some sense of military-esque precision . Of course, that's part of what preschool is for. Having said that, the OP's child is in 2nd year of preschool and should have some basic understanding of the rules, assuming that the rules and their reinforcement didn't change between years.

One other issue is that many of our children find a “time out” to be a restorative event and not the “social punishment” that NT children consider it.

Yep, we had that happen. At school they refer to it as the "safe spot" and DS was perfectly okay with going there. Nobody bothered him, he could sit and pick at his clothes for a while, he almost (dare I say it?) liked going there. Well, that really missed the point.

The only thing I would have changed, maybe, is the "had to help me with housework" part. Probably just the way I interpreted it, which is equating doing housework with punishment. Not so sure about that. If that's the case, I must have done something really wrong. I think I landed the Housework Life Sentence.

 

[bookwormde]

You are right often there are no easy answers, just a process of trying different things and “keeping lots of towels around”

I think you have identified one of the core issues with LRE, the “military-esque” social structure of the standard classroom is out of “sync” with the processing style and social development level of most spectrum children. This is one of the core reasons for a paraprofessional, expecting a teacher to do this alone is for the most part impractical.

The one thing to always remember is that “rules” are social constructs and the ones with have a limited logical basis take a lot more effort (by both the child and teacher) to become part of the routine and that any subtle variations cause significant confusion.

bookwormde