To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

I am very interested to see what happens to BQ times. The fact that the times have been getting faster over time, and with all the deferred qualifications minus well the fact most people (raises hand) are not training as hard during the last year.

Yea, there are so many additional factors above and beyond the normal BQ predictions. It looks like the cutoff for the reduced field was 7:47.

Screen Shot 2021-05-08 at 8.13.56 AM.png

About 10,000 less qualifiers were accepted, and the number of total applicants was roughly equal to the normal number of accepted. But I'm sure there were plenty of reasons why the total number of applicants were down. So it's hard to read too much into this year's numbers as a projection into the future. Hard to say all around.
 
Where to go from here? Plans for 2021

Before the Non-Cancelled Marathon had started, I had my eye on the Madison Marathon 2021 in November or maybe doing mile training.
During the Non-Cancelled Marathon, I questioned whether I wanted to run a marathon again so soon. I thought maybe of doing mile training instead.
After the Non-Cancelled Marathon, I shifted back to about 50/50 on whether I wanted to do the marathon or the mile training.

At this moment in time, I'm leaning towards the Madison Marathon in November. If I end up doing Princess 2022, then realistically it wouldn't be until Fall 2022 before I would do another marathon. I wasn't sure whether that's what I wanted for myself. So I thought maybe a line up of:

Summer/Fall 2021 - Madison Marathon
Winter 2021-2022 - Princess HM
Spring 2022 - Mile Training
Summer/Fall 2022 - Marathon

With that being said, I won't sign up for a while and will just go through the motions for the time being. I've got the Hot2Trot HM in mid-June coming up next. But realistically, there isn't enough time to get in good recovery, then training, for this race. So it's just kind of something I'll go out and do for fun. With that in mind, I took a deep look at myself and decided that my legs just aren't healthy enough after this 10 day break from running/training. I'm like 90% confident that I've got another fibula stress fracture on the back of my left leg. I had one in January 2018 after Dopey 2018 on my right leg. I went back and read through this journal describing what it felt like before the races at the tail end of training, during the races (none), and after a 10 day running hiatus (it came back). And honestly many of the things I wrote then feel quite similar to now. Back then I tried to return to running, only to have pain nearly every day. I took another week off, then came back to still the same issues. It took 35 days off from running till a return led to zero issues. So I'm thinking I need a similar 5 week break to allow things to heal up. I think this will be good all around for my body. I think in the mean time, I'll do some extremely easy cycling 4 days per week, and reintroduce some 80 day obsession workouts (AAA, TBC, and Legs (but no jumping)).

The Non-Cancelled Marathon didn't go as expected. So I sat down with the data to try and decide what to do next. Where did I think things went wrong? Up through 4/18/21, the training looked good. But I definitely fell off an edge from a HRvPace perspective during the taper. Despite the easy run days on 4/21 and 4/22 being mirrored matches to two weeks prior, there were already signs that I was starting to fade physically. And this was again evident in my long run on 4/25 when my HRvPace relationship had jumped despite good weather to 7:42 pace at 143 bpm. Turn to the race itself and it was 7:57 pace at 144 bpm. I think the tweak at the HM turn played a role, but honestly I'm not sure how much of the quad pain was from the tweak and how much was from the training itself. And what exactly about the training needed to be different for the next go-around. So I went through and laid out some options for myself:


Option 1 - Do the same training from Fall/Winter 2020

Start with a focus on 4 days per week cycling, 4 days per week running, and 2-3 days per week of McMillan Core/Legs. The cycling would be hard to start, and the running would be easy. Then with 9-11 weeks to go until race day, change the focus to hard running and easy cycling. Every once in a while would be a hard cycle, but it would be mostly easy. The cycling would drop to 3 days per week and the running would increase to 5 days per week. The hard running days would be focused on HM Tempo bricks and sustained hill loops of about 3 minutes. Maxing out at 150 min long run and around 6-6.5 hrs running (47 miles) with 5 hrs of cycling.


Option 2 - Do similar to Fall/Winter 2020, but drop the cycling to extremely easy

The same as option 1, except during the second phase of training I would drop all the cycling down from easy to extremely easy.


Option 3 - Do similar to Fall/Winter 2019, but drop the cycling to extremely easy

So I don't want to do the same cycling volume as I was doing during the Full IM High Volume training plan in 2019. So it does beg the question whether I'd be in the same fitness place in November 2021 as I was in 2019 when I ran the 1:28:40 HM. But I would very likely make all of the cycling (4 days per week throughout) extremely easy during the entire training plan. The running plan would stay the same as in 2019. The total volume of running is less than the 2020 plan (peaks at 5 hrs running vs 6-6.5 hrs running), but this plan went through multiple 150 min and 160 min LRs. This plan also had sometimes 3 hard running days per week in a 4 day plan. But the hardness of those days was debatable. Although during 2019 they were hard because I had a ton of hard cycling during that same time period.


Option 4 - Pftizinger Marathon Plan 55 mile peak/ 18 weeks

It was at this point I asked myself what the purpose of the cycling was originally. I went from 100% running to a mix of running and cycling because I had sustained multiple injuries when trying to run high volume. I had the undiagnosed stress fracture after Lakefront 2016 which resolved during the two week running break, the diagnosed fibula stress fracture after Dopey 2018, and the ankle tendonitis during Chicago 2018 training when I was doing a 70 mile peak Daniels Marathon plan. So after that, I added in cycling to reduce my running injuries. But during the time spent running and cycling, I've suffered a quad injury during Disney 2020 that left me unable to complete the race well, a hamstring injury during Daniels mile training (likely because of 3 days per week of speed training to be fair), an ankle injury during Winter 2020 (likely due to ankle hypomobility), something with my quad during the Non-Cancelled Marathon 2021, and potentially an undiagnosed fibula stress fracture in my left leg after Non-Cancelled Marathon training. So I'm not having a good track record thus far. It could easily be explained by overtraining. And maybe Options 1-3 would help mediate that. Drop the cycling from any specific type of training to simply spinning the wheels at a cadence around 85-90 rpm. So I decided to go back and look at all the training plans used for the previous 15 marathons, the PRs/race times leading into those races, the actual marathon result, and how close I came to the VDOT race equivalent performance to the other distance PR/race times.

Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 8.32.54 AM.png

So prior to doing Hansons, I trained using either a non-run/walk Galloway or FIRST without cross training. During those races, I was about 19-70 min off the predicted time. Then I started doing Hansons in Fall 2015. The first time I used Hansons, I did something I coined the Hansons Intermediate plan. I merged the Hansons Beginner with Hansons Advanced by taking the mileage from Beginner and mixing with the 5k and MT-10 sec hard workouts from Advanced. That first time out, I beat my VDOT prediction by 30 seconds. My Dopey marathon improved by 10 min vs the prior prediction performance after following Hansons Advanced. I followed Hansons Advanced again in May 2016 and was a mere 3 min off predicted. In October 2016 I did "Hansons but harder" and beat my prediction by 1:40, but suffered an undiagnosed stress fracture. I went back to Hansons Advanced during Dopey 2017, and without the HM present the day before was a mere 38 seconds off predicted time based on PRs, despite the 5k/10k being the two days prior. Then in Spring 2017 I did the Daniels 5k/10k plan and made a big jump in fitness. I followed that up with a modified Hansons Elite plan, and ran 7:43 slower than predicted. Lastly, I did a Hansons/Daniels mix for Dopey 2018 and despite having 3 races prior was only off my predicted fitness by 12 min. But I had a stress fracture after that race. Once I started running less and doing additional cycling, my marathon times have been 18 min, 30 min, and 18 min slower than predicted. That's despite going from spending 7-9 hrs running to 12-20 hrs of total training. Was the time investment still worth it, if I still got injured during the training and had lesser final results? Yes, the 2019 HM of 1:28:40 showed I can be in a good place fitness wise from the training, but I hadn't yet shown the payoff for the marathon itself. Whereas, training with the Hansons plans led me to 30s better, 3 min worse, 100s better, 38s worse, and 7:43 worse. All in all times very close to what I had run in lesser distances. And during each of those races I was injured once with an undiagnosed SF.

So I went back to the running books from Daniels, Pftiz, and Hansons and modeled the plans. I haven't done a Pftiz plan yet. So I read the book cover to cover in an afternoon. He's clearly a Daniels disciple and not that different from either Daniels or Hansons. But he has his own unique twist to the training. I went with the Pftiz 55/18 week plan which is his lower of the two in the book. It's mostly a 5 day a week plan. He flips the specificity compared to Hansons. So his plan starts with Threshold paced runs and then toward the end does 5k paced runs. The Threshold runs are way more aggressive than the Daniels versions. Where Daniels does Threshold intervals, no more than 20 min per interval, a run:rest ratio of 5min:1min, and no more than 60 min total. Pftiz does no rest Threshold runs maxing at 7 miles or 43 min. His Long runs are always progressive and cap at 20 miles (2:40 for me). He wants them broken into thirds with the first third at 20% slower than M Tempo, then 15% slower, then 10% slower. So for me that would be something like 8:24, 8:00, and 7:42. So all in all slower than what I had been doing my LRs at. He also mixes in three 10k races in the last 7 weeks of training in order to work on race preparedness. Lastly, he does fast finish long runs with M Tempo, but with a massive amount of M Tempo. It peaks at a 4 mile LR + 14 mile M Tempo. In total, the plan peaks at 7.5 hrs running and 55 miles. It has six runs of 140 min or more. I'm not too fond of what the training load calculations say the taper looks like though.


Option 5 - Hansons Advanced

Next I dusted off the Hansons book and wrote out the Hansons Advanced plan. Nothing was surprising to me as I've done this plan plenty of times prior. Three times, no injuries and good results. But I've never done the plan since my fitness jumped after Spring 2017. So I typed in the plan and looked at the numbers. The plan would peak at 8 hrs of running and 60 miles. The LR of 16 miles peaks at 128 min. Which is interesting because back in the day that was 150 min for me. The 10 mile M Tempo peak which used to be 120 min is now 97 min. Those speed days went from 90-100 min to 60-80 min. And the taper looks great per the training load data.


Option 6 - Hansons Intermediate

Lastly, I thought why not go back to my roots. Run the Hansons Intermediate plan I made in 2015 that got me a fantastic result. What would that look like now. There are some differences between the Advanced and Intermediate plan mostly revolving around an extra mile here or there on Wed/Fri/Sat. This plan would peak at 7.5 hrs and 55 miles. Never exceeding 128 min in a single run. With the LR consisting of 30% of the weekly mileage at its peak. When I finally finished writing the plan out, I said to myself, this looks easy. It looks too easy compared to what I've been doing recently and to what I've done in the past. When I did this plan in 2015, it was 8-9 hrs of running per week. And now it's 6.5-7.5 of running per week. But then I reiterated to myself that the plan looked too easy. And that's when I decided it was the right plan for the moment. I wanted to try and run a plan off my new fitness level that on paper looked too easy to me. Stop reaching for more and that ultimate level, and see what happens when I grab the plan off the lowest shelf instead of the highest shelf.

So after days of data crunching and soul searching, that's where I'm at right now. Mentally I want to try and do the Hansons Intermediate plan from 2015. No cycling during the plan. Do some 80DO strength workouts here and there. And then run the Madison M in November to see what happens. Obviously, if circumstances change, then I'll adapt. But that's where my mind is right now.
 
Where to go from here? Plans for 2021

Before the Non-Cancelled Marathon had started, I had my eye on the Madison Marathon 2021 in November or maybe doing mile training.
During the Non-Cancelled Marathon, I questioned whether I wanted to run a marathon again so soon. I thought maybe of doing mile training instead.
After the Non-Cancelled Marathon, I shifted back to about 50/50 on whether I wanted to do the marathon or the mile training.

At this moment in time, I'm leaning towards the Madison Marathon in November. If I end up doing Princess 2022, then realistically it wouldn't be until Fall 2022 before I would do another marathon. I wasn't sure whether that's what I wanted for myself. So I thought maybe a line up of:

Summer/Fall 2021 - Madison Marathon
Winter 2021-2022 - Princess HM
Spring 2022 - Mile Training
Summer/Fall 2022 - Marathon

With that being said, I won't sign up for a while and will just go through the motions for the time being. I've got the Hot2Trot HM in mid-June coming up next. But realistically, there isn't enough time to get in good recovery, then training, for this race. So it's just kind of something I'll go out and do for fun. With that in mind, I took a deep look at myself and decided that my legs just aren't healthy enough after this 10 day break from running/training. I'm like 90% confident that I've got another fibula stress fracture on the back of my left leg. I had one in January 2018 after Dopey 2018 on my right leg. I went back and read through this journal describing what it felt like before the races at the tail end of training, during the races (none), and after a 10 day running hiatus (it came back). And honestly many of the things I wrote then feel quite similar to now. Back then I tried to return to running, only to have pain nearly every day. I took another week off, then came back to still the same issues. It took 35 days off from running till a return led to zero issues. So I'm thinking I need a similar 5 week break to allow things to heal up. I think this will be good all around for my body. I think in the mean time, I'll do some extremely easy cycling 4 days per week, and reintroduce some 80 day obsession workouts (AAA, TBC, and Legs (but no jumping)).

The Non-Cancelled Marathon didn't go as expected. So I sat down with the data to try and decide what to do next. Where did I think things went wrong? Up through 4/18/21, the training looked good. But I definitely fell off an edge from a HRvPace perspective during the taper. Despite the easy run days on 4/21 and 4/22 being mirrored matches to two weeks prior, there were already signs that I was starting to fade physically. And this was again evident in my long run on 4/25 when my HRvPace relationship had jumped despite good weather to 7:42 pace at 143 bpm. Turn to the race itself and it was 7:57 pace at 144 bpm. I think the tweak at the HM turn played a role, but honestly I'm not sure how much of the quad pain was from the tweak and how much was from the training itself. And what exactly about the training needed to be different for the next go-around. So I went through and laid out some options for myself:


Option 1 - Do the same training from Fall/Winter 2020

Start with a focus on 4 days per week cycling, 4 days per week running, and 2-3 days per week of McMillan Core/Legs. The cycling would be hard to start, and the running would be easy. Then with 9-11 weeks to go until race day, change the focus to hard running and easy cycling. Every once in a while would be a hard cycle, but it would be mostly easy. The cycling would drop to 3 days per week and the running would increase to 5 days per week. The hard running days would be focused on HM Tempo bricks and sustained hill loops of about 3 minutes. Maxing out at 150 min long run and around 6-6.5 hrs running (47 miles) with 5 hrs of cycling.


Option 2 - Do similar to Fall/Winter 2020, but drop the cycling to extremely easy

The same as option 1, except during the second phase of training I would drop all the cycling down from easy to extremely easy.


Option 3 - Do similar to Fall/Winter 2019, but drop the cycling to extremely easy

So I don't want to do the same cycling volume as I was doing during the Full IM High Volume training plan in 2019. So it does beg the question whether I'd be in the same fitness place in November 2021 as I was in 2019 when I ran the 1:28:40 HM. But I would very likely make all of the cycling (4 days per week throughout) extremely easy during the entire training plan. The running plan would stay the same as in 2019. The total volume of running is less than the 2020 plan (peaks at 5 hrs running vs 6-6.5 hrs running), but this plan went through multiple 150 min and 160 min LRs. This plan also had sometimes 3 hard running days per week in a 4 day plan. But the hardness of those days was debatable. Although during 2019 they were hard because I had a ton of hard cycling during that same time period.


Option 4 - Pftizinger Marathon Plan 55 mile peak/ 18 weeks

It was at this point I asked myself what the purpose of the cycling was originally. I went from 100% running to a mix of running and cycling because I had sustained multiple injuries when trying to run high volume. I had the undiagnosed stress fracture after Lakefront 2016 which resolved during the two week running break, the diagnosed fibula stress fracture after Dopey 2018, and the ankle tendonitis during Chicago 2018 training when I was doing a 70 mile peak Daniels Marathon plan. So after that, I added in cycling to reduce my running injuries. But during the time spent running and cycling, I've suffered a quad injury during Disney 2020 that left me unable to complete the race well, a hamstring injury during Daniels mile training (likely because of 3 days per week of speed training to be fair), an ankle injury during Winter 2020 (likely due to ankle hypomobility), something with my quad during the Non-Cancelled Marathon 2021, and potentially an undiagnosed fibula stress fracture in my left leg after Non-Cancelled Marathon training. So I'm not having a good track record thus far. It could easily be explained by overtraining. And maybe Options 1-3 would help mediate that. Drop the cycling from any specific type of training to simply spinning the wheels at a cadence around 85-90 rpm. So I decided to go back and look at all the training plans used for the previous 15 marathons, the PRs/race times leading into those races, the actual marathon result, and how close I came to the VDOT race equivalent performance to the other distance PR/race times.

View attachment 574612

So prior to doing Hansons, I trained using either a non-run/walk Galloway or FIRST without cross training. During those races, I was about 19-70 min off the predicted time. Then I started doing Hansons in Fall 2015. The first time I used Hansons, I did something I coined the Hansons Intermediate plan. I merged the Hansons Beginner with Hansons Advanced by taking the mileage from Beginner and mixing with the 5k and MT-10 sec hard workouts from Advanced. That first time out, I beat my VDOT prediction by 30 seconds. My Dopey marathon improved by 10 min vs the prior prediction performance after following Hansons Advanced. I followed Hansons Advanced again in May 2016 and was a mere 3 min off predicted. In October 2016 I did "Hansons but harder" and beat my prediction by 1:40, but suffered an undiagnosed stress fracture. I went back to Hansons Advanced during Dopey 2017, and without the HM present the day before was a mere 38 seconds off predicted time based on PRs, despite the 5k/10k being the two days prior. Then in Spring 2017 I did the Daniels 5k/10k plan and made a big jump in fitness. I followed that up with a modified Hansons Elite plan, and ran 7:43 slower than predicted. Lastly, I did a Hansons/Daniels mix for Dopey 2018 and despite having 3 races prior was only off my predicted fitness by 12 min. But I had a stress fracture after that race. Once I started running less and doing additional cycling, my marathon times have been 18 min, 30 min, and 18 min slower than predicted. That's despite going from spending 7-9 hrs running to 12-20 hrs of total training. Was the time investment still worth it, if I still got injured during the training and had lesser final results? Yes, the 2019 HM of 1:28:40 showed I can be in a good place fitness wise from the training, but I hadn't yet shown the payoff for the marathon itself. Whereas, training with the Hansons plans led me to 30s better, 3 min worse, 100s better, 38s worse, and 7:43 worse. All in all times very close to what I had run in lesser distances. And during each of those races I was injured once with an undiagnosed SF.

So I went back to the running books from Daniels, Pftiz, and Hansons and modeled the plans. I haven't done a Pftiz plan yet. So I read the book cover to cover in an afternoon. He's clearly a Daniels disciple and not that different from either Daniels or Hansons. But he has his own unique twist to the training. I went with the Pftiz 55/18 week plan which is his lower of the two in the book. It's mostly a 5 day a week plan. He flips the specificity compared to Hansons. So his plan starts with Threshold paced runs and then toward the end does 5k paced runs. The Threshold runs are way more aggressive than the Daniels versions. Where Daniels does Threshold intervals, no more than 20 min per interval, a run:rest ratio of 5min:1min, and no more than 60 min total. Pftiz does no rest Threshold runs maxing at 7 miles or 43 min. His Long runs are always progressive and cap at 20 miles (2:40 for me). He wants them broken into thirds with the first third at 20% slower than M Tempo, then 15% slower, then 10% slower. So for me that would be something like 8:24, 8:00, and 7:42. So all in all slower than what I had been doing my LRs at. He also mixes in three 10k races in the last 7 weeks of training in order to work on race preparedness. Lastly, he does fast finish long runs with M Tempo, but with a massive amount of M Tempo. It peaks at a 4 mile LR + 14 mile M Tempo. In total, the plan peaks at 7.5 hrs running and 55 miles. It has six runs of 140 min or more. I'm not too fond of what the training load calculations say the taper looks like though.


Option 5 - Hansons Advanced

Next I dusted off the Hansons book and wrote out the Hansons Advanced plan. Nothing was surprising to me as I've done this plan plenty of times prior. Three times, no injuries and good results. But I've never done the plan since my fitness jumped after Spring 2017. So I typed in the plan and looked at the numbers. The plan would peak at 8 hrs of running and 60 miles. The LR of 16 miles peaks at 128 min. Which is interesting because back in the day that was 150 min for me. The 10 mile M Tempo peak which used to be 120 min is now 97 min. Those speed days went from 90-100 min to 60-80 min. And the taper looks great per the training load data.


Option 6 - Hansons Intermediate

Lastly, I thought why not go back to my roots. Run the Hansons Intermediate plan I made in 2015 that got me a fantastic result. What would that look like now. There are some differences between the Advanced and Intermediate plan mostly revolving around an extra mile here or there on Wed/Fri/Sat. This plan would peak at 7.5 hrs and 55 miles. Never exceeding 128 min in a single run. With the LR consisting of 30% of the weekly mileage at its peak. When I finally finished writing the plan out, I said to myself, this looks easy. It looks too easy compared to what I've been doing recently and to what I've done in the past. When I did this plan in 2015, it was 8-9 hrs of running per week. And now it's 6.5-7.5 of running per week. But then I reiterated to myself that the plan looked too easy. And that's when I decided it was the right plan for the moment. I wanted to try and run a plan off my new fitness level that on paper looked too easy to me. Stop reaching for more and that ultimate level, and see what happens when I grab the plan off the lowest shelf instead of the highest shelf.

So after days of data crunching and soul searching, that's where I'm at right now. Mentally I want to try and do the Hansons Intermediate plan from 2015. No cycling during the plan. Do some 80DO strength workouts here and there. And then run the Madison M in November to see what happens. Obviously, if circumstances change, then I'll adapt. But that's where my mind is right now.

Well easy is all relative. 55 miles a week is a huge amount
 
Sorry to hear about the stress fracture. Silly question, but are you taking calcium supplements? Usually when I'm in the middle of training, I'll start a multi-vitamin and it makes me feel like I'm training better. It may just be placebo effect, but also my diet is notoriously atrocious. No fruits/veggies, all hamburgers and pizzas. I make sure my kids eat lots of veggies, etc but hide my own meals!

I was actually going to suggest the Pftiz plan to you as it seems to be all the rage in some running communities right now with good results. I didn't know too much about it except it required a lot of serious training, which I knew you could do.

The other thing I was thinking was possibly getting a running coach. A lot of coaches have their own coaches. Maybe it's too hard when you're the patient, KWIM? Clearly, you approach yourself as unbiased as possible by looking at data - but sometimes you also need to give yourself a break too. Maybe you just need fresh eyes.

Otherwise, with your injuries restarting with Hansons intermediate isn't a bad idea.
 


Well easy is all relative. 55 miles a week is a huge amount

Certainly all relative. That's why I like to include hours of training as well. So the Hansons Intermediate plan ends up being a peak of 7.5 hrs (55 miles at avg pace of 8:04 min/mile). With an 8:04 min/mile representing about 60 second slower than my estimated M Tempo of a 7:03 min/mile. But back in 2015 when I was slower than I am now, the peak was 9.25 hrs (55 miles at avg. pace of 10:05 min/mile). With an 10:05 min/mile representing about 90 seconds slower than estimated M Tempo of an 8:35 min/mile.

As far as average training per week, it's about 6.25 hours not including race week. It was 7.5 hrs in 2015. And Non-Cancelled was 3.25 hrs running and 4.75 hrs cycling for an average of 8 hrs per week over the same time frame.

So to me, all this equals what I would consider an easier training plan comparatively to what I've done in the last 6 years.

Sorry to hear about the stress fracture. Silly question, but are you taking calcium supplements? Usually when I'm in the middle of training, I'll start a multi-vitamin and it makes me feel like I'm training better. It may just be placebo effect, but also my diet is notoriously atrocious. No fruits/veggies, all hamburgers and pizzas. I make sure my kids eat lots of veggies, etc but hide my own meals!
The supplement suggestion is a good one. I’ve used these on the recommendation of triathlete friends with stress fractures. They worked very well.

https://twinlab.tlcchealth.com/product/tri-boron-plus/

Without going full blown crazy, I'd say my diet is pretty good.
-Breakfast is either eggs/oranges/oatmeal/cherries or eggs/sausage/tortilla/oranges.
-Lunch is chicken sandwich on whole wheat, carrots, and spinach salad.
-Dinner is Hello Fresh which is a variety of things.

I've been taking a multivitamin since 2012 and vitamin D supplementation in addition since Jan 2018.

Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 8.19.45 AM.png

The Tri-Boron definitely has more Calcium and Magnesium than does my Centrum Mens.

I don't specifically get any Boron from supplementation. But perusing the list of natural Boron sources shows that it's likely not lacking in my diet (Spinach, Peanut Butter, Apples, Milk, Carrot, Orange).

https://www.algaecal.com/algaecal-ingredients/boron/boron-sources/https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-HealthProfessional/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...ciency,deficient individuals in human studies.

How important Boron is to vitamin D uptake and BMD seems to be in question. We do a lot of research on vitamin D and I was surprised to see that my boss who has over 2000 papers published has zero mentions of Boron. But next time I see him in lab, I'll pick his brain on it.

I was actually going to suggest the Pftiz plan to you as it seems to be all the rage in some running communities right now with good results. I didn't know too much about it except it required a lot of serious training, which I knew you could do.

Yea, during my progression of decision making and when I decided to reinvestigate doing full time running, Pftiz is the first place I turned because I hadn't done it before.

The Pros were it was 5 days per week and was something different. It averages 6 hrs per week over the 17 weeks minus race week. So it's about 15 min per week less than Hansons Intermediate. I liked the idea of three 10ks to race prepare yourself and to check in on progress/goal setting. The progression style long runs and fast finish matched my style.

But those 6 hrs are spread over 5 days (1:12 average per running day) vs 6.25 hrs over 6 days (1:02 average per running day). So in a single bout of exercise the Hansons Intermediate plan does less. The Pfitz planned peaked at 20 miles (2:40) vs Hansons at 16 miles (2:08), and I've been questioning the difference between 135 min and 150 min for my body. The 20 miler was 38% of the weekly mileage whereas the 16 miler was 30%. The Pftiz taper is more aggressive and long compared to the Hansons Int. taper per training load data. I wasn't sure whether that would serve me better as the data is mixed there.

The other thing I was thinking was possibly getting a running coach. A lot of coaches have their own coaches. Maybe it's too hard when you're the patient, KWIM? Clearly, you approach yourself as unbiased as possible by looking at data - but sometimes you also need to give yourself a break too. Maybe you just need fresh eyes.

Yea, I considered it and searched out local coaches. I've found one that I would be interested in working with. She's a local Daniels inspired coach with a ton of accolades. But costs $360 minimally ($120/month minimum of 3 months). Between the puppy, treadmill ($2500), upcoming Disney trip in Feb (estimated $8000), G's playroom reno ($1500), and landscaping, Steph has tightened the budget. So cost wise it's just not the right time for us.
 
Have you considered a one- time coaching consult call? I've heard of folks doing this. I think it runs around $75- 100, which seems more doable. You clearly have the base to write your own plans, but sometimes another set of eyes is helpful.
 


Have you considered a one- time coaching consult call? I've heard of folks doing this. I think it runs around $75- 100, which seems more doable. You clearly have the base to write your own plans, but sometimes another set of eyes is helpful.

Yea, she offers that as well for $55 for 60 min. It's not a bad idea for an introduction and just to pick a coach's brain. We'll see if I can sell Steph on it.
 
As much as you go - DVC? It's a huge investment but it also can payoff in the long run.

We looked at it some years ago. I can't remember what my numbers came out to back then. But like you said, the break even point was in the long run and we weren't sure whether it was right for us. I haven't investigated it lately.
 
We looked at it some years ago. I can't remember what my numbers came out to back then. But like you said, the break even point was in the long run and we weren't sure whether it was right for us. I haven't investigated it lately.

We bought in 2015 - and it has been very good but of course it compelled us to go more. Resale prices have really shot up recently. I could go on and on but this is a running thread. Fastest miles of 2021 today out of nowhere
 
I haven't checked in here in a while. I didn't realize your history with stress fractures. Very sorry to hear it. As you know, I recently suffered through one myself (though in my femur). My doctor had me on crutches for 3 weeks (true torture) and a very slow build back into weight bearing exercise after that (definitely no biking or leg-based strength training during the 3 weeks on crutches). You may want to get off your feet entirely/as much as possible for as long as you can to really let that thing heal up. I'm no doctor, but based on what my doctor made me do I would worry that your stress fracture may never fully heal otherwise, and you may continue to run into problems.

My doctor also has me taking a combination Vitamin D/Calcium supplement 2x per day (in addition to my normal multivitamin). I have diagnosed low bone density though. Have you had your bone density tested?
 
I haven't checked in here in a while. I didn't realize your history with stress fractures. Very sorry to hear it. As you know, I recently suffered through one myself (though in my femur). My doctor had me on crutches for 3 weeks (true torture) and a very slow build back into weight bearing exercise after that (definitely no biking or leg-based strength training during the 3 weeks on crutches). You may want to get off your feet entirely/as much as possible for as long as you can to really let that thing heal up. I'm no doctor, but based on what my doctor made me do I would worry that your stress fracture may never fully heal otherwise, and you may continue to run into problems.

My doctor also has me taking a combination Vitamin D/Calcium supplement 2x per day (in addition to my normal multivitamin). I have diagnosed low bone density though. Have you had your bone density tested?

So if it truly is a fibula stress fracture, then it's like the one I had in 2018 but on the opposite leg.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/t...badger-comments-welcome.3475601/post-58811363
At that appointment my sports doc said no running, but that I could cycle. I didn't have access to an indoor bike at the start of the time off, but I did get a simple setup towards the end of the time off. So far things have been going well. I no longer feel it on a normal daily basis (and by feel it was just "noticeable" and didn't cause any gait distortion). I think it stopped hurting a few days after I wrote the 5/12 post, so maybe like 5/14 or so. But in the case of the 2018 stress fracture, it was gone in daily life, tried to return to running, and it was too soon still. So despite not feeling it right now, I'm going to continue waiting the full five weeks.

I had a DXA scan in March 2020.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/t...badger-comments-welcome.3475601/post-61627926
-My total BMD was 1.388 g/cm^3 with a T-score of 1.9 and Z-score of 1.6. If I'm interpreting this correctly, this means that only about 2.2% of people have more dense bones that I do when normalized to a 30 year old male. My BMD for different areas was 2.678 head, 0.892 arms, 1.588 legs, 1.151 trunk, 0.860 ribs, 1.349 spine, and 1.239 pelvis. In general she said I had denser bones than the average person.

The value is number of standard deviations from average. So a T-score of 1.9 means about only 2.2% of people have more dense bones than I do when normalized to a 30 yr old male.

577713
 
Those are nice T and Z scores for sure. Mine are both in negative territory. Since my doc had me entirely off my feet before the density test, I'm guessing he was just being more conservative. Maybe it was overkill, but it worked for me. And maybe it wasn't overkill--no matter how many weeks I kept trying to take off from running and limit myself to biking (I would go 3-4 weeks at a time this way (during which time I had NO pain)), the fracture did not heal until I spent my time on the crutches....

It certainly is troubling that you get repeated fractures. I doubt you need more calcium and maybe with your density your bones heal if you just stop running. But given your density, you definitely need to think long and hard about why it keeps happening. Maybe it's your training regimen but maybe it's something else like your form?
 
It certainly is troubling that you get repeated fractures. I doubt you need more calcium and maybe with your density your bones heal if you just stop running. But given your density, you definitely need to think long and hard about why it keeps happening. Maybe it's your training regimen but maybe it's something else like your form?

Yes, so far:

October 2016 - Unconfirmed stress fracture or bone abnormality in left tibia about halfway between knee/ankle and on the inside of leg. Had an X-ray which didn't show anything about 2 days after the onset. Did see cloudiness in area suggesting possibly healed previous injury. Two weeks later returned to running pain free. Had an MRI about a month after onset and it came back normal.

January 2018 - Confirmed stress fracture post Dopey 2018 in right fibula near knee. Doctor said it was unusual because of its placement and being on the fibula. Took 5 weeks off from running and no issues upon return.

May 2021 - Unconfirmed stress fracture in left fibula near knee. Essentially the same spot as January 2018 except the other leg.

So the 2016 one while unconfirmed is a more traditional stress fracture. The other two in 2018 and 2021 are unusual in there placement per my sports doc since the fibula doesn't bare much weight. So it could certainly have been something in my form that makes me more susceptible. It's an unknown really.

As for the training, the training leading into Dopey 2018 was aggressive. Only took 7 days off post Lakefront 2017, then a 13-week training plan that ramped from 32 miles to 69 miles. The results paid off, but I'm not surprised that I ended up injured afterwards.

The 2021 plan was far less aggressive and peaked at 35 miles on 4 days per week. If I'd point to anything it was the 3/28 long run. It was a day after a hard M Tempo brick, and the legs weren't feeling great. Despite that I kept with the program and did LR pace. I think in hindsight, my body would have preferred an easy day post the M Tempo brick. It was one of the changes I was going to make for a potential repeat heading into Madison 2021. To have an easy day instead of a LR day after a brick workout. So while the volume was lower and less days per week, I think that combo was detrimental despite it being a staple in the HIM TrainerRoad plan.
 
The 2021 plan was far less aggressive and peaked at 35 miles on 4 days per week. If I'd point to anything it was the 3/28 long run. It was a day after a hard M Tempo brick, and the legs weren't feeling great. Despite that I kept with the program and did LR pace. I think in hindsight, my body would have preferred an easy day post the M Tempo brick. It was one of the changes I was going to make for a potential repeat heading into Madison 2021. To have an easy day instead of a LR day after a brick workout. So while the volume was lower and less days per week, I think that combo was detrimental despite it being a staple in the HIM TrainerRoad plan.

This reminds me of the circumstances surrounding my stress fracture. I mean, the circumstances were quite different but the key similarity is that it sounds like you were running tired. When you run tired, your form suffers. When your form suffers, your injury risk increases...
 
This reminds me of the circumstances surrounding my stress fracture. I mean, the circumstances were quite different but the key similarity is that it sounds like you were running tired. When you run tired, your form suffers. When your form suffers, your injury risk increases...

It's true. It's one of the few days I could feel the workout from the day prior in this last training plan. Whereas in comparison, during the Disney 2020 training I was very tired for many of my running workouts and suffered no bone injuries. I did have a quad injury during the race though.

Training is typically about balancing enough with too much.

-During my early days (2012-2015) I suffered zero injuries, but my performance was not what I wanted. So I trained too little, stayed healthy, and my performances in the marathon were less than what my fitness indicated.
-For about a year (2015-2016), I maintained a higher volume, stayed healthy, and had good relative performances.
-Then in 2016-2018, the pendulum likely swung too far the other direction. I wanted more in my performance and felt like to hit those even higher marks I set for myself I needed more/harder training. Too much training, didn't stay healthy, but still had relatively good performances.
-Then I switched to run+cycle+strength in 2018-2021. I did way way more training volume based on time, still suffered a variety of injuries, and had a split of good/bad performances relatively speaking (Nov HM was good, two marathons were less than ideal).

So when I mapped out my Madison 2021 plan on May 12th, I aimed towards that sweet spot of 2015-2016 training (Hansons Intermediate). It's less volume than I've done before, but was a time when I suffered no injuries. So I wanted to see what happens when I combine my current fitness level post Daniels Spring 2017 with the Hansons Intermediate plan that left me injury free.
 
Good news. Passed the one leg jump test this morning. Something I failed prior to and the week after the Non-Cancelled Marathon. I'm taking that as a good sign with another 10 days off to go.
Great news! I'm sure the time off is difficult for you. Good luck making it through the next 10 days.
 
Recap of the last 5 weeks off from running

So there isn't a ton to recap over the last five weeks. I stopped running to allow my body to heal. I cycled four days per week for about an hour each day at the lowest available intensity on TrainerRoad. I also did 80DO 2-3 times per week focusing on AAA (Arms, Abs, and Behind) and TBC (Total Body Core). I did Leg day once and decided it wasn't something I wanted to do during a resting phase. The 80DO workouts were harder than I remember them being. But I also know I was easily lifting heavier weights this time around than I had in the past.

I decided yesterday that I felt good enough to run. So was the difference between Sunday and Tuesday really that big? I did a simple 30 min run.

Conditions - ☀️ Clear, Wind 13mph to 21mph
Start: Temp+Dew = 78°F + 65°F; FL - 79°F
End: Temp+Dew = 80°F + 65°F; FL - 79°F

It was pretty hot. I looked back at 2020 stats and a T+D of 145 is about average (143) for all my runs from June through August. So it's hot, but I better get used to it. The warm up felt good, and the beginning of the run felt glorious. No pain anywhere and the legs felt fresh. I kept the effort super easy and the breathing was barely noticeable. Somewhere around 1/2 through the run my left ankle was like "hey remember me" and I was like, "uhh yea, no". And my right hamstring was a little tight still. But I've got 5 weeks of easy running ahead (other than Hot2Trot HM) to allow everything to heal up prior to Hansons Intermediate training starting. As for the run, I came away feeling good. In all it was 31 min, 3.26 miles, 9:28 min/mile with a HR of 149. The HR was shockingly high. So I'll need to see some other runs in the next few weeks to see what's going on there. The graph looks realistic, but towards the end there I was running 5k pace apparently. Not buying it. Combination of five weeks off and the first super hot run is more likely the explanation. Otherwise my fitness has fallen by about 2.5 min/mile since May. I'm not worried either way. It's the me in November that matters more, not so much the me today.

I did step on the scale (new one, so not sure how comparable the old one was that was purchased in April 2012), and I was 189.4 pounds. Which if accurate would be my heaviest in nearly a decade.

Screen Shot 2021-06-07 at 10.54.01 AM.png

I loosely focused on my nutrition during the downtime, but knew that it's never easy for me to lose weight without also running some volume. Cycling just doesn't seem to have the same effect for me. As evidenced by me being sub-170 since I started Hansons training in the Fall 2015, and then not really being sub-170 ever again after I stopped running as much and added in cycling/strength. So I'm still trying to find that right balance, but I don't think 189 is where I want to be. So I'm refocusing attention on nutrition with the goal to get back down in the 165-175 area by November. Although I'd like to keep some muscle tone as well.

Looking forward, like I said, I've got 5 weeks of easy running to return to form after taking 5 weeks off. Then an eye on the November Madison Marathon using the Hansons Intermediate training plan. Volume wise it looks like this compared to what I've done in the past:

580491

It looks like my runtastic data is unaccessible for the time being. So nothing prior to my Garmin watch in December 2014.

Alright, that's all I can think of. Time to get back to it!
 

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