To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[pixarmom]

WHY?

I sit here now roughly 48 hours after completing the 2017 Milwaukee Lakefront Marathon and wonder "why?" Why did everything seemingly go so well in training and then on race day things just didn't feel right? What was the disconnect between the two and is there something I can learn to use going forward? After every race it's important to be reflective on the experience of the training and the race to glean new information that might be useful going forward. So, why?

Was the training an issue?

At first blush, no. I had one of my highest interval completion rates at 89%. I hit 8/14 marathon tempo workouts perfectly and 12/14 with 80% or greater success. The average pace was a 7:02 min/mile and the last 8 were a 6:59 min/mile average. The long runs were good. The hybrids were good. The faster speed runs were good. I did run the easier runs quite a bit easier than scheduled. But I was aiming to keep my HR at less than 67% HRR per Daniels recommendation (and that's what felt right in training).

If the training were the problem, then the expected result should have been a massive fade at the end of the run. Not sufficient training means I could hold the pace in the beginning but not towards the end. But in reality, I couldn't even hold pace at the beginning. In addition, previous training cycles defined as worse (65% hit rate and 1/7 weeks above 70% hit) generated better results.

There was an indicator though. The last Marathon Tempo workout:

View attachment 274417

I had originally brushed this off as just a single bad run. This tends to happen for me during the taper. So no big deal. I said it had something to do with the sudden rise in T+D over the last couple of weeks. Prior to this run the last T+D over 120 was 8/17/17. But this may have been a warning sign something was wrong.

Was the weather an issue?

At first blush, no. The T+D was 95 in Grafton, minimal wind, and minimal cloud cover. By the end of the race, there was a stiffer wind (13-25 mph) and a T+D of 113. The sun was mostly out at the end as well. But a T+D of 95-113 is certainly reasonable for a marathon. At most, maybe a 0.5% pace adjustment. The wind might add a little extra adjustment as well.

But it's important to look beyond just the raw weather data. If the course is always the same from year to year, then the relative results should be similar as well. I finished in the top 4.6% overall (106/2292). Which means if I look at previous year's 4.6% finisher we can glean an insight whether the weather was indeed worse this year than average. This is based on the idea that the population that runs the Lakefront Marathon is always the same. So a 4.6% finisher one year should be relatively equal to a 4.6% finisher another year. If there is a difference, then one year was probably different than the other by definition of "difficulty".

View attachment 274418

I was 4.6% finisher in 2017. So, as you can see the 4.6% finisher is usually around 3:09-3:12. The two outliers are the last two years (2016 and 2017). 2016 was raining (but I still hit near training pace). 2015 was near perfect conditions (cloudy, tailwind, T+D of 80-90).

So while at first blush the weather seemed fine, it is indeed possible it added a little level of difficulty that went undetected. So, it's possible this would account for about a 3-4 minute (2.2%) difference in time. So not everything, but surprisingly a bit more than expected.

If we are to assume it was a 2.2% increase from "normal" conditions, then my projected time at Mile 17 (3:07:07) would have really been a projection of 3:03:05. I chose Mile 17 because this was before I removed the blind and still was giving Marathon Tempo effort. Given the likely slow down yet to occur after Mile 17, this moves from "at first blush, no" to "probable". A 3:03:05 would have been a likely finishing time.

The question is - would the weather explain the immediate inability to hit pace either unblinded or blinded? Or would it be expected to see a general slow down trend?

Was it something new I tried this training cycle (Beet-It or RunGum)?

Unlikely as both were not being consumed during the last M Tempo run.

I felt as if the Beet-It didn't provide any extra benefits at the end of the day. It sure didn't make me feel any different. I didn't have any noticeable decrease in effort, HR, or relationship between them.

However, I did feel the RunGum was helpful. The caffeine was noticeable and I think it will be something I add to race day going forward. I will likely chew some prior to the race and then again towards the end.

Was it my nutritional diet?

In March 2017, I made another change to my diet. I tried to get away from the sugar and added in a spinach/quinoa salad at lunch instead. During the Lakefront training, I also added in a snack of almonds and 1/2 PB sandwich. But was I eating enough to support the training?

View attachment 274441

3156 total calories: 421g carbs (52%), 101g fat (29%) and 168g protein (21%).

-On days with 90+ min run I'd take an E-Gel (150 calories) and runs at 120-150 min I'd take two (300 calories).
-For weekend, long runs I'd usually have a bagel, PB, honey and banana. But I usually didn't eat the "snack". Which would be a net change of +70 calories, +52g carbs, -15g fat, +1g protein.

View attachment 274440

So, what was my normal caloric burn like?

Well MyFitnessPal estimates my BMR to be 1,722 and my Garmin estimates 2,102. So a bit of a difference.

What about normal active daily life?

View attachment 274451

So "meals consumed" is calories in. Active burn is the exercise and life calories. And either MyFitness Pal or Garmin 235 provides the BMR calculation.

The truth of the matter is this: My weight prior to Lakefront 2016 was 156. My weight leading into the last few weeks of Lakefront 2017 training was 167. When I saw this on the scale, I started to panic a bit. I "felt" a little heavier, but I certainly didn't feel that much larger. So my goal was to get back down to 163-164 pounds by race day. I did this subconsciously and consciously by becoming really busy at work and not being able to eat the snack like I had consistently for the weeks prior (thus 3156 calories became 2683 calories during the taper). In the matter of 10-12 days my weight dropped back down into the 164 range. The question is - when did I make this change? I can't say for sure. I'd venture to guess by at least 9/21 it started, but it very well could have been right before that as well. Dependent on whether you believe the MyFitnessPal BMR or Garmin BMR dictates whether I was running a calorie deficit. And possibly that calorie deficit led to a feeling of no energy and thus flat on race day. Tough to say one way or the other.

Maybe the possible calorie deficit could also explain why it felt it took so much longer to recover from certain workouts. Might explain why I felt the need to go so much slower on easy days. Might explain why I actually gained weight (160 to 167) during this training cycle because I wasn't eating enough. But why would all of these things just suddenly crest to be an issue about 10 days out from the race?

So it begs the question - why?

When I first sat down to write this and before I had researched anything, I thought the answer was going to be clearly the nutrition was the only player. I sabotaged my own race experience at the last moment because of a slight weight gain and a desire to lose some extra pounds before the race. I tried to remind myself that the number on the scale matters less (if high) then does my final race time to me. I want to feel happy and fast. Possibly, my unhealthy relationship with food from my heavier days allowed the pendulum to swing too harshly in the opposite direction to eat too little.

But the weather and comparison of previous finishers in the same area leads me to believe that it might have in fact played a role as well. I certainly felt thirsty quite quickly in this race (having a noticeable deficit in water as soon as mile 4) and my salted face might have been another sign of inappropriate balance in my body. So, a matter of a 2.2% difference in finishing time may have been because of the weather even though it seemed like reasonable conditions.

Regardless, of why... this race will stick with me for a while. It's not that I didn't do well because I certainly did (finishing in the top 4.6% with a very respectable 3:14). But it's just that everything went so well leading right up until the race. As I tell others, no single race defines you. You remember it. You learn from it. You move on from it. This is me moving on from it realizing some factors may have been within my control and others may not have been. But at the end of the day, I put together a very solid race even without my best stuff. So, the next question is - what's next?

First, I love this part: "I want to feel happy and fast." But as you mentioned, some factors are within our control and others are not. Easy to say and hard to truly internalize. My "I'm busy training for half marathons and triathlons" approach didn't work out for me - I'm guessing the lack of dedicated 15, 20 and 21-mile training runs are at least partially to blame. And not sure what this is about, but I was also extremely thirsty at the start, despite all my hydration efforts and indications that I had hydrated successfully. I was similarly covered in salt at the end of this race - really crazy amounts of salt. Interesting that happened to both of us.

I'll look forward to hearing more about what's next, but I'll start by suggesting the Last Call Half! I'm really excited about our upcoming Milwaukee Running Festival/Whatever It's Called Now races, but haven't decided how to approach my half then or in December (because I really am running Last Call!) And I only have 3 months until Goofy, so I need a plan. I would ask for help, but don't know how you feel about helping a no-data kind of runner. I've abandoned the Garmin and feeling happy and fast will always be my primary goal. I'd still like to break 4:00 for the marathon someday and 1:50 for the half, but happy comes first. Let me know your thoughts - here or PM!

 

[pixarmom]

Will be happy to see goal #20 on 10/15/17 @roxymama

 

[rteetz]

That is quite the list of goals! I hope you can complete as many of them as possible!

 

[roxymama]

#88 speaks to me.

And I'll do my best to help you cross #20 off your list. Also the 1000 training plans...I'm sure I can help you make a dent in that goal.

 

[GollyGadget]

16. Write a training plan that causes someone to Boston Qualify
17. Pace someone I know to their first Boston Qualifying standard
18. Pace someone I know to a PR at the marathon distance

I'm willing to help you achieve these. At minimum 16.

P.S. Such a big commitment before 7a is giving me internal turmoil.

 

[DopeyBadger]

And not sure what this is about, but I was also extremely thirsty at the start, despite all my hydration efforts and indications that I had hydrated successfully. I was similarly covered in salt at the end of this race - really crazy amounts of salt. Interesting that happened to both of us.

I've got to believe the solar radiation on that morning was way higher than expected. It might help explain why we both had this happen to us.

I'll look forward to hearing more about what's next, but I'll start by suggesting the Last Call Half!

Figured you would suggest it. I had it penciled in, but I'm also wary of it taking away from Dopey training. Haven't made a decision yet. Funny enough I was in the process of writing my Dopey training plan post and realized I had miscounted the number of weeks. So you're saying Dopey isn't in late January...

I would ask for help, but don't know how you feel about helping a no-data kind of runner. I've abandoned the Garmin and feeling happy and fast will always be my primary goal. I'd still like to break 4:00 for the marathon someday and 1:50 for the half, but happy comes first. Let me know your thoughts - here or PM!

So do you use no GPS tracker of any kind? I think we could still write a plan based on effort and time if that's what you desired instead. Obviously, pace is much more specific and likely to yield optimal results, but effort can be a reasonable substitute.

Will be happy to see goal #20 on 10/15/17 @roxymama

That is quite the list of goals! I hope you can complete as many of them as possible!

Thanks!

#88 speaks to me.

That's a good sign. I figured just a running store would struggle financially (or at least be tough). But a running store that serves coffee and is a place to come to learn, maybe that would have a chance. Doubt Starbucks would want to partner with me though. Not that I like Starbucks or drink coffee, but the masses sure do.

And I'll do my best to help you cross #20 off your list.

Also the 1000 training plans...I'm sure I can help you make a dent in that goal.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I'm willing to help you achieve these. At minimum 16.

Let's do it! I KNOW you can do it. It's only a matter of WHEN you want to attempt it.

P.S. Such a big commitment before 7a is giving me internal turmoil.

It won't happen tomorrow, but...

• People with written goals are 50% more likely to achieve than people without written goals
• Sharing your goals with a close 'confide' is proven to increase the chances of you achieving your goal
• Goals 'held' in the mind are more likely to be jumbled up with the other 1500 thoughts per minute that the average human being experiences

 

[Anisum]

I was originally scrolling through and read 'What's Next?' and thought Milwaukee and then Dopey, duh. I really like your goals though. I like that they cover everything from helping others improve to running around the world to finishing 1st. #4 is my favorite though. You started this journey so you could be there for Gigi and the idea of continuing it with her is so sweet.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I was originally scrolling through and read 'What's Next?' and thought Milwaukee and then Dopey, duh.

I really like your goals though. I like that they cover everything from helping others improve to running around the world to finishing 1st.

Thanks! A lot of variety and different types of goals. Some accomplishable in less than two weeks and others may take a lifetime.

#4 is my favorite though. You started this journey so you could be there for Gigi and the idea of continuing it with her is so sweet.

Funny story. When the medals for marathon weekend came out, I showed G the Kid's medal. She says to me,

G - "Daddy, I'm going to win."
Me - "Oh really?"
G - "Are you running too?"
Me - "I sure am!"
G - "I'm going to beat you too"
Me - "You think you're faster than me."
G - "Yes, watch me."

And then G proceeded to sprint down the hallway.

She asked me if she could run with me this past Sunday at the marathon. I told her not this time, but maybe another time. She said she wants to come running with me outside some time.

 

[FredtheDuck]

Funny story. When the medals for marathon weekend came out, I showed G the Kid's medal. She says to me,

G - "Daddy, I'm going to win."
Me - "Oh really?"
G - "Are you running too?"
Me - "I sure am!"
G - "I'm going to beat you too"
Me - "You think you're faster than me."
G - "Yes, watch me."

And then G proceeded to sprint down the hallway.

She asked me if she could run with me this past Sunday at the marathon. I told her not this time, but maybe another time. She said she wants to come running with me outside some time.

This is the dream, right? I'm hoping to have a similar experience with my daughter, someday.

This goals are so interesting and varied... I'm excited to see how you plot your path to what will surely be many successes.

 

[DopeyBadger]

This is the dream, right? I'm hoping to have a similar experience with my daughter, someday.

I'll take it for sure.

This goals are so interesting and varied... I'm excited to see how you plot your path to what will surely be many successes.

Thanks! Keeps it fresh to have lots of different angles to approach.

 

[roxymama]

This is the dream, right? I'm hoping to have a similar experience with my daughter, someday.

Apparently roxykiddo was racing hubby up and down the sidewalk at our local running store when he was trying to decide between another pair of Brooks Beasts and the Saucony Redeemer (he went Saucony btw)
But she was really adamant about beating him every time.
I think sidewalk or hallway distance is about the perfect race length for her right now!

 

[DopeyBadger]

2018 Walt Disney World Dopey Challenge - Training Plan

Well the 2017 Milwaukee Lakefront Marathon is now officially behind me. And with the end of one chapter brings the beginning of the next. So what's next? Why the 2018 Walt Disney World Dopey Challenge of course. This will mark my 5th consecutive attempt at the Dopey Challenge. 4 days, 4 races, 4 theme parks, and potentially the end of the Dopey Challenge for me (for now?).

2014 Dopey Challenge
5k – 23:36
10k – 51:45
HM – 2:11:56
M – 4:35:07
Goofy - 6:47:03
Dopey – 8:02:24
Beat the bib – 914th overall based on Dopey cumulative vs Bib # 1031

2015 Dopey Challenge
5k – 23:52 – Garmin Link
10k – 49:49 – Garmin Link
HM – 1:59:04 – Garmin Link
M – 4:27:23 – Garmin Link
Goofy - 6:26:27
Dopey – 7:40:08
Beat the bib – 672nd overall based on Dopey cumulative vs Bib # 1827

2016 Dopey Challenge
5k – 21:49 - Garmin Link
10k – 44:57 - Garmin Link
HM – 1:43:09 - Garmin Link
M – 3:55:35 - Garmin Link
Goofy - 5:38:44
Dopey – 6:45:30
Beat the bib – 160th overall based on Dopey cumulative vs Bib # 497

2017 Dopey Challenge
5k – 21:02 - Strava Link
10k – 43:25 - Strava Link
HM – CANCELLED
Marathon – 3:20:52 - Strava Link
Goofy - XXX
Dopey – XXX
Beat the bib – 43rd overall based on Dopey cumulative vs Bib # 211
*Unofficial HM PR during the Marathon of 1:36:27

Races in Red were PRs at the time.

Training Paces

As always, the training paces are the most important part of a training plan. It is my philosophy that the best training paces are physiological relevant ones. Those paces are based on current fitness and not on goals. So what's my current fitness?

After the Milwaukee Lakefront Marathon, it becomes a question of - is my current fitness a 3:14 marathon?



So a 3:14 marathon is equivalent to a 20:13 5k, 42 10k, and 1:33 HM. Well, I hit a 1:33 HM in the first half of Lakefront. And then continued to run another 13.1 miles in 1:41. In addition, I ran the 19:30 in spring. So, I think it's pretty convincing that a 3:14 is not my current fitness.

Given how the last training cycle went, I still feel relatively confident that while the race didn't yield the results the training was appropriate.





So, I'm going to stick with those paces.

Training Plan

There are 14 weeks from this week until the Dopey Challenge. Normally, I take two weeks off after an "A" race marathon. But I've got pretty big fish to fry in two weeks, so I've reduced that recovery time off from 2 weeks down to 1 week.

As always, you can see the dates of the week, days of the week, description (actual workout), easy/hard timing, easy/hard split on a weekly basis, total mileage and duration, and in red% is the longest run relative to weekly mileage (goal to stay under 30% but prefer 25%). Green runs are the only ones with nutrition (because longer than 90 min).



The Milwaukee Marathon 10k with @roxymama! I'm excited for this race because it'll be my first time pacing someone in a race of a 10k or longer! And we're going to be doing some goal crushing! Don't read into that time @roxymama as it's just a clever place holder for the real plan.

The thing you can notice is that the first two weeks are exclusively easy.



The plan will actually start with 11 weeks to go. I've decided to go with some HM Tempo intervals, sustained M Tempo runs, Daniels Lactate Threshold runs, Daniels Mile paced runs, and long runs. This plan is meant to balance endurance and speed since the Dopey Challenge requires both. So the Tuesday workout will maintain the 5k/10k abilities and every other run is geared towards the HM/M. The biggest change I've made from the last training cycle is to include longer Saturday easy runs again. This is just a move to increase the level of endurance in this plan. The cap for these runs is still 90 minute runs.



The plan plan now includes CV pacing, sustained HM Tempo runs, more Daniels T/R, more sustained M Tempo runs, a 10 mile Progression (my current nemesis), and a Long Run/Tempo Hybrid. As I learned last year, sustained HM Tempo work went really well for the last Dopey Challenge. So I decided to include a couple touches of sustained runs in this plan. In addition, you can see the Saturday easy increases to the max 90 minute run.



The plan wraps up with a peak of 69 miles and 9:05 of running. Heat Acclimation training will start on 12/23/17. This will give me 10 runs for heat acclimation and 16 total days (near optimal timeframe). Fingers crossed this works again so I can be best prepared for the rapid change in temperature between WI and Disney. But as we all know Disney Marathon Weekend's weather is WILDLY unpredictable. Best to be prepared for the heat, then be surprised by it.



The interesting twist of the second to last week of training is because this is the Dopey. The last hard workout will be on Wednesday instead of Thursday. This helps ensure enough time for taper and recovery. We're traveling on Tuesday (1/2) but I can do the run prior to leaving for the airport. Wednesday is currently marked as "off", but that'll just be dependent on the schedule.

Goals

Back in February 2017, right after registration occurred for Marathon Weekend, I posed the question "What are your goals?" My response was the following:

1) Sextuple PR Challenge. In my 4 previous Dopey runs (3 as non-first attempts), I have yet to accomplish the Sextuple PR Challenge. Since this may be the last try, I'm giving it everything I got. I'm looking for a lifetime PR at 5k, 10k, HM, M, Goofy, and Dopey all as non-first time attempts at these distances.
2) 5k - Sub 19 minutes
3) 10k - Sub 40 minutes
4) HM - Sub 1:30
5) M - Sub 3:00
6) Dopey - Sub 5:30
7) Finish in the Top 10 of the Dopey Challenge when evaluated by cumulative time
8) Successfully meet as many DIS'ers pre/post/during races as possible
9) Coach as many runners through the Marathon Weekend races as that'll honor me with that opportunity
10) Cheer my mom though her first Dopey Challenge at age 61
11) Most importantly - Beat the Rocket Scientist

Not much has changed since then:

1) Sextuple PR Challenge. In my 4 previous Dopey runs (3 as non-first attempts), I have yet to accomplish the Sextuple PR Challenge. Since this may be the last try, I'm giving it everything I got. I'm looking for a lifetime PR at 5k, 10k, HM, M, Goofy, and Dopey all as non-first time attempts at these distances.
2) 5k - Sub 19 minutes
3) 10k - Sub 40 minutes
4) HM - Sub 1:30
5) M - Sub 3:14
6) Dopey - Sub 5:45
7) Finish in the Top 25 of the Dopey Challenge when evaluated by cumulative time
8) Finish in the Top 3 of the Dopey Challenge when evaluated by cumulative time for the Male 30-34 age division
9) Successfully meet as many DIS'ers pre/post/during races as possible
10) Coach as many runners through the Marathon Weekend races as that'll honor me with that opportunity
11) Cheer my mom though her first Dopey Challenge at age 61
12) Beat the bib # (whatever that may be this year)
13) Most importantly - Beat the Rocket Scientist

The goals are reasonable because the past history of Dopey Challenge suggests the following:

-My 5k time is usually pretty close to predicted based on training paces (which would be 19:05).
-My 10k time is usually pretty close to predicted based on training paces (which would be 39:45).
-My HM time is usually pretty close to predicted based on training paces (which would be 1:27:31).
-My M time is usually 8-10% slower than predicted based on training paces (which would be 3:18:53).

This means a 5k, 10k, and HM PR are possible. And a Marathon PR beating Lakefront may be probable, but a stretch. This gives me a legitimate chance at the elusive Sextuple PR Challenge for possibly my last Dopey (in the near future). I know know know that to hit that 5k/10k time I need to toe the starting line. I've got to balance the DIS meet, WU, and toeing the line to perfection to ensure I meet all my goals.

 

[FredtheDuck]

A) Now I really want to hear more about this rocket scientist goal.
B) I'm glad you're keeping your current fitness estimate where it is. I feel like that's appropriate based on the full cycle (rather than just reactionary based on the race).
C) I love that you have a color code for home games.
D) GO GET IT, BILLY!

 

[DopeyBadger]

A) Now I really want to hear more about this rocket scientist goal.

LOL, blame @Z-Knight! Back in February he stated his goal was "Beat the Badger!". I just made sure to reciprocate it.

B) I'm glad you're keeping your current fitness estimate where it is. I feel like that's appropriate based on the full cycle (rather than just reactionary based on the race).

Agreed. I considered moving it just a touch slower, but honestly the training went very well. It led me to believe that was the right place for me.

C) I love that you have a color code for home games.

It's a must since Steph works those weekends at the UW Bookstore (game day clothes). I had to ensure those were on the low side for time spent training since she leaves early in the morning.

D) GO GET IT, BILLY!

 

[Anisum]

Wow only 14 weeks from Dopey!! It's coming up so fast!

I love that you have the Milwaukee 10k with @roxymama as GOAL CRUSHING!!! That is very exciting.

 

[Z-Knight]

LOL, blame @Z-Knight! Back in February he stated his goal was "Beat the Badger!". I just made sure to reciprocate it.

Looks like I'll need to strap on some retro-rockets to actually beat the badger or go all "Tanya Harding".....haven't decided yet.

 

[pixarmom]

Love the Gigi story, the Dopey goals and the plan analysis! So 14 weeks to Marathon Weekend . . . in response to your earlier question, no GPS. I know the distances because I had them all mapped out when I used to wear the Garmin. I tend to do longer runs (10+) on the treadmill, so I can't entirely avoid data, but I run far slower on the treadmill because I'm super cautious about falling (which I've done outside.) My goal for Goofy is to run happy, and then I'll work on the PRs at local races. I need to recover from last weekend, run the half marathon on Oct 15 and then run the Last Call half. I really really want to run some 5Ks for time, but I won't if that's a bad idea - mateojr and I have some fun runs on the calendar together after the cross country season ends later this month. Let me know if you're willing to sketch out a basic plan (pace based on effort, 5-6 runs per week, etc.)

 

[croach]

Congratulations on your marathon PR!

 

[BikeFan]

Funny story. When the medals for marathon weekend came out, I showed G the Kid's medal. She says to me,

G - "Daddy, I'm going to win."
Me - "Oh really?"
G - "Are you running too?"
Me - "I sure am!"
G - "I'm going to beat you too"
Me - "You think you're faster than me."
G - "Yes, watch me."

And then G proceeded to sprint down the hallway.

She asked me if she could run with me this past Sunday at the marathon. I told her not this time, but maybe another time. She said she wants to come running with me outside some time.

This is the dream, right? I'm hoping to have a similar experience with my daughter, someday.

Running with my kids has been a great experience. My son and I have run a bunch of races together, but generally at our own paces, so we're only 'together' at the start before he rockets off with the leaders. He's running his first full at WDW in January though, and he just wants to run it at easy pace with me, and likely my brother as well. I'm definitely going to enjoy running a full alongside him.