To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)
- Thread starter DopeyBadger
- Start date
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
Thanks! Loved that movie! I'm excited to watch the non-connected sequel.
roxymama
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2015
How have I not heard of this. I love documentaries and this is about both running and Chicago? Is it available on Netflix? If not, where did you watch it (sorry if you already mentioned.)
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
It was a Netflix disc. Great movie! Looks like you can rent it on youtube or amazon for $2.99 as well.
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
37 Days to Go (CRASH AND BURN!!!)
Hard to believe we're only 37 days out now. Really hoping the weather finally breaks and becomes consistently cooler. Let's see how the week went.
Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)
8/17/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
8/18/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:06 min/mile + 10 miles @ 7:33 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:50 min/mile (3/10)
8/19/16 - F - 10 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (7/10)
8/20/16 - Sat - 11 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (7/11) + MISSED MBW
8/21/16 - Sun - 12 miles @ 8:13 min/mile (6/12)
8/22/16 - M - 9 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (7/9)
8/23/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:14 min/mile + 3 x 2 mile @ 7:23 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:20 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:41 min/mile (3/3)
Total mileage = 65 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 33/55 (60%)
Oh Thursday.... Thursday, Thursday, Thursday... Like I said a few weeks back Thursday is starting to become a trend for the most miserable weather day of the week. I severely underestimated the weather on Thursday. I briefly already posted about this run, but suffice to say it was a major crash and burn. The T+D was 159, the warm-up was too fast, the first interval was too fast, mid-challenge race by the girl with streamers, and a cold (maybe allergies, never had them before) that just won't go away. So after 5 miles of pushing really hard to maintain pace, I decided it was best to back off and finish the distance at a much easier pace. But it's obvious things weren't going well because even the easy pace was slowly dropping (partially because of lost motivation). Rather than push through a bad workout, it was better just to let it be and move on. It's always nice to remind yourself, "you are not as good as your best workout, and you are not as bad as your worst." These days happen and typically proceed and follow some good days. BTW, I lost 4 pounds from prior to running to after running and that included consuming 50 oz of water and 16 oz of chocolate milk (that's 4.125 pounds of liquid). And I still lost 4 pounds?!?! It must have been a hot one!
Friday came and I really underestimated the temperature again. I looked a little before I left and everything seemed fine, but the T+D of 152 was intense. It was cloudy, but I was completely soaked by the time I got home. That notwithstanding the run went well from a pace perspective.
Saturday I had my sister's baby shower which was about 1.5 hours away at her house. So the plan was to run in the morning. All week it had been predicting thunderstorms for Saturday morning so I wasn't sure what to expect. My plan was to wake up at 4:30am and either run at 5:00-6:30am, or run at 6:30-8:00am. Either way I was hoping one of these time blocks would avoid the thunderstorms. Yea, nope. Got up and it was predicted to thunderstorm from 5:45-7:00. This wouldn't leave me enough time to get ready and arrive on time for the baby shower so the run was moved to the evening. The baby shower was planned for 1-4pm so I was thinking maybe I'd get back around 5:30 for a not so late run. The baby shower was fun and went well. Gigi was crazy, as usual. We didn't end up leaving until 5:30 because we helped clean up, you know pregnant lady and all. So we didn't get home till 7:00pm and I was exhausted from the baby shower and driving all day. My wife looked at me and said, "You know maybe don't run tonight. You don't have to." And I said "yep, that's true, I don't have to". And then I got my stuff on and headed out the door. I was tired, but wasn't willing to have two days this week's cycle with a missed effort. Thankfully the weather was actually nice for a change. Run went well. Got home, ate dinner and started watching replays of all the track events from the evening. Was in the end of the men's 5K, coming around the home stretch, who's going to win?!?!? And then the feed cutoff at 10pm.... I was like NOOOOO! Who won?!?! I relegated myself to reading the recaps... Ugh, oh well!
Sunday was men's marathon day. Got up and watched the race. Go USA! Fun to watch all three americans do well. Happy to see Ward (Running Nerd) come in 6th place and kudos to him. Would love to read his PhD thesis on marathon pacing some day when it's publicly available. Afterwards, I headed out for my own run of 12 miles. Beautiful weather, not quite October morning yet, but getting closer. Pace was good. It was a tad tougher than normal because of the Saturday night run, but not too bad. Cold (Allergies?) is still lingering.
Monday was an easy day. Weather is still nice. Pace was comfortable.
Tuesday was the next progression in the strength workouts at a 3x2 mile. Another successful run! Almost dead on the 2 mile splits: 7:25, 7:25, 7:26. With a grade adjusted pace up the last hill peaking at a 5:10 min/mile. These strength runs have been very easy this cycle comparatively to previous Hansons cycle. I feel the reason is two fold: 1) I upped the speed work mileage which has made me better at the faster end of the spectrum of paces and 2) I've been putting in a lot of mileage and thus I've become that much stronger.
It's crazy to think I'm only 37 days out from the race. It's not real yet, but it's coming. There's not much time left to get better yet either. Only the following left:
Long Run - 2 (second to last this weekend)
Tempo - 5
Strength - 4 (peaks this coming week)
I can also tell my body is rounding into race shape. Most of this entire training cycle has been spent between 160-163 pounds. But these last few weeks, I have been steadily dropping down into the 157-158 area. Feeling nice and strong for these last few weeks of training.
Hard to believe we're only 37 days out now. Really hoping the weather finally breaks and becomes consistently cooler. Let's see how the week went.
Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)
8/17/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
8/18/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:06 min/mile + 10 miles @ 7:33 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:50 min/mile (3/10)
8/19/16 - F - 10 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (7/10)
8/20/16 - Sat - 11 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (7/11) + MISSED MBW
8/21/16 - Sun - 12 miles @ 8:13 min/mile (6/12)
8/22/16 - M - 9 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (7/9)
8/23/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:14 min/mile + 3 x 2 mile @ 7:23 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:20 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:41 min/mile (3/3)
Total mileage = 65 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 33/55 (60%)
Oh Thursday.... Thursday, Thursday, Thursday... Like I said a few weeks back Thursday is starting to become a trend for the most miserable weather day of the week. I severely underestimated the weather on Thursday. I briefly already posted about this run, but suffice to say it was a major crash and burn. The T+D was 159, the warm-up was too fast, the first interval was too fast, mid-challenge race by the girl with streamers, and a cold (maybe allergies, never had them before) that just won't go away. So after 5 miles of pushing really hard to maintain pace, I decided it was best to back off and finish the distance at a much easier pace. But it's obvious things weren't going well because even the easy pace was slowly dropping (partially because of lost motivation). Rather than push through a bad workout, it was better just to let it be and move on. It's always nice to remind yourself, "you are not as good as your best workout, and you are not as bad as your worst." These days happen and typically proceed and follow some good days. BTW, I lost 4 pounds from prior to running to after running and that included consuming 50 oz of water and 16 oz of chocolate milk (that's 4.125 pounds of liquid). And I still lost 4 pounds?!?! It must have been a hot one!
Friday came and I really underestimated the temperature again. I looked a little before I left and everything seemed fine, but the T+D of 152 was intense. It was cloudy, but I was completely soaked by the time I got home. That notwithstanding the run went well from a pace perspective.
Saturday I had my sister's baby shower which was about 1.5 hours away at her house. So the plan was to run in the morning. All week it had been predicting thunderstorms for Saturday morning so I wasn't sure what to expect. My plan was to wake up at 4:30am and either run at 5:00-6:30am, or run at 6:30-8:00am. Either way I was hoping one of these time blocks would avoid the thunderstorms. Yea, nope. Got up and it was predicted to thunderstorm from 5:45-7:00. This wouldn't leave me enough time to get ready and arrive on time for the baby shower so the run was moved to the evening. The baby shower was planned for 1-4pm so I was thinking maybe I'd get back around 5:30 for a not so late run. The baby shower was fun and went well. Gigi was crazy, as usual. We didn't end up leaving until 5:30 because we helped clean up, you know pregnant lady and all. So we didn't get home till 7:00pm and I was exhausted from the baby shower and driving all day. My wife looked at me and said, "You know maybe don't run tonight. You don't have to." And I said "yep, that's true, I don't have to". And then I got my stuff on and headed out the door. I was tired, but wasn't willing to have two days this week's cycle with a missed effort. Thankfully the weather was actually nice for a change. Run went well. Got home, ate dinner and started watching replays of all the track events from the evening. Was in the end of the men's 5K, coming around the home stretch, who's going to win?!?!? And then the feed cutoff at 10pm.... I was like NOOOOO! Who won?!?! I relegated myself to reading the recaps... Ugh, oh well!
Sunday was men's marathon day. Got up and watched the race. Go USA! Fun to watch all three americans do well. Happy to see Ward (Running Nerd) come in 6th place and kudos to him. Would love to read his PhD thesis on marathon pacing some day when it's publicly available. Afterwards, I headed out for my own run of 12 miles. Beautiful weather, not quite October morning yet, but getting closer. Pace was good. It was a tad tougher than normal because of the Saturday night run, but not too bad. Cold (Allergies?) is still lingering.
Monday was an easy day. Weather is still nice. Pace was comfortable.
Tuesday was the next progression in the strength workouts at a 3x2 mile. Another successful run! Almost dead on the 2 mile splits: 7:25, 7:25, 7:26. With a grade adjusted pace up the last hill peaking at a 5:10 min/mile. These strength runs have been very easy this cycle comparatively to previous Hansons cycle. I feel the reason is two fold: 1) I upped the speed work mileage which has made me better at the faster end of the spectrum of paces and 2) I've been putting in a lot of mileage and thus I've become that much stronger.
It's crazy to think I'm only 37 days out from the race. It's not real yet, but it's coming. There's not much time left to get better yet either. Only the following left:
Long Run - 2 (second to last this weekend)
Tempo - 5
Strength - 4 (peaks this coming week)
I can also tell my body is rounding into race shape. Most of this entire training cycle has been spent between 160-163 pounds. But these last few weeks, I have been steadily dropping down into the 157-158 area. Feeling nice and strong for these last few weeks of training.
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
33 Days to Go (Welcome to the Valley!)
Welcome to the Valley!
For there to be a peak, there must be a valley. Well sort of, but bear with me. I've found over the last couple of marathon training cycles that my body tends to hit a peak about 6-7 weeks out from the marathon and then hits a valley around 5-6 weeks to go. The runs during the peak seem effortless and very easy. The next peak is coming in about a week or so. The runs during the valley are tough and more representative of the end of the race. My body has been tired and sore. It's what happens when you get towards the end. The most important part is to keep listening to your body. If you need rest, rest. If you need an easy day, take an easy day. If you need to back off the paces, back off the paces. At this point, I've put in 15 good hard weeks of training. That training isn't going to suddenly disappear if I back off a little right now. But if I try and push through, well I can make little sores and pains become big sores and pains that start to elongate recovery times that possibly extend into race day. Better to be undertrained for race day, then injured on race day, and thankfully by no means am I undertrained this time around. With all that being said, welcome to the valley and let's see how the week went.
Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)
8/24/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
8/25/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 10 miles @ 7:33 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:35 min/mile (6/10)
8/26/16 - F - 10 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (8/10)
8/27/16 - Sat - 10 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (7/10) + MBW
8/28/16 - Sun - 18 miles @ 8:13 min/mile (15/18)
8/29/16 - M - 8 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (4/8)
8/30/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 2 x 3 mile @ 7:23 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:20 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:51 min/mile (1/2)
Total mileage = 69 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 41/58 (71%)
Well, Thursday's 10 miles of tempo was up to the plate again. Throughout the day prior to the run I felt some hip soreness. This is the same hip soreness that bothered me around the same time to go during the last marathon cycle. Thankfully, this time it's much milder because of the extra stretching I've been doing to try and strengthen my right hip. This time it likely occurred because I pushed myself too hard on the last strength interval on the Tuesday prior. So, in order to be extra cautious I decided to ease into the tempo pacing today. If I could do it, then fine do it. If I couldn't do it, then fine and back off. Thankfully it went well. I never reached down into my last tempo gear and was still able to maintain the paces once I got down to tempo pace.
Nothing special about Friday. Went out and completed as desired.
Saturday was tough. It's proving the hardest of all of the workouts even though it's an easy day just because of the short recovery from Friday night to Saturday morning. Now physically and cardiovascularly it isn't as tough as some of the other runs, but for an EB effort level it's tough to hit the desired pace.
Sunday was the second of the max long runs. A total of 18 miles (2:30). I had a beautiful T+D of 128 with a very dense fog. So the air was moist but there was no sun. I decided to still hold back today being that I'm in a valley and because of the sore hip. I was able to hit 15/18 intervals, but wasn't able to (and didn't want to) reach down into the last long run gear. Overall it was a successful run. Was able to maintain a very consistent effort and is underlined best by my 3 mile loop splits:
Loop #1 - 25:32
Loop #2 - 25:30
Loop #3 - 25:22
Loop #4 - 25:19
Very happy with this nice even pacing after my initial easing into the pace over the first 4.5 miles. Hip was feeing better and the recovery throughout the remainder of the day was quick.
Monday was another tough day. The weather was hotter T+D of 151 and I could tell I was still tired from yesterday's 18 mile run. Thankfully I had an easy short day of 8 miles @ 9:11 pace. I know that the purpose of today's workout is to just maintain that fatigue level from Sunday to Tuesday so there was no benefit of pushing the pace if my body settled on a slower EA effort. And so I was a touch slower than normal, but I'm happy with it overall because I held back a touch to help maintain the energy level necessary for Tuesday's peak of the strength workout.
So can you believe it? Tuesday's strength workout of 2 x 3 miles is the peak for this workout. It feels like not to long ago I transitioned into marathon specific workouts and here I am peaking for this particular one. This marathon is going to be here before I know it. I decided to play this run by ear. I ran the first interval just a touch under full effort and finished in 7:32. The leg muscles were stiff and sore for this interval. Then came decision time. Do I go for it on the 2nd 3 mile interval, or do I continue to play it safe? I decided to go for it. Bam, hit the 7:24 pace and was happy with it. Other than the last 0.5 mile or so it was a comfortable pace. That's it for strength, now it's time to wind it down.
Not much time left. Only 33 days to go (and yes, I noticed my math on previous updates has been off, decided to leave it as a reminder that I need to fix it during my summary update). Next cycle week is the beginning of the end for the tempo workout. I'm peaking at 11 miles at marathon tempo with 3 total miles of WU/CD (total of 14 miles on Thursdays) starting on Thursday. There's only one more max run in a little less than 2 weeks. And the strength workouts have started to wind down. In less than 2 weeks, I'll have entered Taper town - population me. And before I know it, marathon day will be here. My "A" goal race for the year. The one I've been building towards since January 25th. It's been a long training season. I've almost finished "proving it" on the training days and now it's almost time to "prove it" on race day.
Welcome to the Valley!
For there to be a peak, there must be a valley. Well sort of, but bear with me. I've found over the last couple of marathon training cycles that my body tends to hit a peak about 6-7 weeks out from the marathon and then hits a valley around 5-6 weeks to go. The runs during the peak seem effortless and very easy. The next peak is coming in about a week or so. The runs during the valley are tough and more representative of the end of the race. My body has been tired and sore. It's what happens when you get towards the end. The most important part is to keep listening to your body. If you need rest, rest. If you need an easy day, take an easy day. If you need to back off the paces, back off the paces. At this point, I've put in 15 good hard weeks of training. That training isn't going to suddenly disappear if I back off a little right now. But if I try and push through, well I can make little sores and pains become big sores and pains that start to elongate recovery times that possibly extend into race day. Better to be undertrained for race day, then injured on race day, and thankfully by no means am I undertrained this time around. With all that being said, welcome to the valley and let's see how the week went.
Date - Day - Scheduled Workout (Intervals within desired pace, Strength +/- 5 sec, everything else +/- 10 sec)
8/24/16 - W - Medicine Ball Workout (MBW)
8/25/16 - R - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 10 miles @ 7:33 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:35 min/mile (6/10)
8/26/16 - F - 10 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (8/10)
8/27/16 - Sat - 10 miles @ 8:33 min/mile (7/10) + MBW
8/28/16 - Sun - 18 miles @ 8:13 min/mile (15/18)
8/29/16 - M - 8 miles @ 9:11 min/mile (4/8)
8/30/16 - T - 1.5 miles @ 9:30 min/mile + 2 x 3 mile @ 7:23 min/mile with 400m RI @ 9:20 min/mile + 1.5 miles @ 9:51 min/mile (1/2)
Total mileage = 69 miles
Number of intervals within pace = 41/58 (71%)
Well, Thursday's 10 miles of tempo was up to the plate again. Throughout the day prior to the run I felt some hip soreness. This is the same hip soreness that bothered me around the same time to go during the last marathon cycle. Thankfully, this time it's much milder because of the extra stretching I've been doing to try and strengthen my right hip. This time it likely occurred because I pushed myself too hard on the last strength interval on the Tuesday prior. So, in order to be extra cautious I decided to ease into the tempo pacing today. If I could do it, then fine do it. If I couldn't do it, then fine and back off. Thankfully it went well. I never reached down into my last tempo gear and was still able to maintain the paces once I got down to tempo pace.
Nothing special about Friday. Went out and completed as desired.
Saturday was tough. It's proving the hardest of all of the workouts even though it's an easy day just because of the short recovery from Friday night to Saturday morning. Now physically and cardiovascularly it isn't as tough as some of the other runs, but for an EB effort level it's tough to hit the desired pace.
Sunday was the second of the max long runs. A total of 18 miles (2:30). I had a beautiful T+D of 128 with a very dense fog. So the air was moist but there was no sun. I decided to still hold back today being that I'm in a valley and because of the sore hip. I was able to hit 15/18 intervals, but wasn't able to (and didn't want to) reach down into the last long run gear. Overall it was a successful run. Was able to maintain a very consistent effort and is underlined best by my 3 mile loop splits:
Loop #1 - 25:32
Loop #2 - 25:30
Loop #3 - 25:22
Loop #4 - 25:19
Very happy with this nice even pacing after my initial easing into the pace over the first 4.5 miles. Hip was feeing better and the recovery throughout the remainder of the day was quick.
Monday was another tough day. The weather was hotter T+D of 151 and I could tell I was still tired from yesterday's 18 mile run. Thankfully I had an easy short day of 8 miles @ 9:11 pace. I know that the purpose of today's workout is to just maintain that fatigue level from Sunday to Tuesday so there was no benefit of pushing the pace if my body settled on a slower EA effort. And so I was a touch slower than normal, but I'm happy with it overall because I held back a touch to help maintain the energy level necessary for Tuesday's peak of the strength workout.
So can you believe it? Tuesday's strength workout of 2 x 3 miles is the peak for this workout. It feels like not to long ago I transitioned into marathon specific workouts and here I am peaking for this particular one. This marathon is going to be here before I know it. I decided to play this run by ear. I ran the first interval just a touch under full effort and finished in 7:32. The leg muscles were stiff and sore for this interval. Then came decision time. Do I go for it on the 2nd 3 mile interval, or do I continue to play it safe? I decided to go for it. Bam, hit the 7:24 pace and was happy with it. Other than the last 0.5 mile or so it was a comfortable pace. That's it for strength, now it's time to wind it down.
Not much time left. Only 33 days to go (and yes, I noticed my math on previous updates has been off, decided to leave it as a reminder that I need to fix it during my summary update). Next cycle week is the beginning of the end for the tempo workout. I'm peaking at 11 miles at marathon tempo with 3 total miles of WU/CD (total of 14 miles on Thursdays) starting on Thursday. There's only one more max run in a little less than 2 weeks. And the strength workouts have started to wind down. In less than 2 weeks, I'll have entered Taper town - population me. And before I know it, marathon day will be here. My "A" goal race for the year. The one I've been building towards since January 25th. It's been a long training season. I've almost finished "proving it" on the training days and now it's almost time to "prove it" on race day.
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
Eureka! 
So I've been going back and forth with @dis_or_dat about the science of running, improvement and training methodology in general. And through these conversations it has pushed me to learn and keep reading more to try and be able to keep answering all of her questions. This morning it just clicked for me. I think to an extent it all finally starts to make sense to me. So, thus without further ado my best attempt to explain running:
I'm going to start at the top and work my way down. I'm also not going to go into full detail when I don't think it's necessary for others to be able to get the big picture.
VO2max
There are several factors that determine how fast you can finish a race. So let's start at the top. VO2max can be considered your pure speed number. It's essentially the maximum amount of oxygen your body can utilize at any point in time. So, ok what does the number mean to me? Well by using your VO2max you can figure out your top speed (and yes you can run a little faster than VO2max for a very short duration). Knowing your top speed allows you to get an idea how fast you can run in a race. For example, my VO2max is 64. How did I get that number? Well there's three ways:
1) Get a lab test. It's expensive but the most accurate value.
2) Use a Garmin. These use heart rate variability data from the device to determine VO2max. Garmin's scientific paper has shown that the values received from heart rate variability have a strong correlation to the lab test, but it isn't perfect. But for most everyone's purpose, it's good enough.
3) Lastly you can use your resting heart rate and age. This is the most crude method. It can give you a general idea, but it isn't nearly as grounded in good science as options 1 and 2. I use the following website: link.
Alright, so I know my VO2max now. What can that tell me? Well using your VO2max can let us know what your vV02 is or your maximal velocity at VO2max. The calculation is:
vVO2 = 2.8859+0.0686*(VO2max-29)
This value outputs velocity in meters/second. So, you'll want to convert to mph to make it easier to work with.
mph = vVO2 in m/s * 2.23694
With your vVO2 in mph you can convert to pace by dividing that number by 60. Hence your vVO2 pace in minutes.decimals.
Alright, enough math, what's next. Well by multiplying that number by different percentages it gives you a pace for different %VO2max.
Alright, alright that's enough math already. Get to the point! Shouldn't we just line everyone up in race and say what's your VO2max and hand out awards that way? I mean VO2max is the determinant for pure speed right?
It's true, but.... there are still other players. It's why on the table above I've got ranges of predictions for half marathon and marathon finishing zones. The VO2max should be thought of as your cap. It alone won't decide the final finishing time, but you won't be able to finish faster than it.
Lactate Threshold
Lactate gets a bad wrap. People say why do you slow down, well it's because you crossed the lactate threshold and had too much lactic acid in your muscles. That's not necessarily the case. Lactate is a good and easily testable biochemical marker. It happens to correlate with the increase in fatigue that people associate with the lactate threshold. But Lactate itself is not the bad guy, it's just a marker that correlates well with the bad guys which aren't nearly as easy to test. So, let's call the bad guys "fatigue". The "fatigue" is a cocktail of many other items that together cause you to have the feeling you want to slow down. So, then what's the lactate threshold. Well as your pace increases you get closer to this magical pace that goes from "I could run this forever" to "oh god this hurts so much". It's the point at which you accumulate "fatigue" too quickly and your body can't flush it out of your system fast enough. So, then this "fatigue" gets in the way and causes you to not produce as much energy and thus you get the feeling like you need to slow down. So, what's the graph look like:
As you can see you can be running along and as long as you stay slower than the crutch point (the lactate threshold), then you'll be able to maintain that pace for quite some time. However, once you pass that magical threshold well then you start to crash and burn because you've accumulated more fatigue than your body can clear. And the increase is dramatic once you pass the lactate threshold. This goes to show why pacing is so darn important. The matter of 10-15 seconds could be the difference between being below the lactate threshold and running forever and being above the running threshold and hitting the "wall". Different kind of "wall" then the glycogen depletion wall as this one is fatigue induced and happens much more often to people when they refer to hitting the "wall" and slowing down at the end of the race.
This is why that first mile or so of pacing is so important for racing. You're feeling good after your taper and you throw out a mile split about 10-15 seconds faster than your goal pace in the beginning of the race. Well then it's possible you've passed the lactate threshold pace and induced a higher rate of fatigue build-up then you'll be capable of clearing. You won't notice in the beginning of the race because well it's a pace you can maintain for 50-60 minutes, but you'll definitely know it at the end of the half marathon/marathon when you start to seriously slow down.
So then here's the big question? What's my lactate threshold? If I knew that pace I would just try and stay below it. So give me your fancy calculation to figure that out. Well here it is:
Lactate threshold = ?
Simply put, there isn't a calculation for it. Everyone is an individual and thus this value is highly variable. But there are ways you can figure it out.
1) Get a lab test. It's not nearly as expensive generally as the VO2max test. (*but there's a reason why unless you have easy access to this all the time, then it won't prove very useful)
2) Use a Garmin. Some of the newer Garmins have a feature that helps determine lactate threshold. I have not read the white paper on this process so I don't know the reasoning behind it so I can't speak to how well it correlates to the actual number. This in my opinion though would be a better option if it proves to be accurate.
3) Run lactate threshold workouts and see whether you can complete them at the pace you've chosen.
So if you choose option 3, then where do I start with a lactate threshold pace. Try a pace that you can maintain for about an hour (60 min). It's a starting point, but doesn't necessarily mean it's your actual LT pace. So,
If you run a 5K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 20:00 min/mile.
If you run a 10K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 9:40 min/mile.
If you run a 15K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 6:27 min/mile.
If you run a HM in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 4:35 min/mile.
The purpose of a lactate threshold workout is to induce the body's response to fatigue build-up and to train it to clear it more efficiently and to be able to tolerate what it's like to run in those conditions. Dependent on the desired race distance you can do LT workouts at longer or shorter durations. For most of us, we do HM and M races so the interval length is typically 8-12 minutes and builds up to 20-30 minute intervals. And the total time of the running intervals is somewhere around 40-50 minutes. The rest intervals are usually about half the time it takes to do the interval. So if the run interval is 10 minutes, then the rest interval can be 5 minutes or less. Playing with the distance of the interval as well as the duration of the rest interval elicits different responses to improving the Lactate Threshold.
In the end, to determine whether the workout is at LT pace is simply "could you complete the workout". If you could complete the workout at the pace through all of the running intervals, then you were likely at or below your LT. More importantly, if you find that you fail to maintain the goal pace throughout the workout, then your LT was likely slower and the next time you need to back off. Here's the catch, depending on the workout you could conceivably complete it at a faster than LT pace, but if you do that consistently during training you miss out on the intent of the workout. You end up working on anaerobic power and VO2max type benefits and less on lactate threshold benefits.
Lastly, here comes the *. Your LT pace can improve and should improve over time. So unless you choose to get a lab test every 8-12 weeks to re-assess your LT pace it's best to use option 2 or 3 as a guideline.
Here's the thing that at first blush didn't make sense to me about LT pace. Clearly someone who is running a 5K at LT pace is running slower than a person running a HM at LT pace. But what didn't make sense to me is that an elite person could run a 5K at faster than LT pace and yet one normal person's LT pace could be faster than the other person's relative race pace. It confused me. So elite people run the LT pace at a relatively slower pace compared to a normal person? Normal person LT pace is between 10K-15K and Elite is between 15K-HM? Wouldn't it make sense that the elite person's LT pace is faster in relationship to their races?
Well here's the catch. The normal person and elite person might not be running equivalent %VO2max for each of their respective races. So a normal person might run a 5K at 84% VO2max (thus 84% maximum velocity) and HM at 73% VO2max and yet an elite person can run a HM at 90% VO2max. Thus, while it might seem at first blush that the normal person gets to run at a faster relative pace for LT pace (5K vs HM). It might be that the elite person's capability to run at LT is actually higher to their relative %VO2max. So don't necessarily look at LT paces relative to race times but more-so relative to your %VO2max.
So when one suggests running at 10K pace or HM pace for LT pace it's hard to say what's right for one person will be right for another.
Alright, so I've finally figure out my LT pace. Let's say it's 10:00 min/mile. Well as long as I stay slower than that I can run forever. Perfect, thanks for your help. So we'll just line everyone up by VO2max and by LT pace then we'll know how we should divy out the medals at each race. Well, not exactly. Wait, what? There's one more thing to consider....
Running Economy
Here's the kicker. Even within a day your Lactate Threshold is not a constant. There is no set pace that will be your magical point at which you start to accumulate more fatigue than you can clear for an entire duration run. This is an important point and one I was unclear existed until recently. I re-read Pfitz's book and in the book he states that lactate threshold can change based on running economy. This means that while you can test your lactate threshold to be 10:00 it doesn't have to stay at 10:00 for the entire run or from day to day. WAIT WHAT?!?!
Now wait a second? You just said I can run forever... Yea I know what I said. It was to help explain the concept of Lactate threshold, but there is one more piece to the puzzle.
The ability to stay in that flat section of the lactate threshold is dependent on your running economy. Alright, so what's the running economy piece of the puzzle. It's the ability of your body to use oxygen efficiently for the purpose of creating energy. Well that seems simple enough. How can I work on running economy?
Well, that's were the magic long run comes in. By running for extended distances/durations you teach your body how to become more efficient and economical at using the energy it creates (and the processes to create that energy). By running long distances you learn the appropriate running techniques. Where do my arms need to be? Where do my eyes need to be looking? What about my shoulders? Foot strike? Cadence? etc. These different things play a role in how efficient you are. The longer you can remain efficient the longer your LT pace stays the same (*or improves?) during the long duration run. So by doing the long run it teaches you to become more efficient.
But doing the long run at the right pace is important to elicit this learning process. If you constantly move past the LT pace or run too close to it on your long runs you constantly teach your body how to survive the long run, but you likely lose your running efficiency while running and struggle to teach your body the necessary biomechanics to stay running for 3-4-5-6 hours. So pace and duration play an important role in the long run process.
So what does running economy mean in the bigger picture? Well, if you have good running economy then your 10:00 LT pace will stay there for longer. The less you become economical, then that LT pace could become 10:05, then 10:15, then 10:30. So you won't be able to find out your LT pace and just run with it because over time and duration of a single run it can change.
So all of this partly stemmed from a previous conversation about why Hansons recommends LT paces for HM plans at HM-10 seconds or 10K pace and for M plans at M-10 seconds. Potentially, it's because the induced fatigue level from cumulative fatigue going into the strength workouts may not be equivalent between the HM plans and the M plans. Thus, the LT pace might be slower in the M plan because you're more tired (and thus have more fatigue going into the run) then the HM plan. But the elicited benefits between the HM strength pace and M strength pace might actually be equivalent even though the relative pace against race paces is different. In addition, %VO2max also still plays a role so again it's not just that easy.
So what's the strategy I can take from this? Well, this helps explain why starting off too fast can be disastrous. It helps explain why VO2max or LT pace isn't the final determining factors in race performance. It helps explain why a LT pace can be different between a normal person and an elite when the normal is at 10K pace and the elite at HM pace. So potentially being "slower" relative to your race pace doesn't immediately mean your LT pace is worse than another person, because you could be running at a higher % VO2max comparative to another person. Lastly, it explains why if you stay just below your LT pace it won't allow you to run indefinitely because your running economy dictates how long the LT pace stays constant.
Alright, that's all I got at the moment. Go ahead and give me your critique and point out the errors. I'd love to hear differing opinions because hearing other views will help make our understanding more powerful.
*Amended after the first iteration to include @roxymama 's suggestion:
Psychobiological Model: The desire, the motivation, and the ability to block it out!
Alright, so we've got our speed cap (VO2max), our pace before we crash (Lactate Threshold), and our ability to hold the pace prior to crashing (Running Economy), but what happens after the crash begins. Well, I think the Psychobiological model of endurance running can help explain that:
The Psychobiological model is an effort-based decision model based on motivational intensity theory. The model states there are five factors that primarily determine regulation of pacing.
1) Perception of effort
2) Potential motivation
3) Knowledge of distance/time to cover
4) Knowledge of distance/time remaining
5) Previous experience/memory of perception of effort during exercise of varying intensity and duration
The potential motivation is defined, as the maximum effort a person is willing to exert to meet a certain task. The motivational intensity is the amount of effort that people actually expend to meet that task. The combination of these two ideas into the Motivational Intensity Theory creates the framework for why an individual will continue in a task: either the level of potential motivation hasn’t been reached or the task is still viewed as possible. A person will disengage from the task when either the perception of effort outweighs the potential motivation or the person believes they are physically unable to maintain the task (believed to maxed effort).
So what does this mean? Well we can have two people with the same LT pace. They can have equivalent economy and equivalent VO2max and yet they STILL might not finish at the same pace. Why? Because one is more WILLING to tolerate the pain/level of fatigue they're feeling. They might both be at a lactate concentration of 3.5 mmol/L (normal is around 1.0) and yet runner A might have a higher motivational reason for running and thus is willing to tolerate the feeling of 3.5 mmol/L of fatigue by products more so than runner B. Runner A keeps maintaining pace and Runner B succumbs to the feeling of fatigue and slows down.
So can we train our bodies to become more resistant to the feeling of fatigue? Can we alter our perception of effort and thus maintain this higher pain threshold? Yes, you can.
Dampeners of Perception of Effort (Factor 1)
Music
Essentially, it has been shown in many studies that by having music that is enjoyed, self-selected, and has a high bpm the overall perception of effort is decreased. This decreased perception of effort was connected with increased ability when used during races below the anaerobic threshold. I believe this is because in a 5K the physical limitations are what they are and the dampening of effort is ineffective. However, prior to a 5K using amping up music works by raising self confidence and HR. So pump up the jams and you'll reduce your perception of effort. You can run faster listening to music you like that has a high beats per minute.
Caffeine
Apparently an antagonist of adenosine which has a significant number of receptors in the brain that are responsible for sleep, memory, learning and cognition. Since caffeine occupies these receptors without actually activating them it is hypothesized that the perception of effort during endurance events is dampened and performance increases. An 11.2% improvement in performance was seen with a decreased perception of effort by using caffeine during running.
Self Talk
When one repeats positive messages to themselves its been shown to improve a test to exhaustion by almost 17%. So keep reminding yourself when you're running how awesome you're doing. Keep blocking out those negative thoughts. This is the main reason I race blind. I like to keep everything positive and I know from my personal experience that if I have GPS feedback on HR or pace that I'll freak out and start to have negative thoughts. By running blind I withhold that information from myself and thus keep those positive thoughts flowing.
Amplifiers of Perception of Effort (Factor 1)
Mental Fatigue
A study was conducted on cyclists that had to perform one of two simple tests. For a period of time prior to cycling the subjects had to state the color of the word. In group A, the color of the word matched the actual word (Word Blue was written in Blue ink), whereas the second group the word blue did not necessarily appear in the color blue. The second group was more mentally challenging, but in the grand scheme of mental tasks was not overly difficult. While the rate at which perception of effort increased equally, the starting point was significantly higher in the group who had to complete the “harder” mental task even though that task had no additional physical component. The harder mental task caused a decrease in performance by about 4% from the easier mental task. It is hypothesized that this harder mental task works in the same area of the brain as adenosine, which might explain the possible increase in perception of effort.
There was also another study similar to this one that put elites against normal cyclists. The small twist was adding in if the word was "red" it always had the answer of red regardless of the color of the word. So, it was like a third variable thrown at the cyclists. The elites were able to answer more words correctly, do it faster, and then afterwards had little to no difference between the easy task and hard task on its affect of a ride to exhaustion. Yet the normal person was slower on these tasks, got more wrong, and showed a large difference in how they responded on the cycle to exhaustion with after the easy task they performed better than after the hard task. So not only were the elite cyclists better cyclists, but they showed the ability to handle mental fatigue better than the normal cyclists.
So what does it mean for me and how can I use this information?
You can potentially decrease the perception of effort by:
-Listening to music you enjoy, makes you happy, and has a higher bpm.
-Use caffeine during exercise (I won’t do this one because caffeine gives me a headache).
-During the entire event use positive thinking. Consistently tell yourself how awesome you are and how awesome you are doing. If a negative thought comes in your head “Why did I sign up for this?” try to counter balance it with positive thoughts. Remember why you signed up for this. Remember how proud you are making someone in your life. Remember that you are rocking this!
-Reduce the amount of things you are thinking about prior to and during running. Set out your clothes in advance. Plan your driving route. Reduce your mental gymnastics by pre-planning as much as possible.
What about the other factors?
Potential Motivation
-One of my biggest motivators is trying to beat others. But something I’ve found for myself is this is self-dampened when there is a staggered start. It’s hard to know whether the person passing you is actually beating you or not because maybe they started ahead of you or behind you. But in a single start race it’s more likely when someone passes you they are actually head of you time wise as well. Are you going for that BQ? Are you going for a new PR? Do you have another race in three weeks and you're wiling to bag this one when it's not going well (a loss in motivation)?
Knowledge of Distance/Time to cover (Factor 3)
-This is hard to manipulate in an actual race because in almost all scenarios you usually know the duration/distance that is going to be covered.
Knowledge of Distance/Time remaining (Factor 4)
-I believe in running by effort and thus ignoring how you’ve been performing. I feel like in the past I have been overly negative during running when a mile split comes in at an unexpected slower pace. In this negative loop this causes me to start thinking about alternative finishing times. Then your goals start to slip away and your motivation wains. Without your motivation your perception of effort increases and makes everything feel harder than it would have been. As you can see I feel these are all connected in a cascade of events. To combat this, I ignore how I’ve been doing and just keep positive thoughts telling myself that I’m crushing it.
Previous experience/memory of perception of effort during exercise of varying intensity and duration (Factor 5)
-This one is physical and mental in my opinion. I believe this is where the training aspect of running comes in physically. The fitter you get the easier something feels. What was once tough is easier because your level of perception of effort has changed for that level of fitness.
-I follow this by trying to memorize what every run feels like. What does an easy run feel like? What does a marathon tempo feel like? What does a long run feel like? What does a full sprint feel like?
-Once you get to race day keep reminding yourself that this race is actually easier then some of your training runs. Keep telling yourself this is not that bad compared to that one training run you did.
Alright @roxymama how did I do?
So I've been going back and forth with @dis_or_dat about the science of running, improvement and training methodology in general. And through these conversations it has pushed me to learn and keep reading more to try and be able to keep answering all of her questions. This morning it just clicked for me. I think to an extent it all finally starts to make sense to me. So, thus without further ado my best attempt to explain running:
I'm going to start at the top and work my way down. I'm also not going to go into full detail when I don't think it's necessary for others to be able to get the big picture.
VO2max
There are several factors that determine how fast you can finish a race. So let's start at the top. VO2max can be considered your pure speed number. It's essentially the maximum amount of oxygen your body can utilize at any point in time. So, ok what does the number mean to me? Well by using your VO2max you can figure out your top speed (and yes you can run a little faster than VO2max for a very short duration). Knowing your top speed allows you to get an idea how fast you can run in a race. For example, my VO2max is 64. How did I get that number? Well there's three ways:
1) Get a lab test. It's expensive but the most accurate value.
2) Use a Garmin. These use heart rate variability data from the device to determine VO2max. Garmin's scientific paper has shown that the values received from heart rate variability have a strong correlation to the lab test, but it isn't perfect. But for most everyone's purpose, it's good enough.
3) Lastly you can use your resting heart rate and age. This is the most crude method. It can give you a general idea, but it isn't nearly as grounded in good science as options 1 and 2. I use the following website: link.
Alright, so I know my VO2max now. What can that tell me? Well using your VO2max can let us know what your vV02 is or your maximal velocity at VO2max. The calculation is:
vVO2 = 2.8859+0.0686*(VO2max-29)
This value outputs velocity in meters/second. So, you'll want to convert to mph to make it easier to work with.
mph = vVO2 in m/s * 2.23694
With your vVO2 in mph you can convert to pace by dividing that number by 60. Hence your vVO2 pace in minutes.decimals.
Alright, enough math, what's next. Well by multiplying that number by different percentages it gives you a pace for different %VO2max.
Alright, alright that's enough math already. Get to the point! Shouldn't we just line everyone up in race and say what's your VO2max and hand out awards that way? I mean VO2max is the determinant for pure speed right?
It's true, but.... there are still other players. It's why on the table above I've got ranges of predictions for half marathon and marathon finishing zones. The VO2max should be thought of as your cap. It alone won't decide the final finishing time, but you won't be able to finish faster than it.
Lactate Threshold
Lactate gets a bad wrap. People say why do you slow down, well it's because you crossed the lactate threshold and had too much lactic acid in your muscles. That's not necessarily the case. Lactate is a good and easily testable biochemical marker. It happens to correlate with the increase in fatigue that people associate with the lactate threshold. But Lactate itself is not the bad guy, it's just a marker that correlates well with the bad guys which aren't nearly as easy to test. So, let's call the bad guys "fatigue". The "fatigue" is a cocktail of many other items that together cause you to have the feeling you want to slow down. So, then what's the lactate threshold. Well as your pace increases you get closer to this magical pace that goes from "I could run this forever" to "oh god this hurts so much". It's the point at which you accumulate "fatigue" too quickly and your body can't flush it out of your system fast enough. So, then this "fatigue" gets in the way and causes you to not produce as much energy and thus you get the feeling like you need to slow down. So, what's the graph look like:
As you can see you can be running along and as long as you stay slower than the crutch point (the lactate threshold), then you'll be able to maintain that pace for quite some time. However, once you pass that magical threshold well then you start to crash and burn because you've accumulated more fatigue than your body can clear. And the increase is dramatic once you pass the lactate threshold. This goes to show why pacing is so darn important. The matter of 10-15 seconds could be the difference between being below the lactate threshold and running forever and being above the running threshold and hitting the "wall". Different kind of "wall" then the glycogen depletion wall as this one is fatigue induced and happens much more often to people when they refer to hitting the "wall" and slowing down at the end of the race.
This is why that first mile or so of pacing is so important for racing. You're feeling good after your taper and you throw out a mile split about 10-15 seconds faster than your goal pace in the beginning of the race. Well then it's possible you've passed the lactate threshold pace and induced a higher rate of fatigue build-up then you'll be capable of clearing. You won't notice in the beginning of the race because well it's a pace you can maintain for 50-60 minutes, but you'll definitely know it at the end of the half marathon/marathon when you start to seriously slow down.
So then here's the big question? What's my lactate threshold? If I knew that pace I would just try and stay below it. So give me your fancy calculation to figure that out. Well here it is:
Lactate threshold = ?
Simply put, there isn't a calculation for it. Everyone is an individual and thus this value is highly variable. But there are ways you can figure it out.
1) Get a lab test. It's not nearly as expensive generally as the VO2max test. (*but there's a reason why unless you have easy access to this all the time, then it won't prove very useful)
2) Use a Garmin. Some of the newer Garmins have a feature that helps determine lactate threshold. I have not read the white paper on this process so I don't know the reasoning behind it so I can't speak to how well it correlates to the actual number. This in my opinion though would be a better option if it proves to be accurate.
3) Run lactate threshold workouts and see whether you can complete them at the pace you've chosen.
So if you choose option 3, then where do I start with a lactate threshold pace. Try a pace that you can maintain for about an hour (60 min). It's a starting point, but doesn't necessarily mean it's your actual LT pace. So,
If you run a 5K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 20:00 min/mile.
If you run a 10K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 9:40 min/mile.
If you run a 15K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 6:27 min/mile.
If you run a HM in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 4:35 min/mile.
The purpose of a lactate threshold workout is to induce the body's response to fatigue build-up and to train it to clear it more efficiently and to be able to tolerate what it's like to run in those conditions. Dependent on the desired race distance you can do LT workouts at longer or shorter durations. For most of us, we do HM and M races so the interval length is typically 8-12 minutes and builds up to 20-30 minute intervals. And the total time of the running intervals is somewhere around 40-50 minutes. The rest intervals are usually about half the time it takes to do the interval. So if the run interval is 10 minutes, then the rest interval can be 5 minutes or less. Playing with the distance of the interval as well as the duration of the rest interval elicits different responses to improving the Lactate Threshold.
In the end, to determine whether the workout is at LT pace is simply "could you complete the workout". If you could complete the workout at the pace through all of the running intervals, then you were likely at or below your LT. More importantly, if you find that you fail to maintain the goal pace throughout the workout, then your LT was likely slower and the next time you need to back off. Here's the catch, depending on the workout you could conceivably complete it at a faster than LT pace, but if you do that consistently during training you miss out on the intent of the workout. You end up working on anaerobic power and VO2max type benefits and less on lactate threshold benefits.
Lastly, here comes the *. Your LT pace can improve and should improve over time. So unless you choose to get a lab test every 8-12 weeks to re-assess your LT pace it's best to use option 2 or 3 as a guideline.
Here's the thing that at first blush didn't make sense to me about LT pace. Clearly someone who is running a 5K at LT pace is running slower than a person running a HM at LT pace. But what didn't make sense to me is that an elite person could run a 5K at faster than LT pace and yet one normal person's LT pace could be faster than the other person's relative race pace. It confused me. So elite people run the LT pace at a relatively slower pace compared to a normal person? Normal person LT pace is between 10K-15K and Elite is between 15K-HM? Wouldn't it make sense that the elite person's LT pace is faster in relationship to their races?
Well here's the catch. The normal person and elite person might not be running equivalent %VO2max for each of their respective races. So a normal person might run a 5K at 84% VO2max (thus 84% maximum velocity) and HM at 73% VO2max and yet an elite person can run a HM at 90% VO2max. Thus, while it might seem at first blush that the normal person gets to run at a faster relative pace for LT pace (5K vs HM). It might be that the elite person's capability to run at LT is actually higher to their relative %VO2max. So don't necessarily look at LT paces relative to race times but more-so relative to your %VO2max.
So when one suggests running at 10K pace or HM pace for LT pace it's hard to say what's right for one person will be right for another.
Alright, so I've finally figure out my LT pace. Let's say it's 10:00 min/mile. Well as long as I stay slower than that I can run forever. Perfect, thanks for your help. So we'll just line everyone up by VO2max and by LT pace then we'll know how we should divy out the medals at each race. Well, not exactly. Wait, what? There's one more thing to consider....
Running Economy
Here's the kicker. Even within a day your Lactate Threshold is not a constant. There is no set pace that will be your magical point at which you start to accumulate more fatigue than you can clear for an entire duration run. This is an important point and one I was unclear existed until recently. I re-read Pfitz's book and in the book he states that lactate threshold can change based on running economy. This means that while you can test your lactate threshold to be 10:00 it doesn't have to stay at 10:00 for the entire run or from day to day. WAIT WHAT?!?!
Now wait a second? You just said I can run forever... Yea I know what I said. It was to help explain the concept of Lactate threshold, but there is one more piece to the puzzle.
The ability to stay in that flat section of the lactate threshold is dependent on your running economy. Alright, so what's the running economy piece of the puzzle. It's the ability of your body to use oxygen efficiently for the purpose of creating energy. Well that seems simple enough. How can I work on running economy?
Well, that's were the magic long run comes in. By running for extended distances/durations you teach your body how to become more efficient and economical at using the energy it creates (and the processes to create that energy). By running long distances you learn the appropriate running techniques. Where do my arms need to be? Where do my eyes need to be looking? What about my shoulders? Foot strike? Cadence? etc. These different things play a role in how efficient you are. The longer you can remain efficient the longer your LT pace stays the same (*or improves?) during the long duration run. So by doing the long run it teaches you to become more efficient.
But doing the long run at the right pace is important to elicit this learning process. If you constantly move past the LT pace or run too close to it on your long runs you constantly teach your body how to survive the long run, but you likely lose your running efficiency while running and struggle to teach your body the necessary biomechanics to stay running for 3-4-5-6 hours. So pace and duration play an important role in the long run process.
So what does running economy mean in the bigger picture? Well, if you have good running economy then your 10:00 LT pace will stay there for longer. The less you become economical, then that LT pace could become 10:05, then 10:15, then 10:30. So you won't be able to find out your LT pace and just run with it because over time and duration of a single run it can change.
So all of this partly stemmed from a previous conversation about why Hansons recommends LT paces for HM plans at HM-10 seconds or 10K pace and for M plans at M-10 seconds. Potentially, it's because the induced fatigue level from cumulative fatigue going into the strength workouts may not be equivalent between the HM plans and the M plans. Thus, the LT pace might be slower in the M plan because you're more tired (and thus have more fatigue going into the run) then the HM plan. But the elicited benefits between the HM strength pace and M strength pace might actually be equivalent even though the relative pace against race paces is different. In addition, %VO2max also still plays a role so again it's not just that easy.
So what's the strategy I can take from this? Well, this helps explain why starting off too fast can be disastrous. It helps explain why VO2max or LT pace isn't the final determining factors in race performance. It helps explain why a LT pace can be different between a normal person and an elite when the normal is at 10K pace and the elite at HM pace. So potentially being "slower" relative to your race pace doesn't immediately mean your LT pace is worse than another person, because you could be running at a higher % VO2max comparative to another person. Lastly, it explains why if you stay just below your LT pace it won't allow you to run indefinitely because your running economy dictates how long the LT pace stays constant.
Alright, that's all I got at the moment. Go ahead and give me your critique and point out the errors. I'd love to hear differing opinions because hearing other views will help make our understanding more powerful.
*Amended after the first iteration to include @roxymama 's suggestion:
Psychobiological Model: The desire, the motivation, and the ability to block it out!
Alright, so we've got our speed cap (VO2max), our pace before we crash (Lactate Threshold), and our ability to hold the pace prior to crashing (Running Economy), but what happens after the crash begins. Well, I think the Psychobiological model of endurance running can help explain that:
The Psychobiological model is an effort-based decision model based on motivational intensity theory. The model states there are five factors that primarily determine regulation of pacing.
1) Perception of effort
2) Potential motivation
3) Knowledge of distance/time to cover
4) Knowledge of distance/time remaining
5) Previous experience/memory of perception of effort during exercise of varying intensity and duration
The potential motivation is defined, as the maximum effort a person is willing to exert to meet a certain task. The motivational intensity is the amount of effort that people actually expend to meet that task. The combination of these two ideas into the Motivational Intensity Theory creates the framework for why an individual will continue in a task: either the level of potential motivation hasn’t been reached or the task is still viewed as possible. A person will disengage from the task when either the perception of effort outweighs the potential motivation or the person believes they are physically unable to maintain the task (believed to maxed effort).
So what does this mean? Well we can have two people with the same LT pace. They can have equivalent economy and equivalent VO2max and yet they STILL might not finish at the same pace. Why? Because one is more WILLING to tolerate the pain/level of fatigue they're feeling. They might both be at a lactate concentration of 3.5 mmol/L (normal is around 1.0) and yet runner A might have a higher motivational reason for running and thus is willing to tolerate the feeling of 3.5 mmol/L of fatigue by products more so than runner B. Runner A keeps maintaining pace and Runner B succumbs to the feeling of fatigue and slows down.
So can we train our bodies to become more resistant to the feeling of fatigue? Can we alter our perception of effort and thus maintain this higher pain threshold? Yes, you can.
Dampeners of Perception of Effort (Factor 1)
Music
Essentially, it has been shown in many studies that by having music that is enjoyed, self-selected, and has a high bpm the overall perception of effort is decreased. This decreased perception of effort was connected with increased ability when used during races below the anaerobic threshold. I believe this is because in a 5K the physical limitations are what they are and the dampening of effort is ineffective. However, prior to a 5K using amping up music works by raising self confidence and HR. So pump up the jams and you'll reduce your perception of effort. You can run faster listening to music you like that has a high beats per minute.
Caffeine
Apparently an antagonist of adenosine which has a significant number of receptors in the brain that are responsible for sleep, memory, learning and cognition. Since caffeine occupies these receptors without actually activating them it is hypothesized that the perception of effort during endurance events is dampened and performance increases. An 11.2% improvement in performance was seen with a decreased perception of effort by using caffeine during running.
Self Talk
When one repeats positive messages to themselves its been shown to improve a test to exhaustion by almost 17%. So keep reminding yourself when you're running how awesome you're doing. Keep blocking out those negative thoughts. This is the main reason I race blind. I like to keep everything positive and I know from my personal experience that if I have GPS feedback on HR or pace that I'll freak out and start to have negative thoughts. By running blind I withhold that information from myself and thus keep those positive thoughts flowing.
Amplifiers of Perception of Effort (Factor 1)
Mental Fatigue
A study was conducted on cyclists that had to perform one of two simple tests. For a period of time prior to cycling the subjects had to state the color of the word. In group A, the color of the word matched the actual word (Word Blue was written in Blue ink), whereas the second group the word blue did not necessarily appear in the color blue. The second group was more mentally challenging, but in the grand scheme of mental tasks was not overly difficult. While the rate at which perception of effort increased equally, the starting point was significantly higher in the group who had to complete the “harder” mental task even though that task had no additional physical component. The harder mental task caused a decrease in performance by about 4% from the easier mental task. It is hypothesized that this harder mental task works in the same area of the brain as adenosine, which might explain the possible increase in perception of effort.
There was also another study similar to this one that put elites against normal cyclists. The small twist was adding in if the word was "red" it always had the answer of red regardless of the color of the word. So, it was like a third variable thrown at the cyclists. The elites were able to answer more words correctly, do it faster, and then afterwards had little to no difference between the easy task and hard task on its affect of a ride to exhaustion. Yet the normal person was slower on these tasks, got more wrong, and showed a large difference in how they responded on the cycle to exhaustion with after the easy task they performed better than after the hard task. So not only were the elite cyclists better cyclists, but they showed the ability to handle mental fatigue better than the normal cyclists.
So what does it mean for me and how can I use this information?
You can potentially decrease the perception of effort by:
-Listening to music you enjoy, makes you happy, and has a higher bpm.
-Use caffeine during exercise (I won’t do this one because caffeine gives me a headache).
-During the entire event use positive thinking. Consistently tell yourself how awesome you are and how awesome you are doing. If a negative thought comes in your head “Why did I sign up for this?” try to counter balance it with positive thoughts. Remember why you signed up for this. Remember how proud you are making someone in your life. Remember that you are rocking this!
-Reduce the amount of things you are thinking about prior to and during running. Set out your clothes in advance. Plan your driving route. Reduce your mental gymnastics by pre-planning as much as possible.
What about the other factors?
Potential Motivation
-One of my biggest motivators is trying to beat others. But something I’ve found for myself is this is self-dampened when there is a staggered start. It’s hard to know whether the person passing you is actually beating you or not because maybe they started ahead of you or behind you. But in a single start race it’s more likely when someone passes you they are actually head of you time wise as well. Are you going for that BQ? Are you going for a new PR? Do you have another race in three weeks and you're wiling to bag this one when it's not going well (a loss in motivation)?
Knowledge of Distance/Time to cover (Factor 3)
-This is hard to manipulate in an actual race because in almost all scenarios you usually know the duration/distance that is going to be covered.
Knowledge of Distance/Time remaining (Factor 4)
-I believe in running by effort and thus ignoring how you’ve been performing. I feel like in the past I have been overly negative during running when a mile split comes in at an unexpected slower pace. In this negative loop this causes me to start thinking about alternative finishing times. Then your goals start to slip away and your motivation wains. Without your motivation your perception of effort increases and makes everything feel harder than it would have been. As you can see I feel these are all connected in a cascade of events. To combat this, I ignore how I’ve been doing and just keep positive thoughts telling myself that I’m crushing it.
Previous experience/memory of perception of effort during exercise of varying intensity and duration (Factor 5)
-This one is physical and mental in my opinion. I believe this is where the training aspect of running comes in physically. The fitter you get the easier something feels. What was once tough is easier because your level of perception of effort has changed for that level of fitness.
-I follow this by trying to memorize what every run feels like. What does an easy run feel like? What does a marathon tempo feel like? What does a long run feel like? What does a full sprint feel like?
-Once you get to race day keep reminding yourself that this race is actually easier then some of your training runs. Keep telling yourself this is not that bad compared to that one training run you did.
Alright @roxymama how did I do?
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DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
Being this is my 9th marathon taper, I think the term I'll use is "prepared". I know I'll be excited to run less and finally get to race. I'll have doubts because for some odd physiological reason easy running suddenly becomes harder. I'll get stir-crazy because I'll question whether I can hit the goal paces. But I know what to expect, I expect all of those emotions. Thus, prepared. It'll be here before I know it, and that's exciting and drives me crazy.
It's shocking to me that when I started I ran 10 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 30 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 50 miles per week, and I was tired. Then 60 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 70 miles a week, and I was tired. But comparatively, I was never more tired than when I first started. I guarantee that the level of tiredness I felt was highest at 10 miles per week in the beginning. But comparing to it now when I run 70 miles per week, it's "easier" then it was when I started. A slow steady progression over 4 years and a solid training methodology has led me from then to now.
roxymama
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2015
Eureka!
So I've been going back and forth with @dis_or_dat about the science of running, improvement and training methodology in general. And through these conversations it has pushed me to learn and keep reading more to try and be able to keep answering all of her questions. This morning it just clicked for me. I think to an extent it all finally starts to make sense to me. So, thus without further ado my best attempt to explain running:
I'm going to start at the top and work my way down. I'm also not going to go into full detail when I don't think it's necessary for others to be able to get the big picture.
VO2max
There are several factors that determine how fast you can finish a race. So let's start at the top. VO2max can be considered your pure speed number. It's essentially the maximum amount of oxygen your body can utilize at any point in time. So, ok what does the number mean to me? Well by using your VO2max you can figure out your top speed (and yes you can run a little faster than VO2max for a very short duration). Knowing your top speed allows you to get an idea how fast you can run in a race. For example, my VO2max is 64. How did I get that number? Well there's three ways:
1) Get a lab test. It's expensive but the most accurate value.
2) Use a Garmin. These use heart rate variability data from the device to determine VO2max. Garmin's scientific paper has shown that the values received from heart rate variability have a strong correlation to the lab test, but it isn't perfect. But for most everyone's purpose, it's good enough.
3) Lastly you can use your resting heart rate and age. This is the most crude method. It can give you a general idea, but it isn't nearly as grounded in good science as options 1 and 2. I use the following website: link.
Alright, so I know my VO2max now. What can that tell me? Well using your VO2max can let us know what your vV02 is or your maximal velocity at VO2max. The calculation is:
vVO2 = 2.8859+0.0686*(VO2max-29)
This value outputs velocity in meters/second. So, you'll want to convert to mph to make it easier to work with.
mph = vVO2 in m/s * 2.23694
With your vVO2 in mph you can convert to pace by dividing that number by 60. Hence your vVO2 pace in minutes.decimals.
Alright, enough math, what's next. Well by multiplying that number by different percentages it gives you a pace for different %VO2max.
View attachment 191091
Alright, alright that's enough math already. Get to the point! Shouldn't we just line everyone up in race and say what's your VO2max and hand out awards that way? I mean VO2max is the determinant for pure speed right?
It's true, but.... there are still other players. It's why on the table above I've got ranges of predictions for half marathon and marathon finishing zones. The VO2max should be thought of as your cap. It alone won't decide the final finishing time, but you won't be able to finish faster than it.
Lactate Threshold
Lactate gets a bad wrap. People say why do you slow down, well it's because you crossed the lactate threshold and had too much lactic acid in your muscles. That's not necessarily the case. Lactate is a good and easily testable biochemical marker. It happens to correlate with the increase in fatigue that people associate with the lactate threshold. But Lactate itself is not the bad guy, it's just a marker that correlates well with the bad guys which aren't nearly as easy to test. So, let's call the bad guys "fatigue". The "fatigue" is a cocktail of many other items that together cause you to have the feeling you want to slow down. So, then what's the lactate threshold. Well as your pace increases you get closer to this magical pace that goes from "I could run this forever" to "oh god this hurts so much". It's the point at which you accumulate "fatigue" too quickly and your body can't flush it out of your system fast enough. So, then this "fatigue" gets in the way and causes you to not produce as much energy and thus you get the feeling like you need to slow down. So, what's the graph look like:
View attachment 191096
As you can see you can be running along and as long as you stay slower than the crutch point (the lactate threshold), then you'll be able to maintain that pace for quite some time. However, once you pass that magical threshold well then you start to crash and burn because you've accumulated more fatigue than your body can clear. And the increase is dramatic once you pass the lactate threshold. This goes to show why pacing is so darn important. The matter of 10-15 seconds could be the difference between being below the lactate threshold and running forever and being above the running threshold and hitting the "wall". Different kind of "wall" then the glycogen depletion wall as this one is fatigue induced and happens much more often to people when they refer to hitting the "wall" and slowing down at the end of the race.
This is why that first mile or so of pacing is so important for racing. You're feeling good after your taper and you throw out a mile split about 10-15 seconds faster than your goal pace in the beginning of the race. Well then it's possible you've passed the lactate threshold pace and induced a higher rate of fatigue build-up then you'll be capable of clearing. You won't notice in the beginning of the race because well it's a pace you can maintain for 50-60 minutes, but you'll definitely know it at the end of the half marathon/marathon when you start to seriously slow down.
So then here's the big question? What's my lactate threshold? If I knew that pace I would just try and stay below it. So give me your fancy calculation to figure that out. Well here it is:
Lactate threshold = ?
Simply put, there isn't a calculation for it. Everyone is an individual and thus this value is highly variable. But there are ways you can figure it out.
1) Get a lab test. It's not nearly as expensive generally as the VO2max test. (*but there's a reason why unless you have easy access to this all the time, then it won't prove very useful)
2) Use a Garmin. Some of the newer Garmins have a feature that helps determine lactate threshold. I have not read the white paper on this process so I don't know the reasoning behind it so I can't speak to how well it correlates to the actual number. This in my opinion though would be a better option if it proves to be accurate.
3) Run lactate threshold workouts and see whether you can complete them at the pace you've chosen.
So if you choose option 3, then where do I start with a lactate threshold pace. Try a pace that you can maintain for about an hour (60 min). It's a starting point, but doesn't necessarily mean it's your actual LT pace. So,
If you run a 5K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 20:00 min/mile.
If you run a 10K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 9:40 min/mile.
If you run a 15K in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 6:27 min/mile.
If you run a HM in 60 min, then your LT pace is around a 4:35 min/mile.
The purpose of a lactate threshold workout is to induce the body's response to fatigue build-up and to train it to clear it more efficiently and to be able to tolerate what it's like to run in those conditions. Dependent on the desired race distance you can do LT workouts at longer or shorter durations. For most of us, we do HM and M races so the interval length is typically 8-12 minutes and builds up to 20-30 minute intervals. And the total time of the running intervals is somewhere around 40-50 minutes. The rest intervals are usually about half the time it takes to do the interval. So if the run interval is 10 minutes, then the rest interval can be 5 minutes or less. Playing with the distance of the interval as well as the duration of the rest interval elicits different responses to improving the Lactate Threshold.
In the end, to determine whether the workout is at LT pace is simply "could you complete the workout". If you could complete the workout at the pace through all of the running intervals, then you were likely at or below your LT. More importantly, if you find that you fail to maintain the goal pace throughout the workout, then your LT was likely slower and the next time you need to back off. Here's the catch, depending on the workout you could conceivably complete it at a faster than LT pace, but if you do that consistently during training you miss out on the intent of the workout. You end up working on anaerobic power and VO2max type benefits and less on lactate threshold benefits.
Lastly, here comes the *. Your LT pace can improve and should improve over time. So unless you choose to get a lab test every 8-12 weeks to re-assess your LT pace it's best to use option 2 or 3 as a guideline.
Here's the thing that at first blush didn't make sense to me about LT pace. Clearly someone who is running a 5K at LT pace is running slower than a person running a HM at LT pace. But what didn't make sense to me is that an elite person could run a 5K at faster than LT pace and yet one normal person's LT pace could be faster than the other person's relative race pace. It confused me. So elite people run the LT pace at a relatively slower pace compared to a normal person? Normal person LT pace is between 10K-15K and Elite is between 15K-HM? Wouldn't it make sense that the elite person's LT pace is faster in relationship to their races?
Well here's the catch. The normal person and elite person might not be running equivalent %VO2max for each of their respective races. So a normal person might run a 5K at 84% VO2max (thus 84% maximum velocity) and HM at 73% VO2max and yet an elite person can run a HM at 90% VO2max. Thus, while it might seem at first blush that the normal person gets to run at a faster relative pace for LT pace (5K vs HM). It might be that the elite person's capability to run at LT is actually higher to their relative %VO2max. So don't necessarily look at LT paces relative to race times but more-so relative to your %VO2max.
So when one suggests running at 10K pace or HM pace for LT pace it's hard to say what's right for one person will be right for another.
Alright, so I've finally figure out my LT pace. Let's say it's 10:00 min/mile. Well as long as I stay slower than that I can run forever. Perfect, thanks for your help. So we'll just line everyone up by VO2max and by LT pace then we'll know how we should divy out the medals at each race. Well, not exactly. Wait, what? There's one more thing to consider....
Running Economy
Here's the kicker. Even within a day your Lactate Threshold is not a constant. There is no set pace that will be your magical point at which you start to accumulate more fatigue than you can clear for an entire duration run. This is an important point and one I was unclear existed until recently. I re-read Pfitz's book and in the book he states that lactate threshold can change based on running economy. This means that while you can test your lactate threshold to be 10:00 it doesn't have to stay at 10:00 for the entire run or from day to day. WAIT WHAT?!?!
Now wait a second? You just said I can run forever... Yea I know what I said. It was to help explain the concept of Lactate threshold, but there is one more piece to the puzzle.
The ability to stay in that flat section of the lactate threshold is dependent on your running economy. Alright, so what's the running economy piece of the puzzle. It's the ability of your body to use oxygen efficiently for the purpose of creating energy. Well that seems simple enough. How can I work on running economy?
Well, that's were the magic long run comes in. By running for extended distances/durations you teach your body how to become more efficient and economical at using the energy it creates (and the processes to create that energy). By running long distances you learn the appropriate running techniques. Where do my arms need to be? Where do my eyes need to be looking? What about my shoulders? Foot strike? Cadence? etc. These different things play a role in how efficient you are. The longer you can remain efficient the longer your LT pace stays the same (*or improves?) during the long duration run. So by doing the long run it teaches you to become more efficient.
But doing the long run at the right pace is important to elicit this learning process. If you constantly move past the LT pace or run too close to it on your long runs you constantly teach your body how to survive the long run, but you likely lose your running efficiency while running and struggle to teach your body the necessary biomechanics to stay running for 3-4-5-6 hours. So pace and duration play an important role in the long run process.
So what does running economy mean in the bigger picture? Well, if you have good running economy then your 10:00 LT pace will stay there for longer. The less you become economical, then that LT pace could become 10:05, then 10:15, then 10:30. So you won't be able to find out your LT pace and just run with it because over time and duration of a single run it can change.
So all of this partly stemmed from a previous conversation about why Hansons recommends LT paces for HM plans at HM-10 seconds or 10K pace and for M plans at M-10 seconds. Potentially, it's because the induced fatigue level from cumulative fatigue going into the strength workouts may not be equivalent between the HM plans and the M plans. Thus, the LT pace might be slower in the M plan because you're more tired (and thus have more fatigue going into the run) then the HM plan. But the elicited benefits between the HM strength pace and M strength pace might actually be equivalent even though the relative pace against race paces is different. In addition, %VO2max also still plays a role so again it's not just that easy.
So what's the strategy I can take from this? Well, this helps explain why starting off too fast can be disastrous. It helps explain why VO2max or LT pace isn't the final determining factors in race performance. It helps explain why a LT pace can be different between a normal person and an elite when the normal is at 10K pace and the elite at HM pace. So potentially being "slower" relative to your race pace doesn't immediately mean your LT pace is worse than another person, because you could be running at a higher % VO2max comparative to another person. Lastly, it explains why if you stay just below your LT pace it won't allow you to run indefinitely because your running economy dictates how long the LT pace stays constant.
Alright, that's all I got at the moment. Go ahead and give me your critique and point out the errors. I'd love to hear differing opinions because hearing other views will help make our understanding more powerful.
I'm a salesperson, not a scientist...but I read this whole thing and you explained it well.
My first thought was that maybe I should figure out my vo2max one of these days since it comes up so frequently.
My odd thought after was "wouldn't it be interesting to calculate a persons threshold for mental fatigue or strength, etc". Take the same vo2max and LT etc between two "twin-like" people and then factor in the person with the higher drive/mental stamina/stubbornness...heck even lower threshold for pain or fatigue.
I'm just rambling now.
Would that fit into the economies section?
This is all very I interesting to me. It's why I love the Olympics because I love thinking about how these supreme athletes can do what they do.
Being this is my 9th marathon taper, I think the term I'll use is "prepared". I know I'll be excited to run less and finally get to race. I'll have doubts because for some odd physiological reason easy running suddenly becomes harder. I'll get stir-crazy because I'll question whether I can hit the goal paces. But I know what to expect, I expect all of those emotions. Thus, prepared. It'll be here before I know it, and that's exciting and drives me crazy.
It's shocking to me that when I started I ran 10 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 30 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 50 miles per week, and I was tired. Then 60 miles a week, and I was tired. Then 70 miles a week, and I was tired. But comparatively, I was never more tired than when I first started. I guarantee that the level of tiredness I felt was highest at 10 miles per week in the beginning. But comparing to it now when I run 70 miles per week, it's "easier" then it was when I started. A slow steady progression over 4 years and a solid training methodology has led me from then to now.
You are so right about a 60 mile month now feeling better than my old 20 mile months. I used to feel "down" on myself for not running farther sooner, but this makes me feel better for the slower ramp up. Plus the "tired" now is like a strong/muscley/relaxed tired as opposed to the sore/near-death/cranky tired of days past
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
Ahh yes, this would be the Psychobiological Model explanation. I'll amend the post to include this.
roxymama
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2015
Ummmm...yes...that's exactly what I meant to say
dis_or_dat
DIS Veteran
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- Jan 20, 2016
Yaaaaaaay! 
I've been waiting all day for this. Reading this with a nice glass of wine. Thank you for laying this out in a clear manner and also listening to all my questions! I think I will be making changes for my last strength run, hopefully I can find a flattish piece of land otherwise treadmill it is! I'm actually excited for strength on Tuesday! 
I've been waiting all day for this. Reading this with a nice glass of wine. Thank you for laying this out in a clear manner and also listening to all my questions! I think I will be making changes for my last strength run, hopefully I can find a flattish piece of land otherwise treadmill it is! I'm actually excited for strength on Tuesday!
roxymama
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2015
Thumbs up! You are crushing it!
I do feel like those "perfect nirvana runs" are the ones where you don't need all the mental "helpers" and now I realize it's likely because they happened when I didn't get to those fatigue points. So that's why we train right...to limit our fatigue so we can limit how much we "need" the mental help. I'm no scientists but I still like understanding "how this all works"
Thanks for taking my late night odd suggestion and running with it
I do feel like those "perfect nirvana runs" are the ones where you don't need all the mental "helpers" and now I realize it's likely because they happened when I didn't get to those fatigue points. So that's why we train right...to limit our fatigue so we can limit how much we "need" the mental help. I'm no scientists but I still like understanding "how this all works"
Thanks for taking my late night odd suggestion and running with it
BuckeyeBama
You are stronger than you think.
- Joined
- May 29, 2013
In my running "career", I have looked for something that I refer to as "cardiac creep", and I watch for it on every long run. When I notice that my heart rate is beginning to climb in spite of maintaining the same pace in the same conditions, I realize that I have crossed a threshold somewhere and depending on how close to the finish of that run I might be, I either keep going at that pace to see how my body responds or slow down so I can be sure to finish strong.
I think that the science can be really confusing to most people, which is why the maxims are so important. Running maxims allow everyone to improve without needing to understand why.
Great write-up! I really enjoyed it.
I think that the science can be really confusing to most people, which is why the maxims are so important. Running maxims allow everyone to improve without needing to understand why.
Great write-up! I really enjoyed it.
ZellyB
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2010
Loved the write-up! I'll certainly say that I'm not motivated enough to figure out all that VO2max and LT stuff for myself, but I enjoy reading the science behind it.
The psychological motivational stuff is very interesting as well and certainly something I understand much better.
I do recall reading an article somewhere about mental fatigue leading up to a race. There was some study done where prior to a race, a group spent time looking over the course and thinking through running the race in their mind and then some other group that did not allow themselves to spend time thinking about the actual race or the course before running the race. The group that didn't think about the race and the course did better. I don't recall a lot of the specifics from the article nor their conclusions about why this was the case, but ever since, I've tried to really force myself not to dwell too much on the race in the day or two leading up to it. Not sure that I've noticed a difference
, but still an interesting thought.
The psychological motivational stuff is very interesting as well and certainly something I understand much better.
I do recall reading an article somewhere about mental fatigue leading up to a race. There was some study done where prior to a race, a group spent time looking over the course and thinking through running the race in their mind and then some other group that did not allow themselves to spend time thinking about the actual race or the course before running the race. The group that didn't think about the race and the course did better. I don't recall a lot of the specifics from the article nor their conclusions about why this was the case, but ever since, I've tried to really force myself not to dwell too much on the race in the day or two leading up to it. Not sure that I've noticed a difference
, but still an interesting thought.
DopeyBadger
Imagathoner
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
Good glad we're in agreement!Yaaaaaaay!
Thank you for asking me these questions. It's pushed me to continue to do more reading when I originally thought I had a good grasp of everything, but because of you it "clicked" in my head. It's allowed me to realize why balance in a training plan is so important. As well as how to better custom tailor training plans for people based on their previous training, race experiences, and goals.
Thumbs up! You are crushing it!
I do feel like those "perfect nirvana runs" are the ones where you don't need all the mental "helpers" and now I realize it's likely because they happened when I didn't get to those fatigue points. So that's why we train right...to limit our fatigue so we can limit how much we "need" the mental help. I'm no scientists but I still like understanding "how this all works"
Thanks for taking my late night odd suggestion and running with it
LOL, thanks!
That is EXACTLY why we train. To keep limiting fatigue and to continuously push back that magical point further and further away. Funny enough I actually went to bed. And then thought, maybe I'll check my email one more time and saw you posted. Read the post and I was like, "UMMMM.. . I'm never going to go to sleep if I don't answer her question because it will keep me up all night thinking of how to best explain my thoughts on perception of effort and motivation." So, thanks to you!I think that's a perfect example. You've found a marker that can be used during the run that can signal changes occurring that you might not yet be aware of based on perception of effort. I like that thinking!
Loved the write-up! I'll certainly say that I'm not motivated enough to figure out all that VO2max and LT stuff for myself, but I enjoy reading the science behind it.
The psychological motivational stuff is very interesting as well and certainly something I understand much better.
I do recall reading an article somewhere about mental fatigue leading up to a race. There was some study done where prior to a race, a group spent time looking over the course and thinking through running the race in their mind and then some other group that did not allow themselves to spend time thinking about the actual race or the course before running the race. The group that didn't think about the race and the course did better. I don't recall a lot of the specifics from the article nor their conclusions about why this was the case, but ever since, I've tried to really force myself not to dwell too much on the race in the day or two leading up to it. Not sure that I've noticed a difference
Thanks! For the VO2max all you need is your age and resting HR. Plug it into this calculator, and you've got a crude idea. If you get the crude VO2max number, I'll do the math calculations for you. As for the numbers themselves think of it like this:
5K pace or faster = VO2max work (improves speed cap)
10K through HM pace = Lactate Threshold work (improves speed at which you can run "forever")
Marathon pace through Easy pace = Running Economy (improves the ability to maintain speed for longer durations)
Motivation, goals, music, blind running = Psychobiological Model (improves the ability to maintain pace after you've crossed the LT)
As long as your training balances these various ranges, then you'll continue to maximize your potential. Leave any one out and you'll realize why something might be lacking.
I definitely remember that study as well. It goes with the line of thinking that you have a maximal thinking capacity. Like glycogen depletion you walk into an event with a set number of thoughts available per unit time before you start to lose track. By minimizing the thoughts/stress prior to the event, you ensure you go into the event with full mental capacity. It's another reason I think blind running is helpful to some. By removing the feedback we have less things to stress/worry/think about during the run and instead can just allow the miles to click away.
cburnett11
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
@dis_or_dat First off thanks for opening that can of worms with DopeyBadger! That was a nice article he put together and apparently it's your fault he wrote it and/or he was motivated by some conversations with you.
All kidding aside, it was a good read and thanks for any input you had in having him put all these thoughts and research down in a thread.Second, I'm following a Hanson plan too. I think I've seen you post that you are doing a similar plan. For my speedwork I began using a flattish surface and that seemed to work well. I started off doing tempos on my normal route, but I never felt too good about trying to maintain a steady effort with the hills I have in my neighborhood. Plus I'm doing Chicago which is known as a very flat course. So midway through my training, I decided I would move my tempo runs to a flat loop. That worked very well right off the bat for me. I also feel like this better simulates what I'll experience in Chicago... same muscle use the whole race... no significant ups/downs. Anyways, at the later stages of my speedwork I moved over to this same loop (previously I had been using a school parking lot for speed). So now I'm doing 2 days/week at this same "boring" place... a .81 mile oval. But it's really good for strength and tempo runs. I can warmup there, quicken my pace, and fairly easily settle into my prescribed pace while zoning out on a flat oval. It's much easier to settle in without the elevation change. Given that I can handle 12 miles of this boredom, I think I'm going to go ahead and do my 2nd 16-mile long run here on Sunday. That should give me a fairly close representation of what it will feel like running a flat marathon.
So if you can find a flat piece of ground somewhere in your area, I highly recommend you give it a try for your strength workouts. You may even decide to move your tempo runs there too.
dis_or_dat
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2016
@dis_or_dat First off thanks for opening that can of worms with DopeyBadger! That was a nice article he put together and apparently it's your fault he wrote it and/or he was motivated by some conversations with you.
Second, I'm following a Hanson plan too. I think I've seen you post that you are doing a similar plan. For my speedwork I began using a flattish surface and that seemed to work well. I started off doing tempos on my normal route, but I never felt too good about trying to maintain a steady effort with the hills I have in my neighborhood. Plus I'm doing Chicago which is known as a very flat course. So midway through my training, I decided I would move my tempo runs to a flat loop. That worked very well right off the bat for me. I also feel like this better simulates what I'll experience in Chicago... same muscle use the whole race... no significant ups/downs. Anyways, at the later stages of my speedwork I moved over to this same loop (previously I had been using a school parking lot for speed). So now I'm doing 2 days/week at this same "boring" place... a .81 mile oval. But it's really good for strength and tempo runs. I can warmup there, quicken my pace, and fairly easily settle into my prescribed pace while zoning out on a flat oval. It's much easier to settle in without the elevation change. Given that I can handle 12 miles of this boredom, I think I'm going to go ahead and do my 2nd 16-mile long run here on Sunday. That should give me a fairly close representation of what it will feel like running a flat marathon.
So if you can find a flat piece of ground somewhere in your area, I highly recommend you give it a try for your strength workouts. You may even decide to move your tempo runs there too.
Haha, thanks @cburnett11 ! Sounds like you're doing the marathon plan? Actually I was having a lot of problems with my strength training and @DopeyBadger noticed this on strava. Man, strava keeps you honest.
So that's when the never ending questions (on my end) started. I'm very thankful he's been patient with me! Anyways, with his post I realize I've been running them too fast, which is why I couldn't keep pace for more than half of my strength. I mentioned strength on Tuesday because I'm actually on vacation and I think the hotel we'll be at is on a hill - so I'm going to ask for a running trail that's flat there and if they don't have one, I'll have to use their treadmill. I can't imagine trying speed/strength on hills! (I'm also a wimp and do tempo on flat surfaces even though hills are recommended)
FFigawi
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2009
Cardiac drift is a real thing. Lots of articles online about what causes it and how to deal with it when running or cycling.
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