Time in between last "long run" and Marathon

[ZellyB]

I'm doing the Galloway training program for the Marathon in January. In setting up my schedule, I have myself running 26 miles on December 22. This gives me three full weeks of lighter runs (7 mile long runs) before the actual marathon.

My husband was talking to me about this and saying that it's a shame the first time you actually run 26 miles you don't really get anything for it and I should consider doing an actual local marathon around that time instead. So, there is a local marathon that's on a pretty easy flat course here, but it is scheduled for December 30. That would only give me two weeks in between that run and the WDW Marathon. I think that's too short of a recovery time and I don't want to sabotage myself for the Disney race. But, I do see my husband's point that if I'm running 26 miles anyway, it'd be nice to do it in an event rather than on my own.

So, input from more experienced runners? Is that too close of a time frame to run a marathon and then turn around and run another? Thanks for any feedback.

 

[JCH]

I'm doing the Galloway training program for the Marathon in January. In setting up my schedule, I have myself running 26 miles on December 22. This gives me three full weeks of lighter runs (7 mile long runs) before the actual marathon.

My husband was talking to me about this and saying that it's a shame the first time you actually run 26 miles you don't really get anything for it and I should consider doing an actual local marathon around that time instead. So, there is a local marathon that's on a pretty easy flat course here, but it is scheduled for December 30. That would only give me two weeks in between that run and the WDW Marathon. I think that's too short of a recovery time and I don't want to sabotage myself for the Disney race. But, I do see my husband's point that if I'm running 26 miles anyway, it'd be nice to do it in an event rather than on my own.

So, input from more experienced runners? Is that too close of a time frame to run a marathon and then turn around and run another? Thanks for any feedback.

But you aren't running a full marathon! It's that .2 that makes all the difference.

Seriously, though, I am following the Galloway plan and doing my first Marathon at WDW. However, I am planning to only go up to 20 to 23 miles instead of 26. Part of this is because I am doing TOT and it is easier to fit in if I just start with 12 after I'm done with that and work my way up to 20 or 23.

I really want my FIRST Marathon to be at Disney. I wouldn't want that feeling of being a Marathoner to be a some random local not magical place. If you really want to do your first 26 at Disney, then just do 25 miles on the training day, or even repeat 23. You'll still be fine on race day.

Please note: just my opinion as someone who wants to have that magical feeling at the 20th anniversary of the Disney World Marathon. You only get to become a marathoner once. I am in no way running expert.

 

[Reep]

I'm doing the Galloway training program for the Marathon in January. In setting up my schedule, I have myself running 26 miles on December 22. This gives me three full weeks of lighter runs (7 mile long runs) before the actual marathon.

Does Galloway's method have you running 26 miles three weeks out? That seems like a lot.

My first several marathons I did a few (1-3) 20 mile runs, but never more than that. Currently, with an advanced training program I do 4-6 runs of 20-23 miles, but never more than 23. I would strongly recommend not running that far right before your race. I think your chance of getting injured is much too high.

As to the timing, many elite coaches say 18 days before the event it the optimal time to taper. For most of us 21 days (3 weeks) is easier to work in. I know a few people that do 2 week tapers. I do 3, but my PR (2:54) came after a forced (flu) 4-week taper. I would not go less than three unless you were experienced enough to know of some benefit.

Finally, "taper" usually means a slight regression in miles. Typically long runs are something like (3 weeks out) 20, (2 weeks out) 15, (1 week out) 10, and then the race. Going from 26 to 7 does not sound like a typical taper. The 26 could leave you injured and the dropping to 7 for three weeks could leave you underprepared.

Check with the Galloway program (or Higdon) and see what they have you doing for long runs and your taper. Either way, I would not recommend doing an official marathon two weeks before another one.

 

[ZellyB]

Good points in both cases. I definitely like the idea of Disney being my first. And I had debated about just not doing 26 but something a bit less. And, yeah I just feel like only 2 weeks in between just would be pushing it too much.

Galloway actually does have you do the full distance before the race. I know that other methods don't do that, but his does call for it. I just worked off our local groups schedule for the folks running the full in November and worked it backward for me from the WDW date. So, using that schedule that's how it worked out. I'm not sure on the whole taper thing, but they just listed those other runs as 7 milers. When I look on Galloway's training schedule on the RunDisney site, it also shows 26 miles on the weekend of the 22nd and then just 6 miles for the next two weekends.

 

[Reep]

Good points in both cases. I definitely like the idea of Disney being my first. And I had debated about just not doing 26 but something a bit less. And, yeah I just feel like only 2 weeks in between just would be pushing it too much.

Galloway actually does have you do the full distance before the race. I know that other methods don't do that, but his does call for it. I just worked off our local groups schedule for the folks running the full in November and worked it backward for me from the WDW date. So, using that schedule that's how it worked out. I'm not sure on the whole taper thing, but they just listed those other runs as 7 milers. When I look on Galloway's training schedule on the RunDisney site, it also shows 26 miles on the weekend of the 22nd and then just 6 miles for the next two weekends.

Well, who am I to argue with the man (met him once in Boston, very nice). The 26 to 7 is quite unusual, but different things work for different people. You certainly don't need to run 26 before the race, and I agree with others that there is something really magical about hitting those new distances for the first time in the race. Even more so at WDW where the last mile is around Epcot lake.

 

[cewait]

You will find my opinion on a 26 mile training run all over the forum. I am not a big believer in 26 miles in a training run for most folks.

Saying that, Jeff's thoughts are that race day is stressful enough without the added 10k surprise from 20 up to 26.2. Mentally, the race starts near the point of your longest run. So for a first time runner, it makes some sense to run 26 in training. Couple that with the 1970's thought process of over-distance training... it works.

For the OP's original questions... should I run a marathon on New Year's weekend?

NO

It is kind of the same as a training run but supported. The issue is that folks tend to not run a race like a training run and end up more fatigued than they would from a training run. Couple that with the 'longer than most other plans' longest run, you really need the three week taper. Today it seems like a long time. If you are nursing a nagging injury or having issues just keeping the time commitment, you will love the taper period. In all seriousness, the body gains strength from recovery periods so as a first time marathoner, you really want to keep to the taper lined out in Jeff's plan. The longest I would run New Year's weekend is in the 12-16 mile range.

 

[ironz]

You will find my opinion on a 26 mile training run all over the forum. I am not a big believer in 26 miles in a training run for most folks.

Saying that, Jeff's thoughts are that race day is stressful enough without the added 10k surprise from 20 up to 26.2. Mentally, the race starts near the point of your longest run. So for a first time runner, it makes some sense to run 26 in training. Couple that with the 1970's thought process of over-distance training... it works.

For the OP's original questions... should I run a marathon on New Year's weekend?

NO

It is kind of the same as a training run but supported. The issue is that folks tend to not run a race like a training run and end up more fatigued than they would from a training run. Couple that with the 'longer than most other plans' longest run, you really need the three week taper. Today it seems like a long time. If you are nursing a nagging injury or having issues just keeping the time commitment, you will love the taper period. In all seriousness, the body gains strength from recovery periods so as a first time marathoner, you really want to keep to the taper lined out in Jeff's plan. The longest I would run New Year's weekend is in the 12-16 mile range.

Hey, Charles...How's it going?
I agree with you that 26 miles is not really necessary before a full, and in some people (slower, older people like me), the recovery from such an effort outweighs the benefits. For that reason, I am leaning away from the Galloway training plan (though I will run/walk) and towards one of Higdon's less intense plans (run 4x a week, cross train 2 days). I like the amounts of his mileage build. Your thoughts?

Background: As you may recall, I do triathlon. And did a 26 mile "long run" (with plenty o' walking) at IM Canada just 9 days ago....so there is definitely some base already built from the last 6 months of training. But I can't say that was a "good" long run...terribly slow...but it was certainly some time on my feet! I have at least 1 half marathon (everything is at a "training pace" for me) this fall, and could put another marathon in along the way, but since I just answered this in the first part...why? Confidence building would be the only thing. (because my distance tris all sucked)

OK...so since that was scattered thinking:
1. I agree that a marathon isn't necessary before Mickey day, but I may consider one, depending on how the recovery would go (it's in October, so plenty of time).
2. Wondering your thoughts on Higdon's plans? Or maybe the Penguin...reading his book now.
3. Anything to regain confidence after a bad long distance tri season? (worst 13.1 and 26.2 segments in my life this year)

Hugs!

 

[cewait]

Hey, Charles...How's it going?
I agree with you that 26 miles is not really necessary before a full, and in some people (slower, older people like me), the recovery from such an effort outweighs the benefits. For that reason, I am leaning away from the Galloway training plan (though I will run/walk) and towards one of Higdon's less intense plans (run 4x a week, cross train 2 days). I like the amounts of his mileage build. Your thoughts?

Background: As you may recall, I do triathlon. And did a 26 mile "long run" (with plenty o' walking) at IM Canada just 9 days ago....so there is definitely some base already built from the last 6 months of training. But I can't say that was a "good" long run...terribly slow...but it was certainly some time on my feet! I have at least 1 half marathon (everything is at a "training pace" for me) this fall, and could put another marathon in along the way, but since I just answered this in the first part...why? Confidence building would be the only thing. (because my distance tris all sucked)

OK...so since that was scattered thinking:
1. I agree that a marathon isn't necessary before Mickey day, but I may consider one, depending on how the recovery would go (it's in October, so plenty of time).
2. Wondering your thoughts on Higdon's plans? Or maybe the Penguin...reading his book now.
3. Anything to regain confidence after a bad long distance tri season? (worst 13.1 and 26.2 segments in my life this year)

Hugs!

Was thinking of you the other day.... I was wondering what race you had on schedule.


A finish is better than a non finish by far. This was sad year for IM Canada as the original RD passed away late last year.

Can’t say that another race would not be a bad thing…… BUT, you would really want to find an event that will bolster the brain rather than beat you to a pulp again.

Coming from your background, Galloway seems to be a back step for a confidence builder. (OK, please no stones from the masses. Jeff’s plans get thousands of runners to the line but the focus is on the long run rather than intensity… here is a case where the engine can go long but needs a tune up).

I honestly do not know what the Peunguin’s plan contains since they pulled most all references off the web. I do know the Jenny Hadfield is the brains behind the plan and she is a solid coach. The little that I know of the newer program is that it is kind of a Higdon lite program. (but that is just my opinion based on the few weeks that are open for review and then comparing half to half with Higdon)

I would not hesitate to try the Higdon plan. The only thing you may want to do is pull either the Wednesday or Saturday run out. There comes a time when we all have to start dropping a day off the run. Saying that, Jenny's plan may actually be better.

You may also want to look at the Hanson’s training plan. Their plan is a lot less taxing on the long runs but much more intense on the weekdays. I found it a great plan to fail to after I bailed on my last IM effort. The only thing I do differently from their plan is cut days. I run 3 days a week. Tuesday is a strength (hill) run and Thursday is a speed session. I will throw in a few longer tempo runs once November hits on Wednesday or Friday. I mix in 2-3 cycle sessions into this mix as well as 2-3 lifting sessions. It’s an overall balanced plan that hits the entire body. I first started on this plan coming out of IM FL training and did not want to run more than the 3 hour runs in my plan. I found that this worked well with the fitness level I had then.

Otherwise, I think I would spend a little time just recovering. You have been on the go with intensity for a while and pulling back for 4-5 weeks will do the body good. Even with that pull back you will have more than enough time to be ready for a nice January run.

 

[ironz]

Thanks!
The Higdon plan I am looking at is the Novice 2. I know I am not a novice, but the amount of miles and the degree of "build" through the program looks the most manageable. Off on Monday and Friday, run easy on Tuesday and Thursday, quality run on Wednesday, and long run on Saturday, with cross training (bike recovery for me!) on Sunday. The Intermediate is more running, and I think that would tip me over an edge towards injury. I wasn't running a lot of miles (up to 20/week) before Ironman anyway (part of the slowness problem), so I won't want to do a program that assumes 25+ miles/week is my starting point.

I don't love the Galloway program....I just don't see how doing only 2 very short runs during the week and then building the long run is very good. I would rather disperse my mileage more through the week. Looks like Hanson plan also builds up the mileage all through the week, as well... I have a calendar at home that I have all the plans written out on to compare side by side.
Penguin's run/walk program is a little conservative to me...the run plan isn't too bad. 2 days of cross-training a week (Tuesday and Friday), easy run on Monday, quality run on Wednesday, base run or rest on Thursday, and long run on Saturday, up to two 20 milers.

Yep...end of an era for IMC...I was proud to high five Graham Fraser at the end. The Ironman situation in North America wouldn't be what it is today without him. I hope the Challenge series does the town of Penticton right. And my last IM for a while....I really stopped loving the long distance, the long hot summer training, and the stress...and I just wasn't very good at it, and getting worse, which also affected my short course races. So, I'll still do 1/2 iron and shorter, and work on my goal of doing a tri (any distance, so long as it is a S/B/R event) in each of the states. 15 down, 35 to go.

And I'm looking forward to Goofy. No trapeze classes before this one! LOL

I think I can wait a bit and see how training is going before I decide half or full for that marathon option in October. Part of me wants it to remind myself that I have not *really* become a 7.5 hour marathoner (IMC was bad...really, I was run/walking and not just walking!). But if I'll hurt myself, then it won't have been worth it.

Hope you are well...

 

[ZellyB]

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'm definitely not going to run the 26 for that weekend race and may stop short of going the full 26 even in a training run. I'll see how the 20 and 23 mile runs feel and then decide on how long to make the last long run.

 

[johde]

Zelly, I have one of Galloway's older books and the last 2 long runs are listed as 22-23, and 24-26. I haven't done a full marathon yet, I'm finishing training for my 6th half, but bumping up 2 miles at a time seems less intimidating and doing a 20, 22, 24, then 26.2 on race day. With regards to your original question, I had a similar thing happen my with spring half marathon. I was doing a 14 mile long run the day before the local half marathon and 2 weeks before my "goal" half marathon. I decided not to use the race as a supported training run for fear of over pushing and sabatoging my race 2 weeks later.