This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[John VN]

Everybody should watch the Court TV Program --- "Caught In Providence" where many drivers insist that they stopped before turning right on red and even after viewing the video of them NOT STOPPING they still insist that they stopped.

Being in shock, and I am certain the GF was, IMO his first reaction would be denial and --- "BUT THE WINDOW LOOKED CLOSED"

 

[kaytieeldr]

I read that he put her down near a railing in a play area, and the girl turned to lean on what should have been a closed window (all the other panes in the play area were closed), and went out. The question is, why was there an open window in a play area for children?

From now to stern:
Spa
Hot tubs
Pool
Pool bar
Restaurants on port and starboard
Windjammer Cafe
Whirlpools/hot tubs
H20 Zone splash

The spa and the restaurants are indoors.
The pool and accompanying features are outdoors

There is deck space along both sides of the pool area at least as wide as a two way street, that have lounge chairs lined up all the way along the windows, as well as some scattered tables and chairs.

the average 18 month old is just over 2.5 feet tall.
the Windows at that level do not open. They cannot be opened. There is no mechanism to open them except to remove the window.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Same day we went into the bank and the woman parked next to us left her kids alone in the car. The oldest, about 10, looked afraid.

That mother was luck. This https://www.kmov.com/news/watch-una...cle_0e661940-af06-11e9-86c6-a32a340685c7.html was on my local news.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Everybody should watch the Court TV Program --- "Caught In Providence" where many drivers insist that they stopped before turning right on red and even after viewing the video of them NOT STOPPING they still insist that they stopped.

Nobody stops. Red light, stop sign, sign specifying "right on red after stop". I think even non-emergency public safety vehicles.

Everybody slows down. That's not the same. I've told this joke before, but:
Guy driving down the street.
Cop behind him, pulls him.over.
Cop says, "You didn't stop at that stop sign back there."
Guy says, "I slowed down!"
Cop pulls out his night stick and starts tapping the driver around his shoulders and haed.
Cop says, "Now, do you want me to slow down...or do you want me to stop?"

 

[sam_gordon]

From now to stern:
Spa
Hot tubs
Pool
Pool bar
Restaurants on port and starboard
Windjammer Cafe
Whirlpools/hot tubs
H20 Zone splash

The spa and the restaurants are indoors.
The pool and accompanying features are outdoors

There is deck space along both sides of the pool area at least as wide as a two way street, that have lounge chairs lined up all the way along the windows, as well as some scattered tables and chairs.

the average 18 month old is just over 2.5 feet tall.
the Windows at that level do not open. They cannot be opened. There is no mechanism to open them except to remove the window.

This is the deck plan for Deck 11. Left is the bow, right is the stern. The areas in red at the center of the ship are where the windows are that open. The "H20 Zone" is a "splash zone" for kids. The circle at the bottom right of the H20 Zone is the kids "whirlpool" (basically a small round pool with a constantly circling current). The picture is not to scale (I don't think), but as others have said, there is at least 30' between the H20 zone and the windows.

This is a GREAT video showing deck 11 starting at the windjammer exit and going to one of the open windows (kudos to whoever posted this earlier in the thread)...

 

[mnrose]

This is ridiculous. I honestly do not think some of you know the difference between saying someone SHOULD do something an someone COULD do something.

I am NOT saying that the cruise line SHOULD do anything. I am saying they COULD. Possibly. Perhaps. Maybe.

The gf said hysterically that he did not know the window was opened. I have no idea what happened or how quickly it happened. But I do not believe the man was lying in the moment he said that. You can say all day long that "its obvious a window is opened" and IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. What matters is HE said he didn't know. (do some of you honestly think that in that moment after the death of this child, he made sure to say something that set them up for a lawsuit???) So, IF something is found to need to be done to prevent this, it stands to reason they would go with what the grandfather said and what the family is saying. The windows. They need to be able to open them and they would have to replace them to make others open and not those so the next logical thing would be to have SOMETHING that alerts someone from a distance that certain windows are opened.

Continuing to repeat yourselves about the rail and what the windows look like really isn't doing anything, by the way.

I seem to remember some other sarcastic posts that went something like: "If only there was something telling people not to swim in the lake. Oh, wait, there was".

I'll take people at their word that it's "obvious" whether the window is open or not. I'll also take the grandfather at his word that he *thought* it was closed. Obviously, he was very very wrong. But, can we protect everyone from their own HORRIBLE judgment? No. We can't. No matter what you did, there will always be a person who has even WORSE judgment who will bypass whatever you put in place. The question is whether the grandfather made a REASONABLE judgment that it was closed. If his judgment was not reasonable (as evidenced by the fact that this has NEVER happened before, despite many many people being by those open windows), then sorry, it's absolutely horrible, but the cruise ship owes that family nothing. We cannot make the world 100% safe, 100% of the time. Just.not.possible.

 

[PollyannaMom]

The gf said hysterically that he did not know the window was opened. I have no idea what happened or how quickly it happened. But I do not believe the man was lying in the moment he said that. You can say all day long that "its obvious a window is opened" and IT. DOESN'T. MATTER. What matters is HE said he didn't know.

I'll take people at their word that it's "obvious" whether the window is open or not. I'll also take the grandfather at his word that he *thought* it was closed.

Me too. But even if the window was closed, at that far up, I would still be afraid to let a kid lean on it/bang on it/whatever.

It could be I'm too timid, but it's just glass. - Maybe it's a lot stronger than it looks, but I still wouldn't trust it.

 

[msjprincess]

I read that he put her down near a railing in a play area, and the girl turned to lean on what should have been a closed window (all the other panes in the play area were closed), and went out. The question is, why was there an open window in a play area for children?

No. If that's what happened there would be people falling out left and right

 

[ronandannette]

Honestly all they needed was signs to say danger alligators not no swimming.
That is what he said, it is entirely possible he is covering his ***.
I just dont believe it.
From a distance, sure. But standing right there, less than an arms length from it, physically stopped and standing in front of it, I am not buying it.
I haven't read anywhere from any who had been on the ship that they have been confused by the windows.

In fairness, I am one who up-thread mentioned having had experiences with windows and glass doors where I was mistaken about them being open or closed. Not on this ship though, and I have been on it. There was also a picture up-thread - a night view, not representative of the time of day this incident took place - taken from a distance that makes it difficult to tell which are open and which aren't.

During the day and certainly standing right in front of one open window flanked by two closed ones, it would be very, very difficult not to know. I think we're practically all in agreement that in some weird, unfathomable way, the GD didn't register that the window was open when he stood the baby on the rail and let go. I do think though that there's not a reasonable person among us that if they were physically present, would have made the same mistake.

 

[mom2rtk]

I read that he put her down near a railing in a play area, and the girl turned to lean on what should have been a closed window (all the other panes in the play area were closed), and went out. The question is, why was there an open window in a play area for children?

And this is why they keep calling it a play area. So people will have this very (incorrect) thought.

 

[Guyton dis lover]

I had a coworker who was stressed about work and asked her family doctor for a note for stress leave for a month.
Got it no problem.
Union environment.
So no not a ton of documentation. Maybe difference in our employers or benefit provider.

Also know several people who got stress leave after loss of spouse. Just need doctors note.

Depends on the state. That probably wouldn’t happen in the south

 

[Searc]

View attachment 420009

This is the deck plan for Deck 11. Left is the bow, right is the stern. The areas in red at the center of the ship are where the windows are that open. The "H20 Zone" is a "splash zone" for kids. The circle at the bottom right of the H20 Zone is the kids "whirlpool" (basically a small round pool with a constantly circling current). The picture is not to scale (I don't think), but as others have said, there is at least 30' between the H20 zone and the windows.

This is a GREAT video showing deck 11 starting at the windjammer exit and going to one of the open windows (kudos to whoever posted this earlier in the thread)...

@luvsJack Still think those open windows aren't obvious?

 

[okeydokey]

I can’t believe this thread is still going. Anyone change their minds yet? LOL.

 

[mummabear]

Seriously? Not even remotely half way close to the same thing. And you well know it.

Why? Why are you willing to take GF at his word and not others?

I read that he put her down near a railing in a play area, and the girl turned to lean on what should have been a closed window (all the other panes in the play area were closed), and went out. The question is, why was there an open window in a play area for children?

And this is what the lawyer/family were hoping for by appearing on thr Today show.

I just have a hard time believing that a man that just watched his granddaughter fall to her death had the ability to think to cover his ***.

I think it is human nature to do so. I think it is a natural reaction to say "it wasn't my fault"

During the day and certainly standing right in front of one open window flanked by two closed ones, it would be very, very difficult not to know. I think we're practically all in agreement that in some weird, unfathomable way, the GD didn't register that the window was open when he stood the baby on the rail and let go.

We are in agreement that I cannot understand up close standing right at the window you couldn't tell, sure 30+ feet away across the walkway area, sure possibly. But standing right at it, no I just dont think so.
I am not in agreement that the GF did not know it was open when he sat/stood her there.
And i guess it depends if he let go or lost hold really.
I am 100% sure he didnt mean for it to happen though.

 

[morgan98]

And yet, that isn't all they did.


I just have a hard time believing that a man that just watched his granddaughter fall to her death had the ability to think to cover his ***.

Like I said, I have no idea what happened and won't claim to as some do. I wasn't there. Maybe it all happened so fast, maybe he was distracted, maybe he had sand in his eyes. I don't know.

For some unknown reason, that is what he said and his children (daughter and son in law?) believe him.

I believe the grandfather is in survival mode right now. Human nature is to try to place the blame or to share the blame. He probably cannot believe that his direct actions caused his grand daughter's death. But it appears they may have.

He needs to find a path forward. It is not as simple as saying he is lying to cover his a$$. However, I do believe he may have a bit of a revisionist sense of history at this point, just to cope. I am also sure that he would like to continue to have a relationship with the rest of the family, so subconsciously or not, he is going to offer up plausible explanations.

And it is very possible that the daughter and son-in-law "need" to believe him. That is sure a whole heck of a lot easier to "believe" than thinking your father (step-father) would hold you daughter out of an open window. Who knows what they really think behind closed doors. Things like this often destroy marriages too. This story is not over.

 

[EMom]

I believe the grandfather is in survival mode right now. Human nature is to try to place the blame or to share the blame. He probably cannot believe that his direct actions caused his grand daughter's death. But it appears they may have.

He needs to find a path forward. It is not as simple as saying he is lying to cover his a$$. However, I do believe he may have a bit of a revisionist sense of history at this point, just to cope. I am also sure that he would like to continue to have a relationship with the rest of the family, so subconsciously or not, he is going to offer up plausible explanations.

And it is very possible that the daughter and son-in-law "need" to believe him. That is sure a whole heck of a lot easier to "believe" than thinking your father (step-father) would hold you daughter out of an open window. Who knows what they really think behind closed doors. Things like think often destroy marriages too. This story is not over.

I think the GF did an incredibly stupid thing, but no way was it intentional. His way of dealing with being responsible for his DGD’s death is to “remember “ that he couldn’t tell the window was open, no matter how obvious it was. Otherwise, he has to face the fact that his irresponsible actions caused her death.

The parents choose to believe his story, because otherwise, they must face the fact that GF caused their child’s death. How do you deal with that?

In their shoes, I could never be around the GF again. Ever. I might not hate him, but the mere sight of him would cause me unbearable anguish forever. Would that mean I might never see my mother, his spouse again? Maybe, depending on what people choose to do. Then do siblings of the parents take sides? It goes on and on, with more and more ripples.

It is MUCH easier to blame the cruise line than face what actually happened, and deal with the eventual fallout.

But that doesn’t make it right.

 

[lisaviolet]

I totally agree EMom.

You love your father (or stepfather). You have lost your child.

I believe the parents are simply desperate not to go THERE. That is all this erroneous blame is about - not greed, not anything ugly in intent. There being the realization that your loved one, your father is responsible for the death of your child. What an enormous, unbearable, horrific set of emotions to face for all of them. I believe that they are simply, and probably unconsciously, trying to avoid that awful place. And no matter how much you love your father (tears for that child and for him) - only an absolute saint would be able to not have your relationship change forever. In ways that are truly out of your control.

I would like to sit here and think I would not blame RCCL in any way. Because they are clearly not at fault. There but for the grace of God go I simply keeps ringing in my head.

 

[mjkacmom]

Have you ever been on a cruise?

I’ve been on cruises, and I believe he thought there was a window there.

 

[laceltris3]

I know that the family and the lawyer have been speaking the way that they have to put pressure on RCCL to settle. Also to do what they think they need to do to assist in the criminal matter. But I think in doing so they may have actually damaged their settlement case.

The reason companies so frequently settle is the expense of the litigation. It is cheaper to pay people to go away. Many nuisance suits are basically extortion. This isn't a questionable slip and fall, or a trip over a curb. But the thing the family had that might have been of value to RCCL was their silence. They blew that leverage. So now RCCL's calculation will be heavily based on the importance of clearing their name. I think it was a mistake for them to go out with this interview and put the lawyer out there the next day before they know what was on that tape. It is a mistake to make a strategic decision like that without the facts. The only way that is a net positive is if they felt pressure to get out immediately to try to get the settlement quickly. I note that Puerto Rico does have a negligent homicide provision: negligently causing a death is a misdemeanor, with the punishment of a 4th degree felony. That has to be concerning to the family, with their law enforcement background. And makes walking out on the police interviews and blaming it on language barrier make sense. And to be honest, PR probably cares more about protecting RCCL and all of the tourism they bring to PR than they do about whether grandfather has been punished enough. Now the parents have damaged RCCL's reputation among non-cruisers or casual news consumers.

I can honestly say that if it were my child, I wouldn't want to see the video of her falling either, but I think I would have needed to see what led up to it. I would have asked them to show me, stipulating that I absolutely wanted only to see the part before she went out.

 

[mummabear]

U.S.
CRUISE SHIP WRITER SLAMMED FOR SAYING DEATH OF INDIANA TODDLER WHO PLUNGED FROM VESSEL'S WINDOW SHOULDN'T RUIN CRUISE EXPERIENCE: 'I THINK YOU HAVE A CHEEK WRITING SUCH A STORY'
By Brendan Cole On 7/26/19 at 6:56 AM EDT

Freedom of the Seas
The Freedom of the Seas cruise ship docked on April 24, 2006 in Hamburg, Germany. Officers investigating the death of an Indiana girl who fell 150ft from the vessel have not ruled out murder.
PHOTO: LUTZ BONGARTS/GETTY
U.S. ROYAL CARIBBEAN

A journalist has raised questions about how the cruise ship industry should respond to the death of an 18-month old girl who fell through an open window on a vessel.

The parents of Chloe Wiegand will sue Royal Caribbean after she plummeted from the 11th floor of the Freedom of the Seas while it was docked in San Juan, Puerto Rico, on July 7.

Police originally said the girl slipped from the grasp of her grandfather, Salvatore Anello, after he had held her up to the window.


But the family insists she accidentally fell through an open window that should have been closed securely and that Anello had placed the girl on the rail thinking there was glass behind it.

The child's mother, Kimberley Wiegand, told NBC's Today: "I never want another mother to have to experience this or to see what I had to see or to scream how I had to scream."


Following that interview, Bernadette Chua wrote in the publication, Cruise Passenger, that no questions were asked about the family's decisions that day or the actions of Chloe's grandfather.

She feared that such a tragedy could be met with an over-zealous response.

"While fingers have been pointed at the cruise line and its safety measures, when do cruisers take responsibility for their own well-being?" Chua wrote.

"Do we really want to lock every window on a cruise ship in case someone holds their child in a position where it can fall out? Do we want to turn these vessels into play pens or cells where no-one can do themselves any harm, however they behave?


Chua took issue with the family's account that it was the cruise line's responsibility to close the window.

"As many cruisers would know, cruise lines do leave the windows on the upper deck open for fresh air. These windows, which are above hip height, are tinted to show whether a window is closed or open.


"Do we really want to ruin the cruise experience by locking every door and window from the fresh sea air just in case?" Chua added.

Her editorial generated a strong response from readers below the line.

Paul Kemp wrote that cruise line did have a responsibility that all areas were safe, adding: "why you would have windows that open in a recreation area that is 11 stories high; its inexcusable,"



"I think your article is thoughtless," he wrote.

Meanwhile, Pamela McInnarney wrote that it was "disrespectful and also premature for you to write such a pathetic article and even worse for others to start pointing fingers."

"I think you have a cheek writing such a story" she added.

However, several did support Chua's position, with one reader, named as Leonard Smith, commenting that "there is no excuse for lifting a small child to the railing when she could see just fine at floor level and there is no excuse for not knowing the window was open."

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Tragic Cruise Baby Family Says Company Isn't Handing Over 'Critical' Video
Grant Wall wrote: "It is a tragic situation, BUT the family are solely responsible for their children. STOP trying to blame someone else for your stupid behavior and decisions."

In a statement earlier this week, a Royal Caribbean spokeswoman said: "We are assisting local authorities in San Juan, as they make inquiries after an incident aboard Freedom of the Seas. We do not have further information to share at this point