This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[Hikergirl]

Something that I found interesting was the attorney calling this an accident. https://www.today.com/news/parents-...ibbean-cruise-ship-share-unfathomable-t159158

"There's no doubt this was an accident," the family's attorney, Mike Winkleman, said. "Really the singular question is, were there safety measures that could have been in place and should have been in place? If they were in place, again, there would have been no tragedy."

ETA: I would argue that the window being tinted, it's height off the floor, and the use of a railing are all adequate safety measures. From a pure statistical perspective, this has only happened once and hundreds of thousands if not millions of people have been on ships with these windows.

The singular answer is if the GF didn't lift her up on to the railing there would have been no tragedy.
Like a pp said- the railing is a barrier, it is not a seat or a place to stand. If you choose to do either of those things then you assume the risk and responsibility of anything that happens to you, or in this case to the child you willingly put up there.

Anyone know if this was the family's first time cruising?

 

[Floridaman999]

Seems like they're gonna have to add the grandfather to the case so they can sue him for contributory negligence. They certainly can't argue it's all the cruise lines fault and completely ignore the contributory aspects as well.

 

[lifesavacation]

Seems like they're gonna have to add the grandfather to the case so they can sue him for contributory negligence. They certainly can't argue it's all the cruise lines fault and completely ignore the contributory aspects as well.

Also pointing out that the investigation with the PR authorities isn't complete yet. It would really mess up their plans if the GF is charged with a crime.

 

[luvsJack]

Calling it a dining area is accurate. Calling it a kids play area is not.

The Windjammer Cafe is located on the same deck. The windows in question stretch from the outdoor seating area of the Windjammer Cafe to the Vitality Spa.

I have sat at a table next to an open window on that deck and enjoyed some food.

There is a mixture of tables with chairs to sun loungers to nothing located next to the windows.

No where along there is a kids play area.

The area where kids would play, the pool and H2O Zone, are far from the windows.

If you are saying that no one is going to look at that area and think its a kid's area, you are kidding yourself. H2O zone is right in the middle on that end of the deck. The chairs are set up facing the H2o Zone. There isn't near the room between the play area (because what exactly else would you call it?) and the windows as some of you are saying.

It would be as much a Kid's Area as it would be a Dining Area.

 

[kdonnel]

If you are saying that no one is going to look at that area and think its a kid's area, you are kidding yourself. H2O zone is right in the middle on that end of the deck. The chairs are set up facing the H2o Zone. There isn't near the room between the play area (because what exactly else would you call it?) and the windows as some of you are saying.

It would be as much a Kid's Area as it would be a Dining Area.

The windows in question are 20-30 feet away from the H2O Zone. There is NOTHING by the windows that could be thought of by anyone as a kids area.

As a parent you have a responsibility to watch your kids.

If you are so far away from them that they can cross 20-30 feet, stack multiple chairs atop each other, climb up, and fall out a window four feet off the ground, you are negligent as a parent.

Any jury member who would find otherwise is basing their decision purely on emotion and not on facts.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But the reason he wants public sympathy is for a potential jury pool of sympathetic people. And if the cruise line sees that people are feeling sympathetic toward the family, they are more likely to settle.

You don't really need to do that though. They're more likely to settle because they don't want their name dragged through the mud and they'll slap an NDA on it if they can so no one gets to really hear what goes on. Just the act of filing a lawsuit and your name being in the media (not even going on tv or being interviewed) can increase the chance (even though it's not always 'right' to file the lawsuit in the first place) of a settlement so it lessens the harm to the brand.

I don't tend to hear of more well-known big things to fully go through the entire court process. So many times it's a settlement for no other reason than it's easier that way.

Most times when I hear people duking it out in courts it's big companies on both sides with deep pockets who usually have proprietary things at stake or they are in danger of being fined by the government for something, etc.

 

[TheFloatingBear]

I mentioned previously that is a very interesting picture shared of the girl leaning/banging on the glass at a hockey game. She is clearly standing on her own, unassisted. And yet I am not familiar with any ice rink that has glass down near the floor at toddler height. So she is clearly up on some kind of platform or something that puts her at the height of the glass. Ice rinks don't have full-wall glass, it starts at an adult's waist. Or I simply don't visit the right hockey rinks...

But yes, she could easily have just looked/knocked on the lower panel that doesn't open. No need to have lifted her up higher.

I spend a lot of time in hockey rinks (headed to one in a few minutes). We go to several that would have a similar design to the one I've seen pictured with the child. In these types of rinks you walk up half a flight of stairs to a long platform of sorts and the seating goes up from there. So an adult would be looking down through the ice at the game. Usually it's on the long ends of the rink, not the corners and shorter end where the goalies are, where adults standing would have the glass around waist area. Hope I am making sense!

I will also add just for fyi, you don't generally see parents letting children lean on the glass. As well, every rink I frequent has rules against banging on the glass and it's not really something I ever see. The rink where I was last week had this included in it's Code of Conduct sign: "Do not lean over or pound on glass, the glass surrounding the playing surface is part of the playing area." Generally speaking, every rink I go to has a similar code that includes some type of prohibition against banging on the glass, both due to safety and sportsmanship.

I haven't been able to stop thinking of this poor little girl and her family...

 

[sam_gordon]

Calling it a dining area is accurate. Calling it a kids play area is not.

The Windjammer Cafe is located on the same deck. The windows in question stretch from the outdoor seating area of the Windjammer Cafe to the Vitality Spa.

I have sat at a table next to an open window on that deck and enjoyed some food.

There is a mixture of tables with chairs to sun loungers to nothing located next to the windows.

No where along there is a kids play area.

The area where kids would play, the pool and H2O Zone, are far from the windows.

Sorry, no, calling it a "dining" area is NOT accurate. To get from the Windjammer to the pool deck, you go through the WJ bar area (there are some tables out there), down a short hallway, then left or right to get to the elevator banks. Go through the elevator banks to a set of double doors, then you're on the pool deck. But you're at the central part of the pool deck. So now go 30-40 feet until you get to the windows. But you'll have to work your way around tables/chairs to get to those windows.

The children's splash pad is actually closer to the windows than WJ. BUT, as mentioned, it's at the center of the ship. To get from the splash pad to the windows, you need to go through some loungers, across an "aisle", then through some loungers or tables/chairs before you get to the window.

And yes, while there's tables there, it isn't really a "dining" area. People put drinks, maybe some food, towels, etc on the tables or play cards, or whatever. It would be like going to your neighborhood pool, putting the umbrella up on a table and say "this is the dining area".

 

[mummabear]

I think the dangling was a very early report that has never been confirmed since that day.

And neither has his story, honestly I believe an immediate account more than the story he is spinning out banging on glass at a hockey rink and thinking it was closed.
As I have said before I dint think he was holding her legs and all out the window, but was he leaning her out?

Are we in scramble now to make it sound worse as the thread goes on?

What witnesses?

One article says that witnesses "recalled the mother's screams as the child fell". The mother wasn't there, she didn't see her child fall. She only realized the child fell to the concrete when she got to the deck where the grandfather was. So I wouldn't really put a lot of stock in "witness reports".


The area on the ship has a large water play area right in the middle. With chairs all around pointing toward play are as though for parents watching their kids. I can certainly understand WHY it keeps getting called that.

The witnesses that were quoted on the day it happened. No one is trying to make it sound worse as it goes on, these words have been discussed since the thread started, because these are what the reports say.

Look at the deck plan. This isnt a kids room, this is an open space with bars and several pools.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

This is what another maritime lawyer (not their maritime lawyer) had to say about the case:

"Miami-based maritime lawyer Jim Walker says proving negligence won’t be an easy feat for the family.

“In order for a cruise line to be legally liable for this child’s death, the family’s lawyer must prove that the cruise line acted unreasonably and that the cruise line knew or should have known of the specific danger on its ship,” he told news.com.au.

“This will be an exceedingly difficult burden for the lawyer to meet in this very sad and tragic set of circumstances.

“Without evidence (prior incidents or proof that the cruise line knew of a dangerous condition on the cruise ship) the chances are slim that the court (if suit is filed) would permit this case to proceed to a jury trial,” he added."

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...p/news-story/e4f95a68f3d4df2129d47e8f9743f1ad

 

[msjprincess]

This is what another maritime lawyer (not their maritime lawyer) had to say about the case:

"Miami-based maritime lawyer Jim Walker says proving negligence won’t be an easy feat for the family.

“In order for a cruise line to be legally liable for this child’s death, the family’s lawyer must prove that the cruise line acted unreasonably and that the cruise line knew or should have known of the specific danger on its ship,” he told news.com.au.

“This will be an exceedingly difficult burden for the lawyer to meet in this very sad and tragic set of circumstances.

“Without evidence (prior incidents or proof that the cruise line knew of a dangerous condition on the cruise ship) the chances are slim that the court (if suit is filed) would permit this case to proceed to a jury trial,” he added."

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trav...p/news-story/e4f95a68f3d4df2129d47e8f9743f1ad

Wow. If Jim Walker says that, there's not much chance of a case.

He's the King of cruiseline ambulance chasers.

 

[John VN]

If it was a known danger, then its up to the cruise line to do everything in their power to get rid of the risk.

SEE the COMMON SENSE reply by msjprincess below

What about the rest of the railings all over the ship? Putting a child on a railing is a known danger.

EXACTLY !!!

 

[mummabear]

Double post

 

[Summer2018]

I spend a lot of time in hockey rinks (headed to one in a few minutes). We go to several that would have a similar design to the one I've seen pictured with the child. In these types of rinks you walk up half a flight of stairs to a long platform of sorts and the seating goes up from there. So an adult would be looking down through the ice at the game. Usually it's on the long ends of the rink, not the corners and shorter end where the goalies are, where adults standing would have the glass around waist area. Hope I am making sense!

I will also add just for fyi, you don't generally see parents letting children lean on the glass. As well, every rink I frequent has rules against banging on the glass and it's not really something I ever see. The rink where I was last week had this included in it's Code of Conduct sign: "Do not lean over or pound on glass, the glass surrounding the playing surface is part of the playing area." Generally speaking, every rink I go to has a similar code that includes some type of prohibition against banging on the glass, both due to safety and sportsmanship.

I haven't been able to stop thinking of this poor little girl and her family...

You are absolutely correct.

I also have spent a lot of time in hockey rinks because my husband plays and coaches hockey as do other family members and friends.

Another place you will find the glass beginning on the floor is in the suites. When we bring my niece and nephew to games, the first thing we tell them is to sit in their seats and not bang on the glass. The event staff remind both adults and kids about the safety rules when they come to take our food/drink order.

 

[luvsJack]

And neither has his story, honestly I believe an immediate account more than the story he is spinning out banging on glass at a hockey rink and thinking it was closed.
As I have said before I dint think he was holding her legs and all out the window, but was he leaning her out?



The witnesses that were quoted on the day it happened. No one is trying to make it sound worse as it goes on, these words have been discussed since the thread started, because these are what the reports say.

Look at the deck plan. This isnt a kids room, this is an open space with bars and several pools.

I have seen the deck plans. And I didn’t say it IS a kid’s area. I said, I can see why some would call it that if they were close to the play area.

My understanding from initial reports were that there were no witnesses. And like I said, there were witnesses reporting the mother’s reaction that can’t be true because she didn’t see the child fall. So yeah, not too reliable.

 

[luvsJack]

SEE the COMMON SENSE reply by msjprincess below



EXACTLY !!!

Ok?

I didn’t say that it was the best thing to do. But the guests on the cruise ship aren’t the ones liable for what goes on. I don’t think they were negligent. But that is what the lawyer is going to try and prove.

 

[mummabear]

If you are saying that no one is going to look at that area and think its a kid's area, you are kidding yourself. H2O zone is right in the middle on that end of the deck. The chairs are set up facing the H2o Zone. There isn't near the room between the play area (because what exactly else would you call it?) and the windows as some of you are saying.

It would be as much a Kid's Area as it would be a Dining Area.

In a similar distance to the windows the 18 month old could have made it to the main pool and drowned as well.
Which is why the area is not a kids play area.

 

[luvsJack]

In a similar distance to the windows the 18 month old could have made it to the main pool and drowned as well.
Which is why the area is not a kids play area.

That has not one thing to do with this.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I have seen the deck plans. And I didn’t say it IS a kid’s area. I said, I can see why some would call it that if they were close to the play area.

My understanding from initial reports were that there were no witnesses. And like I said, there were witnesses reporting the mother’s reaction that can’t be true because she didn’t see the child fall. So yeah, not too reliable.

It's very possible someone heard a woman scream & assumed it was the mother. A stranger wouldn't have known who the child's mother was.

 

[msjprincess]

In a similar distance to the windows the 18 month old could have made it to the main pool and drowned as well.
Which is why the area is not a kids play area.

There's actually a pool right in the H20 area. You can see it on the left of the photo below. It's an area where you should be keeping an extra eye on your toddlers. That's what annoys me about their description of windows in a child play area. It makes it sound like an area where children should be running around unattended.