This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[luvsJack]

I'm guessing it's so people can feel the breeze. If the upper windows were open, I don't know that anyone would feel the effects.

This is just a guess though.

That makes sense. And this thing they are calling a ledge, it’s not right at the window? So it’s more like a barrier between people and the window?

 

[mousefan73]

Comparing the alligator incident to this is comparing two completely different scenarios. I actually read the public police post report and it was clearly stated the alligator incident was A situation where that child was at the wrong place at the wrong time. And many other variables came together, For example evening hours when alligators feed and the size of the kid and the fact that the kid was bent over and was splashing confused the alligator in thinking it was a small animal to prey upon. The kid was also not swimming in the classic sense.

 

[sam_gordon]

That makes sense. And this thing they are calling a ledge, it’s not right at the window? So it’s more like a barrier between people and the window?

I've been on the ship twice, but don't remember the exact situation. There was a picture (I believe earlier in this thread) that shows the window frame (possibly 2-3" wide maybe), then the railing which is an additional 4-5" inches inside the ship. IMO, if the GF put the toddler on the railing, that's bad enough. If he put her on the window frame (and therefore had to put her PAST the railing) that's negligence.

 

[ronandannette]

There was, and there was also people arguing as fiercely in their defence. I personally see the situations as very different...

...Exactly, I doubt very much that this Granddad had any intention of hurting his granddaughter, there seems to be a lot of photos of them together, he seems an involved grandparent.
But he also seems to have made a choice so dumbfoundingly stupid that it cost his grandchild her life, and was so easily preventable.

The only people arguing fiercely in defense that I see are the lawyers, who of course are trying to establish a case. In this thread I think there are those of us who are pondering the vagaries of life and trying to piece together possibilities based on our own experiences and sensibilities. There have also been some grey-area details in the reporting that make circumspect people less a little more likely to back away from immediate, harsh judgement. That's not the same as a defense, exactly.
ETA: My comments are in relation to the ship incident and the quote is apparently referring to the alligator incident, which I misunderstood and was pointed out down-thread. Sorry @mummabear .

The 2nd paragraph in your quote is 100% objectively correct and I doubt anyone can say otherwise in it's most cut-and-dried form.

Have you ever been within 2' of a window and NOT know whether it was open or not? If he was that close to the window and still couldn't tell it was open, he shouldn't have had responsibility for a toddler put into his care.

This was a tragic accident. Whatever decisions he made he will have to live with for the rest of his life. However, instead of saying "I made the wrong decision" or "I don't know exactly what happened", they (the family) try to put all the blame on the cruise line. That is reprehensible IMO.

Yes. More than once in my life I've walked into or slammed my hand against a window or glass door I thought was open - does that count?

FTR, I do not believe the cruise line or any other cruise line is ever culpable for a person going overboard in any situation. It is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to "fall off" a cruise ship entirely by accident in the course of normal activity.

 

[lanejudy]

The only people arguing fiercely in defense that I see are the lawyers, who of course are trying to establish a case.

If you go back and look, that comment was made in reference to the WDW alligator incident, not the current cruise incident.

 

[msjprincess]

That makes sense. And this thing they are calling a ledge, it’s not right at the window? So it’s more like a barrier between people and the window?

It's not a ledge at all. It's a railing a few inches away from the window. So yes, a barrier. It's the same as all of the railings all over the ship.

 

[DLgal]

Well, apparently the video footage is "conclusive" as to what happened, according to one article.

The police are in possession of the video, willingly turned over by RCCL.

The police have so far refused to share the video with the family's criminal lawyers.

However, they offered the PARENTS (but not the grandfather) the opportunity to watch the video.

This tells me that the video shows that what happened was NOT the cruise line's fault, and that the grandfather's actions directly caused this tragedy.

And, I'm just going to say this. I am Puerto Rican. I have family still living in PR. My family members have worked at the local government level. EVERYONE that works in public service in PR is fully bilingual. There would be no "language barrier" issues at the level of a criminal police investigation.

The cruise line and police know what happened. Understandably, in their grief, the parents were unable to view the video. However, I think eventually, they will have to. Especially if this ends up in court. It will be presented as key evidence.

 

[ronandannette]

If you go back and look, that comment was made in reference to the WDW alligator incident, not the current cruise incident.

Oh...OK then. I myself "fiercely defended" the father in that instance and stand by it to this day. Thanks for the clarity.

ETA: I'm going back to edit this detail into my previous post. Sorry @mummabear .

 

[FigmentSpark]

It's not a ledge at all. It's a railing a few inches away from the window. So yes, a barrier. It's the same as all of the railings all over the ship.

View attachment 416960

Excellent photo. Sadly, I can see where someone who's not thinking would look at it and see a place to sit a small child. It's got a 'seat' (the rail) and a place for feet (the window ledge). Age, poor eyes and not thinking due to excitement and maybe the very beginnings of dementia could make this happen.

As for RCCL, while I don't blame them, having that window ledge above the railing, even by 5 inches, might have made the difference.

 

[sam_gordon]

As for RCCL, while I don't blame them, having that window ledge above, even by 5 inches, the railing might have made the difference.

The perspective makes it hard to tell, but I bet the railing is <12" higher than the window frame. If one is willing to set a child on this railing, then they're willing to set a child on any railing all around the ship.

 

[ronandannette]

It's not a ledge at all. It's a railing a few inches away from the window. So yes, a barrier. It's the same as all of the railings all over the ship.

View attachment 416960

The pictures and descriptions are kind of confounding in how hard it actually is to imaging this scenario. Heck, I've been on the Freedom of the Seas more than once and when the incident was reported I had to wrack my brain to come up with any mental image of "windows that opened". Even this picture, from it's perspective, makes it look at first glance like the opening is relatively close to floor level, which it is not. So difficult to comprehend correctly, especially for those that have never been on a ship.

 

[lifesavacation]

At the end of the day, I don’t need to know the details to feel with absolute certainty this was a tragic accident. I don’t judge the GF not providing a statement either. There is a high quality video. The lawyer can spin whatever he wants publicly, but the GF better be completely honest and forthcoming in private regarding the details with his daughter and SIL. I doubt I myself could ever reach a point of forgiveness but to misstate what happened would make the tragedy even worse and would forever ruin the relationship. I do agree that the cruise line offered the video to the parents because it doesn’t backup the GF’s account.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Excellent photo. Sadly, I can see where someone who's not thinking would look at it and see a place to sit a small child. It's got a 'seat' (the rail) and a place for feet (the window ledge). Age, poor eyes and not thinking due to excitement and maybe the very beginnings of dementia could make this happen.

As for RCCL, while I don't blame them, having that window ledge above the railing, even by 5 inches, might have made the difference.

I kind of see the rail as a block to getting too close to the window - a "stay behind the barrier at all times" reminder so nobody could lean (or even trip) directly against the window. I certainly think the cruiseline will try to do even more in the future to prevent people from making mistakes, but I think having the railing where it is was actually meant to be one of those things in the first place.

 

[ronandannette]

Excellent photo. Sadly, I can see where someone who's not thinking would look at it and see a place to sit a small child. It's got a 'seat' (the rail) and a place for feet (the window ledge). Age, poor eyes and not thinking due to excitement and maybe the very beginnings of dementia could make this happen.

As for RCCL, while I don't blame them, having that window ledge above the railing, even by 5 inches, might have made the difference.

Lots of things in life would make a difference when it comes to risk. There's just simply no way to mitigate all of it.

 

[Allison]

Have you ever been within 2' of a window and NOT know whether it was open or not? If he was that close to the window and still couldn't tell it was open, he shouldn't have had responsibility for a toddler put into his care.

This was a tragic accident. Whatever decisions he made he will have to live with for the rest of his life. However, instead of saying "I made the wrong decision" or "I don't know exactly what happened", they (the family) try to put all the blame on the cruise line. That is reprehensible IMO.

It seems like your distaste regarding the family engaging a lawyer is coloring your opinion that he had to know the window was open. None of us know what he thought the situation was. My point is, what people think is a given, really isn't. I don't know what he thought the situation was at that moment. None of us do.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm really not. I'm just trying to make the point that was as humans tend to believe that things are absolute. That nobody could make this mistake or that mistake. But, sadly it happens.

Yes, I have been that close to glass and not known whether it was open or not. I walked right into the glass and ended up on the ground because I hit it so hard.

 

[FigmentSpark]

I kind of see the rail as a block to getting too close to the window - a "stay behind the barrier at all times" reminder so nobody could lean (or even trip) directly against the window. I certainly think the cruiseline will try to do even more in the future to prevent people from making mistakes, but I think having the railing where it is was actually meant to be one of those things in the first place.

I agree. It's meant to be a block. But it looks like a perfect seat from the angle in the photo.

 

[ronandannette]

I kind of see the rail as a block to getting too close to the window - a "stay behind the barrier at all times" reminder so nobody could lean (or even trip) directly against the window. I certainly think the cruiseline will try to do even more in the future to prevent people from making mistakes, but I think having the railing where it is was actually meant to be one of those things in the first place.

I disagree. There's nothing more needed at all to provide a reasonably safe environment. Slipping on a wet pool deck or stumbling down a staircase when the ship is moving are far more realistic risks, and things like that are simply impossible to 100% prevent. Minimizing the risk of a baby being dropped out of an open window is a crazy-implausible scenario to actively mitigate against.

 

[lifesavacation]

It seems like your distaste regarding the family engaging a lawyer is coloring your opinion that he had to know the window was open. None of us know what he thought the situation was. My point is, what people think is a given, really isn't. I don't know what he thought the situation was at that moment. None of us do.

Yes, I have been that close to glass and not known whether it was open or not. I walked right into the glass and ended up on the ground because I hit it so hard.

People do walk smack into sliding glass doors. These windows were tinted though. Not sure if that makes a difference since I haven’t personally been on this ship.

 

[Allison]

There's nothing more needed at all to provide a reasonably safe environment.

But, that doesn't mean they won't do something. I would be surprised if some kind of change isn't made.

 

[gwynne]

At the end of the day, I don’t need to know the details to feel with absolute certainty this was a tragic accident. I don’t judge the GF not providing a statement either. There is a high quality video. The lawyer can spin whatever he wants publicly, but the GF better be completely honest and forthcoming in private regarding the details with his daughter and SIL. I doubt I myself could ever reach a point of forgiveness but to misstate what happened would make the tragedy even worse and would forever ruin the relationship. I do agree that the cruise line offered the video to the parents because it doesn’t backup the GF’s account.

The lawyer's statements are irrelevant to me.
The actions of the local authorities give me much better clues about the general direction of the investigation.
In addition to video and witnesses, I am sure the authorities will get weather info related to the winds/direction that day and time. Could one feel the breeze easily? Was the breeze blowing parallel to the ship, harder to feel? Or was it a still day?