This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[sam_gordon]

I’ve read through as much as I can on this thread and I haven’t seen the answer.... I thought the parents, or at least one of them, was right there when it happened? If I was the mother and I was right there, I wouldn’t have even let the grandfather get to the point of putting my toddler on a railing like that. Perhaps I’m wrong and it was just the grandfather and the baby and the rest of the family was somewhere else

If I remember correctly it was just the GF and toddler. The rest of the family was elsewhere at the time.

 

[ZZBane]

If I remember correctly it was just the GF and toddler. The rest of the family was elsewhere at the time.

oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[fly girl]

I’ve read through as much as I can on this thread and I haven’t seen the answer.... I thought the parents, or at least one of them, was right there when it happened? If I was the mother and I was right there, I wouldn’t have even let the grandfather get to the point of putting my toddler on a railing like that. Perhaps I’m wrong and it was just the grandfather and the baby and the rest of the family was somewhere else

No, only the grandfather was there. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the others were in the Windjammer (buffet restaurant) on the same deck.

I think a crew member and another passenger were in the vicinity, but not close enough realize and/or stop the tragedy.

ETA: sorry, just saw question had been answered. I didn't see there was a new page.

 

[shelemm]

When I first heard the story, I was in disbelief about the grandfather's actions. Now, I am not so sure. If the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone. The grandfather thought there was a closed window there, and it was the only window in a series of windows that was open. Most anyone would have thought there was a closed window there, and I would have guessed it was a fixed window that could not be opened at all. I do not think a jury will convict him.

 

[Deb]

When I first heard the story, I was in disbelief about the grandfather's actions. Now, I am not so sure. If the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone. The grandfather thought there was a closed window there, and it was the only window in a series of windows that was open. Most anyone would have thought there was a closed window there, and I would have guessed it was a fixed window that could not be opened at all. I do not think a jury will convict him.

even if all of that were true, which it isn't. Isn't it negligent to take an 18 month old, lift them 4 feet in the air, perch them on a railing and let go?

 

[kaytieeldr]

f the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone

Assuming we're all looking at the same photographs and that they are of that ship at that dock that afternoon, it's apparent that pretty much every alternating window on that deck was open.

Even in Puerto Rico in July, there would have been some slight warm breeze making it obvious there was an open window right where they stood.

The windows are tinted, green. No tint = No window.

 

[sam_gordon]

When I first heard the story, I was in disbelief about the grandfather's actions. Now, I am not so sure. If the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone. The grandfather thought there was a closed window there, and it was the only window in a series of windows that was open. Most anyone would have thought there was a closed window there, and I would have guessed it was a fixed window that could not be opened at all. I do not think a jury will convict him.

I'm curious what pictures you've seen.

Please watch this video and tell me if you think the open and closed windows look the same (jump forward to about :25 seconds if you'd like).

This is the same ship. You can also see the "children's play area" to the left as he's walking by the windows.

 

[Searc]

When I first heard the story, I was in disbelief about the grandfather's actions. Now, I am not so sure. If the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone. The grandfather thought there was a closed window there, and it was the only window in a series of windows that was open. Most anyone would have thought there was a closed window there, and I would have guessed it was a fixed window that could not be opened at all. I do not think a jury will convict him.

You didn't read the thread.

 

[sam_gordon]

You didn't read the thread.

In the PP defense, the thread IS 54 pages long with over 1K posts.

I am really interested in what pictures they've seen that leads them to that belief. I wonder if the pictures were at night or from the pier (neither of which would be the case as the grandfather saw it).

 

[Searc]

In the PP defense, the thread IS 54 pages long with over 1K posts.

I am really interested in what pictures they've seen that leads them to that belief. I wonder if the pictures were at night or from the pier (neither of which would be the case as the grandfather saw it).

Yes, it is, but it wasn't like their incorrect analysis was discussed only once in the thread. They could have gone back literally one page and seen the same viewpoint refuted with facts.

 

[fly girl]

When I first heard the story, I was in disbelief about the grandfather's actions. Now, I am not so sure. If the pictures I've seen of the cruise ship location is the where this took place, it could very well be the fault of the cruise ship as much as anyone. The grandfather thought there was a closed window there, and it was the only window in a series of windows that was open. Most anyone would have thought there was a closed window there, and I would have guessed it was a fixed window that could not be opened at all. I do not think a jury will convict him.

If you are looking at the pictures from the outside of the ship that isn't a real reference. You need to look at pics (there are all over on this thread) and you can tell which windows are open vs. closed. And many of us have been on that ship and can verify first hand there is no way you couldn't tell the window wasn't open (tint on glass, sea spray dirt on windows, air circulation) Even if through all that he couldn't tell, he still propped her up on a thin wooden railing that has a 6" gap between the railing and the window -- a very dangerous place to put a 18 month old. She could've fallen forwards or backwards hitting her head. If he wanted her to look out and/or bang on the glass it could've easily been done from her level as there are fixed windows at that height.

 

[ronandannette]

If you are looking at the pictures from the outside of the ship that isn't a real reference. You need to look at pics (there are all over on this thread) and you can tell which windows are open vs. closed. And many of us have been on that ship and can verify first hand there is no way you couldn't tell the window wasn't open (tint on glass, sea spray dirt on windows, air circulation) Even if through all that he couldn't tell, he still propped her up on a thin wooden railing that has a 6" gap between the railing and the window -- a very dangerous place to put a 18 month old. She could've fallen forwards or backwards hitting her head. If he wanted her to look out and/or bang on the glass it could've easily been done from her level as there are fixed windows at that height.

Interestingly, there is a similar thread over on the Royal Caribbean board here on the DIS. As you'd expect, almost all the posters there are experienced cruisers. There aren't any posts there agreeing that the open windows could have been mistaken for closed. No one who's actually ever been on a cruise ship would ever say so. And the "children's play area" description? A complete non-starter. It's a bit jarring to realize though, how public opinion is formed. The lawyer got out in front with a narrative and probably millions of uninformed people have swallowed it whole. I certainly hope if the civil suit proceeds and goes to a jury, the jury is made up of people who have at least a modicum of knowledge.

 

[shelemm]

I saw a photo from the inside, and I could start to see the confusion. As for falling in any other direction or even in a gap perhaps the grandfather was prepared for that. I don’t trust public opinion as many people are convicted who are blatantly innocent.

I would not have done what the grandfather did, but I am not convinced the story is as one-sided as initial reports indicated.

 

[fly girl]

I saw a photo from the inside, and I could start to see the confusion. As for falling in any other direction or even in a gap perhaps the grandfather was prepared for that. I don’t trust public opinion as many people are convicted who are blatantly innocent.

I would not have done what the grandfather did, but I am not convinced the story is as one-sided as initial reports indicated.

Seeing a photo versus being there is totally different. Since I have sailed on that ship and a few of its sisters, I honestly cannot see how he didn't realize. However, there is a remote possibility he didn't. Even with that said, why would he put his granddaughter on that skinny railing that is not intended for a child to sit let alone stand on? So she could bang on the glass?? There was glass at her level! It doesn't make sense. I am not saying he is a bad guy. I truly think he had a lapse in good judgement. He made a stupid and ultimately fatal mistake. I hope he is not convicted, he is suffering enough. But in the same breath, I do place blame on him.

And one sided? That has been the family's stance! They blame RCCL 100%. No accountability on the grandfather.

 

[sam_gordon]

I saw a photo from the inside, and I could start to see the confusion. As for falling in any other direction or even in a gap perhaps the grandfather was prepared for that. I don’t trust public opinion as many people are convicted who are blatantly innocent.

I would not have done what the grandfather did, but I am not convinced the story is as one-sided as initial reports indicated.

Surely there is a link to this picture. I'd really like to see it. Did you look at the video I posted earlier? Did you look at any other pictures?

 

[Searc]

I saw a photo from the inside, and I could start to see the confusion. As for falling in any other direction or even in a gap perhaps the grandfather was prepared for that. I don’t trust public opinion as many people are convicted who are blatantly innocent.

I would not have done what the grandfather did, but I am not convinced the story is as one-sided as initial reports indicated.

Facts are not "public opinion".

 

[luvsJack]

I just watched the video again and I have a question. Are the bottom windows all open? Or are they fixed and not able to open? Maybe I am seeing it wrong but they all look clear.

Not getting back into the did he know or didn’t he know debate, just asking a question. .

 

[sam_gordon]

I just watched the video again and I have a question. Are the bottom windows all open? Or are they fixed and not able to open? Maybe I am seeing it wrong but they all look clear.

Not getting back into the did he know or didn’t he know debate, just asking a question. .

As I remember, the bottom windows are all closed. Only the ones at rail height can open.

 

[fly girl]

I just watched the video again and I have a question. Are the bottom windows all open? Or are they fixed and not able to open? Maybe I am seeing it wrong but they all look clear.

Not getting back into the did he know or didn’t he know debate, just asking a question. .

I'm 99.99% sure the bottom windows are fixed like a wall and do not open. There is no barrier, and would be a huge liability for the cruise line. (If sweet Chloe fell out of bottom window, I would blame RCCL as there is no protection.)

My guess as to why they are clear is because they are fixed and provide a better view versus the tinted, but the tint is important for the windows that can open so you can tell the difference between open and closed ones.

 

[mjkacmom]

Facts are not "public opinion".

Facts? So you saw the video from the ship and know exactly what happened?