Third party commercial renters

[lowlight]

I know this has been discussed, tangentially, in other threads recently, but I want to make a direct thread to really highlight what myself, and some others, perceive as a growing issue that is detrimental to the average DVC member. I'm attaching the names of the website to make sure it is allowed by the filter, no intent to step on mods toes. On Redweek.com, a popular timeshare rental site, a separate third party commercial rental site has an exhausting list of rentals. There are 1175 current rentals listed on Redweek.com for Disney World, as well as a hundred more for HH/DL/Aulani. Sorting by date, on the first page of 48 listings, this third party site owns 35 of those (paid, as in costs money to list) listings, which is roughly 73%. I don't have the time to count all 1175 listings for WDW, but glancing at most pages, I believe that percentage won't change much when applied to all 1175 listings + 100 for offsite. Some of these listings are busy weeks in hard to get rooms, but we've discussed this ad nauseum. The concerning part is that many of these listings are single day stragglers, and it appears that the company is going through and booking every last minute room availability and selling it at inflated prices. We all know that DVC last minute availability is slim pickings, but I've noticed in the past few years it has gotten harder to add on a day here or there when plans change. When I started using Redweek a few years ago, this third party site had no listings on Redweek.com that I can recall, and now they are likely at ~70% of the entire website. This is one website, there are plenty more, in addition to their own website. These listings cost money, so I doubt they are "ghost listings", or even listed on behalf of their clients. Does anyone else have a serious problem with this, and what can be done? This problem seems to get worse by the week, it honestly boggles my mind that Disney has not stepped in so far.

 

[E2ME2]

I know this has been discussed, tangentially, in other threads recently, but I want to make a direct thread to really highlight what myself, and some others, perceive as a growing issue that is detrimental to the average DVC member. I'm attaching the names of the website to make sure it is allowed by the filter, no intent to step on mods toes. On Redweek.com, a popular timeshare rental site, a separate third party commercial rental site has an exhausting list of rentals. There are 1175 current rentals listed on Redweek.com for Disney World, as well as a hundred more for HH/DL/Aulani. Sorting by date, on the first page of 48 listings, this third party site owns 35 of those (paid, as in costs money to list) listings, which is roughly 73%. I don't have the time to count all 1175 listings for WDW, but glancing at most pages, I believe that percentage won't change much when applied to all 1175 listings + 100 for offsite. Some of these listings are busy weeks in hard to get rooms, but we've discussed this ad nauseum. The concerning part is that many of these listings are single day stragglers, and it appears that the company is going through and booking every last minute room availability and selling it at inflated prices. We all know that DVC last minute availability is slim pickings, but I've noticed in the past few years it has gotten harder to add on a day here or there when plans change. When I started using Redweek a few years ago, this third party site had no listings on Redweek.com that I can recall, and now they are likely at ~70% of the entire website. This is one website, there are plenty more, in addition to their own website. These listings cost money, so I doubt they are "ghost listings", or even listed on behalf of their clients. Does anyone else have a serious problem with this, and what can be done? This problem seems to get worse by the week, it honestly boggles my mind that Disney has not stepped in so far.

You're singing my song!
I complain, every year, to all the DVC reps on site about how frustrating it is as a long-time owner, using all of my points for personal vacation, to never be able to get certain room categories at the 11 month mark. I have 'stalked' some guests to ask them about their accommodations, only to find that they are not DVC owners, but are renting from a "DVC-rental company" (their words) !!
I had a CM call me last year, to follow up, after I expressed this opinion via email. She acknowledged that there is an issue, but had no proposed solutions to offer. Disney just seems to turn a deaf ear to this nagging problem.

 

[Sandisw]

Thank you for using links as that is what the board requires. We mods volunteer to oversee those rules and not involved in creating them!

A reminder before it happens that if you want to discuss any business, and that business is in the boards filter, you can not share information you find on their site, including in general ways (ie. there is a site out there that currently has XYZ).

And, yes, there are some sites that indeed can not be discussed here on the DIS! Thank all!

 

[samsp99]

I am really surprised that Disney isn’t cracking down on this - not because of the impact to the other DVC members - but because it’s probably affecting their hotel revenue. You know have 3rd parties advertising DVC backed rooms as an alternative to renting hotel rooms from Disney at the same locations. This is hotel revenue that Disney isn’t making, and is depressing demand that they can use to pump hotel pricing, or reduce discounts.

 

[lowlight]

I am really surprised that Disney isn’t cracking down on this - not because of the impact to the other DVC members - but because it’s probably affecting their hotel revenue. You know have 3rd parties advertising DVC backed rooms as an alternative to renting hotel rooms from Disney at the same locations. This is hotel revenue that Disney isn’t making, and is depressing demand that they can use to pump hotel pricing, or reduce discounts.

Yes, that was the thought I had initially, but then I realized- so many of those are last minute reservations. What happens to them when the third party cancels the booking? Do they go straight to breakage rooms that Disney can sell?

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, that was the thought I had initially, but then I realized- so many of those are last minute reservations. What happens to them when the third party cancels the booking? Do they go straight to breakage rooms that Disney can sell?

Any rooms still available within 60 days of check in can be pulled for cash stays, for owners to book, or to fill waitlists…or for any other reason DVC wants them.

So, the answer is that yes, any last minute cancelations can then be used toward breakage income, in which we get 2.5% of operational costs credit from it. The rest goes to BVTC and DVC..it is spelled out exactly in the contract.

 

[MillauFr]

Why don't you just sell your DVC contracts and just rent DVC rooms on Redweek?

 

[atthebeachclub]

Why don't you just sell your DVC contracts and just rent DVC rooms on Redweek?

High markup on that; would probably be a net negative financial move for somebody planning to go year after year.

 

[samsp99]

Yes, that was the thought I had initially, but then I realized- so many of those are last minute reservations. What happens to them when the third party cancels the booking? Do they go straight to breakage rooms that Disney can sell?

Can they adjust the points used for another booking to use the points, so the seller doesn't miss out. As you say disney can probably recycle the rooms into cash stays themselves. But I am sure Disney would rather be selling non-dvc rooms at a higher rate to those customers directly.

 

[MillauFr]

I know you are being snarky (why?), but that's exactly what I'm leaning towards doing. If something isn't done about resellers, I will sell my contracts and rent when I decide to go. I'm not going to jump through hoops to get my early December bookings every year.

I was not being snarky. If you are truly upset by Disney doing this to you why on earth would you do business with them? Boost Mobile screwed me over recently and I promptly cancelled service and requested a credit card charge back which I received. Life is too short to be annoyed. I refuse to do business with any company that annoys me.

 

[ak517]

I think about this a lot with respect to the AKV value rooms. I remember last year seeing days and days of value studios available for rent on several rental sites (can’t remember the specifics now) but it’s definitely a noticeable issue. If I want a value studio I will usually walk it for weeks (usually taking a few attempts to secure it to begin with), simply because there are more sharks in the water.

 

[CastAStone]

It’s an existential problem for DVC in the very long term because if word gets out that you shouldn’t bother because all the good rooms go to bots, like if that’s page 1 when you’re sitting in the timeshare presentation and google search “DVC” on your phone, that’s a huge reason to say no.

They need to enforce the commercial renting provisions they already have in their contracts.

 

[lowlight]

I was not being snarky. If you are truly upset by Disney doing this to you why on earth would you do business with them? Boost Mobile screwed me over recently and I promptly cancelled service and requested a credit card charge back which I received. Life is too short to be annoyed. I refuse to do business with any company that annoys me.

A cellphone contract and 60k+ worth of timeshare ownership is not exactly a fair comparison. I am going to do my best to get Disney to change (hah), and if they won't, then yes, the exit door is in my future. I like to fight for what I believe is right, especially when I stand to lose on selling.

 

[MillauFr]

A cellphone contract and 60k+ worth of timeshare ownership is not exactly a fair comparison. I am going to do my best to get Disney to change (hah), and if they won't, then yes, the exit door is in my future. I like to fight for what I believe is right, especially when I stand to lose on selling.

You are right. They are different. Unless people start dumping DVC Disney has no reason to change. If enough people complain and take action then Disney will make changes. You have right to be annoyed at them. I agree it is a sleazy tactic on the 3rd party resellers.

 

[Sandisw]

I realize this is a topic that people want to discuss and they can, but as I said, you can not discuss what any business is doing if that business is in our board's filter. The owners of this site set the rules as to why and we mods are not privy to that. I really do hate to delete posts and/or warn posters.

So, please preview the website link ahead of time....if it shows up, its good to go....if not, then talking about them is a no no. And yes, I know that there is a business out there people want to discuss but cant.

 

[Chuck S]

And how do you propose DVC/Disney change the rules so that the change also does not negatively impact other totally innocent DVC Owners even more than the current issue? I have not seen one proposal that would accomplish that.

For instance, you could say that DVC does not allow any reservation more than 7 months out where the owner is not the primary on the reservation. But what would that accompolish, since the primary could then be changed at 7 months, and it could prevent DVC owners with large families that need more than one room from booking during the 11/7 window at their home resort. For instance, every few years, I take a party of 16 people in 3 rooms. There is no DVC Room that will accomodate that large of a group, and there would be no way to insure that we could travel together without booking during the 11 month window, especially when at least one of those rooms rooms has to be handicap accessible.

You could say that any change in the occupant's names means a cancellation and rebook, but I'm doubtful the Florida timeshare regulators would go for that, since we specifically have the right to rent points and reservations. And it would very negatively impact owners that need to cancel for some sort of emergency near the end of their use year.

Could they prohibit the use of a broker? I doubt it. How would DVC know if the reservation had been brokered, as the broker would not be the person making/changing the reservatoin, only the DVC Owner can do that. And owners would simplly use sites like DIS and other listing sites rather than go through a broker.

Can they place limitations upon how the timeshare is deeded, so corporations would not be owners? Again, doubtful, as corporations and trusts have the same rights as individuals.

There are already limits on the total number of points and entity can own, but again there are many legal ways an individual can control thousand of points, by owning through multiple corporations and trusts, and being deeded with multiple family members.

DVC is what it is. If it becomes too stressful for you, then it is the time to sell or gift it to someone in your family that wants it.

In almost every workable solution I've ever seen proposed the solution is either much worse for the membership as a whole than the current issue, or it really wouldn't solve anything.

 

[CastAStone]

And how do you propose DVC/Disney change the rules so that the change also does not negatively impact other totally innocent DVC Owners even more than the current issue? I have not seen one proposal that would accomplish that.

For instance, you could say that DVC does not allow any reservation more than 7 months out where the owner is not the primary on the reservation. But would that accompolish, since the primary could then be changed at 7 months, and it could prevent DVC owners with large families that need more than one room from booking during the 11/7 window at their home resort. For instance, every few years, I take a party of 16 people in 3 rooms. There is no DVC Room that will accomodate that large of a group, and there would be no way to insure that we could travel together without booking during the 11 month window, especially when at least one of those rooms rooms has to be handicap accessible.

You could say that any change in the occupant's names means a cancellation and rebook, but I'm doubtful the Florida timeshare regulators would go for that, since we specifically have the right to rent points and reservations. And it would very negatively impact owners that need to cancel for some sort of emergency near the end of their use year.

Could they prohibit the use of a broker? I doubt it. How would DVC know if the reservation had been brokered, as the broker would not be the person making/changing the reservatoin, only the DVC Owner can do that. And owners would simplly use sites like DIS and other listing sites rather than go through a broker.

Can they place limitations upon how the timeshare is deeded, so corporations would not be owners? Again, doubtful, as corporations and trusts have the same rights as individuals.

There are already limits on the total number of points and entity can own, but again there are many legal ways an individual can control thousand of points, by owning through multiple corporations and trusts, and being deeded with multiple family members.

DVC is what it is. If it becomes too s tressful for you, then it is the time to sell or gift it to someone in your family that wants it.

In almost every workable solution I've ever seen proposed the solution is either much worse for the membership as a whole than the current issue, or it really wouldn't solve anything.

They don’t need new rules. They just need to enforce the ones in the POS about point maximums and commercial renting.

I liked this idea, click through to read more.

The best I’ve come up with is adding a check box where DVC point reservations are added to MDE. Put it right on the page with the other ‘Agree’ check box that exists. “If this is a point rental you must check this box to confirm you understand a rental contract is required.”

 

[Chuck S]

They don’t need new rules. They just need to enforce the ones in the POS about point maximums and commercial renting.

I liked this idea, click through to read more.

They have defined commercial renting many years ago as 20 or more reservations per year per membership, without an owner being the primary. None of us have access to see if these reservatons violate that policy.

And assuming all of the reservations being offered are actually in the name of the owner, until such a time as the primary name is changed AFTER it is rented, it would be difficult to legally prove the intent of the owner with a check-box at the time of reservation. All the owner has to say is, "Yes, I intended to use that resservation, but something came up, and I could not go." It would then be upon DVC to prove otherwise. Adding those lawyer and legal fees to our dues.

Remember, offering reservations in a post like "XYZ Resort studio, December 1 to 10, $2,500, payment due upon proof of name change" IS, legally speaking, a contract when the renter accepts those terms and makes a payment.

 

[GoingSince1990]

They have defined commercial renting many years ago as 20 or more reservation s per year per membership, without an owner being the primary. None of us have access to see if these reservatons violate that policy.

The fact that I have never seen a post here or anywhere else where someone says “oops, I went over 20 reservations per year and got a call from Disney” makes me wonder whether they are even enforcing that restriction.

 

[Sandisw]

They don’t need new rules. They just need to enforce the ones in the POS about point maximums and commercial renting.

I liked this idea, click through to read more.

I can see something like that being used, but not sure how it provides DVC with anything more than they already have. Brokers use contracts, don't they.
DVC already has a system in place that allows them to review any membership that exceeds what DVC currently uses to define a membership being used outside the lines of the contracts.

And, while what we see in terms of # of rentals out there, by lots of different sources, appears that DVC has done nothing, we technically don't know what exactly is going on behind the scences in terms of their oversight.

But, it comes down to other potential problems, at least IMO, in that there are now ways, with the advancement of technology, for owners to grab rooms...whether for personal use or rentals, doesn't matter...using bots. If that is happening, and many say it must be, then that is something I'd like to see DVC do something about, assuming it can, without making it more difficult for all owners to book.

I would hate to go back to phone calls only...they won't because it costs them money to do that...or the days where booking was from check out....