The Virgin Birth

[Saxsoon]

No, it's not possible. Science has proven that. If it was possible, it would have happened again, and been proven objectively, through science.

Kathee

Like the Big Bang . . . oh wait.

Btw, I believe God used the Big Bang, and that they go hand in hand.

And apparently, there have already been two "virgin" births of sharks that have been recorded.

 

[MrsPete]

Well I have to admit, there are times I'm skeptical.
I know some of Faith who go the whole 9 yards - not only was the birth of Jesus a virgin birth, but the birth of Mary herself was an Immaculate Conception, and Mary remained a Virgin her whole life.

The idea of Mary remaining a virgin her whole life is pretty much a Catholic idea, and I don't quite have a handle on why they think this is so important.

The Bible says that Joseph (after learning from an angel of Mary's condition and how it happened) married her and kept her a virgin until after Jesus' birth. The Bible does say that Jesus had siblings, but some scholars believe (based upon other texts, not the Bible) that Joseph was an older widower who already had children. None of the texts specify whether Jesus was the oldest or the youngest child in the family, but does any of that really make any difference to the way we should live our lives today?

Same way with the whole alleged relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene. I don't know if it is true or not, but it isn't of primary importance to me.

The whole Mary Magdalene thing is a product of current-day novelists. None of it can be supported from the Bible.

 

[Mikelly1221]

I voted yes that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. I also do not believe that Mary was sinless, and I do believe that Mary and Joseph went on to have other children, so she did not stay a virgin.

In the book of Isaiah (Isaiah 7:14), the virginity of the Messiah's mother is a sign given by God showing that the child is indeed the Son of God. No virginity means God was a liar and cannot fulfill His own prophecies. So, IMO the virgin birth is very necessary.

 

[Lanshark]

The reason it came up was someone said that Larry King was interviewed once and asked if he could have lunch with someone who would it be. He said several people and Jesus was one. When pressed for why Jesus, he said something about wanting to know if it was really a virgin birth because that was such a big issue.

It just made me wonder if people really believe she was a virgin or not.

The reason I think it was important was for a few reasons...one being that if she had not been a virgin, it could have easily been said that the baby was really Joseph's (or someone else's) and it would not be very miraculous and if He was not the Son of God, then He would be just be like every other human who lived, maybe considered just a great person or something.

Anyway, thanks for all who answered and commented. It was interesting to read the poll results and read the thoughts of posters.

The resurrection is, IMO, the foundation of Christianity. Without the resurrection, there is no Christianity.
It is an interesting topic though. I do believe Mary was a virgin but even if this was not the case I don't think it would eliminate the possibility that Jesus was the Son of God.

 

[MrsPete]

So...Mary and Joseph were married, they decided to not have sex, and Mary got pregnant? If I were Joseph I know I'd be thinking some bad thoughts about this whole situation. And to top it all off Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life? Darn, Joseph must have been a real saint to go through all of that.

No, they were ENGAGED to be married. During that time, the angel of the Lord came to her and told her she would conceive miraculously.

The Bible doesn't tell us whether she went and told Joseph herself, or whether he recognized her growing size, or just how everyone else became aware of the situation. Joseph, of course, knew that he hadn't slept with her, yet she was obviously pregnant. It was within his rights as her fiance to have her stoned to death; the Bible says he wasn't willing to go that far, but he was thinking of cancelling their marriage contract. This would've been the ruin of Mary; no one else ever would've married her after such a disgrace, and a "fallen woman" would've been doomed to live in terrible poverty all her life, not even deserving the charity of her community. While he was deliberating, an angel came (in a dream) and told him that Mary was innocent of all wrong and that he was to have the priviledge of caring for Mary and Jesus. After that, of course, he believed her and went ahead with their marriage. It had to be tough for them both.

You're right: he must've been a saint! But then, God didn't just choose Mary as the perfect vessel for His son. He chose Jospeph to act as His earthly father -- no small task, so naturally it had to fall to a man of unquestionable character, morality, and religious faith.

 

[Buckalew11]

I agree with you Marcie. had jesus christ not rose from the dead then he would have been just a really good man who lived and died. Again, God did a spernatural act when Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Cool-Beans]

You know what I have trouble with? All these miracles happening all over the place and then NONE for a gazillion years.

And I don't mean the DIS, "Jesus helped me find my paperwork" miracles. I mean parting of the Red Sea, rising from the dead, making the blind see...that sort of miracle.

I have a very, very difficult time with a virgin birth. I *suppose* God could have pulled it off - He's God and if He says He did, I gotta believe Him...but I took a bunch of Anatomy and also studied pregnancy/labor...and it would be difficult to have a baby without any sperm in the first place.

Again, God's God. He could do it. But why a whole crapload of miracles for all those folks and none for us?

I want a miracle. Even one every 1000 years.

It's wrong to doubt your faith...and deep, deep down I do believe it all...but I have doubts.

So, that's that for me.

And if Larry King wanted to know about the virgin birth, he ought to have dinner with Mary, not Jesus.

 

[Buckalew11]

You know what I have trouble with? All these miracles happening all over the place and then NONE for a gazillion years.

And I don't mean the DIS, "Jesus helped me find my paperwork" miracles. I mean parting of the Red Sea, rising from the dead, making the blind see...that sort of miracle.

I have a very, very difficult time with a virgin birth. I *suppose* God could have pulled it off - He's God and if He says He did, I gotta believe Him...but I took a bunch of Anatomy and also studied pregnancy/labor...and it would be difficult to have a baby without any sperm in the first place.

Again, God's God. He could do it. But why a whole crapload of miracles for all those folks and none for us?

I want a miracle. Even one every 1000 years.

It's wrong to doubt your faith...and deep, deep down I do believe it all...but I have doubts.

So, that's that for me.

And if Larry King wanted to know about the virgin birth, he ought to have dinner with Mary, not Jesus.

1) I think God still performs miracles.
2)LOL, I loved the Jesus helped me find my paperwork miracle!! It was a DIS favorite of mine, in fact!!
3)I thought the same thing about Larry King! Why ask Jesus? Doesn't every say their parents do not have sex?
Mary is the one to ask!!

And finally, the reason I don't think we *see* miracles like we read about in the Bible might be that was God's way of showing Himself here.

At Pentecost, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us. When we accept Jesus as savior, the Holy Spirit then dwells within us.(you know, body is the temple and all that) Used to, God's Spirit came and went from the earth. After Jesus's ascension, the Spirit dwells here within us and will remain until the end of the age of grace when God will remove His Spirit.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on that.

 

[jimmiej]

Yes, I believe Mary was a virgin.

 

[smartestnumber5]

just curious- but how has it been proven impossible through science that asexual birth is impossible?

Quite the oppostie in fact, imho. There are no proven documented cases of human asexual reproduction, but it has certainly occurred in other species.

This is an off topic sciency question, but if Jesus was a product of asexual reproduction wouldn't he have had to be female (and perhaps even a genetic copy of Mary)?

I assume the only kind of asexual reproduction that has any shot of occurring in humans is parthenogenesis. But, then since the Y chromosome in humans is not found in egg cells, but in sperm cells, any human created by parthenogenesis would have to be female, right?


So if Mary really was a virgin (a virgin of the kind who has really had NO exposure to sperm since there are rare cases of "technical" virgins getting pregnant), then I don't see how it could possibly be explained by any natural process (unless she was actually a spore or a unicellular organism, in which case other kinds of asexual reproduction would be possible).

But then I thought that was the point--it's supposed to be a miracle right? Something that breaks the laws of nature and hence is 100% physically impossible--isn't that the definition of a miracle?

 

[Gagirl69]

It's one of those things that means absolutely nothing to me. Whether Mary was a virgin or not won't make a single bit of difference in my life, in my religion, or my relationship with God.

I've never quite understood the importance many secs and churches place on her virginity.

Because it shows how all powerful and mighty God really it. That is why its important. I just has this lesson with my sunday school class last sunday. The angel appeared to Mary and told her she would carry God's son. Mary told the angel she would do as God wants her to. I believe God asked this of Mary because he knew Joseph (loving God also) would support Mary. Joseph could have easily washed his hands of her but he knew this was an act of God. So, yes I absolutely believe baby Jesus was born to a virgin. I don't believe she remained a virgin. I would think her and joseph had relations after they were married. The Bible never really says. (King James Version)

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Fascinating discussion, Bren and everyone else who posted.

But my response is...I don't know what I believe. I enjoyed reading this though, and perhaps I'll give it some more thought. I haven't thought much about religious topics since I graduated from Catholic school many years ago. And one of the things I remember most is in my signature. That, and that girls must NEVER forget their beanies for First Friday Mass.

 

[SomedayI'llBe]

You know what I have trouble with? All these miracles happening all over the place and then NONE for a gazillion years.

And I don't mean the DIS, "Jesus helped me find my paperwork" miracles. I mean parting of the Red Sea, rising from the dead, making the blind see...that sort of miracle.

I have a very, very difficult time with a virgin birth. I *suppose* God could have pulled it off - He's God and if He says He did, I gotta believe Him...but I took a bunch of Anatomy and also studied pregnancy/labor...and it would be difficult to have a baby without any sperm in the first place.

Again, God's God. He could do it. But why a whole crapload of miracles for all those folks and none for us?

Miracles do happen in modern times. We just don't have a text that documents them- Catholics do document some, however. While I'm definitely not Catholic, I do believe that God is still active in modern times. Besides, with as advanced as science is, many times things can be explained away. But some medical miracles still occur, and many doctors are not afraid to call them what they are- a miracle. God still works within my life to this day, and I am a firm believer that He works within everyones.

This is an off topic sciency question, but if Jesus was a product of asexual reproduction wouldn't he have had to be female (and perhaps even a genetic copy of Mary)?

Technically, I suppose. But I firmly believe that this was a miracle that no science can explain. I'm also a firm believer in God working through science- I feel you can see His handiwork all over the intricacies of the human body. But sometimes, there is no explanation. This is one of those times.

 

[bdprem]

I think,if you are a Muslim, Chistan,you may belive marry was vergin.But,if you are not trust on religion,you never believe.I am confused.So,I have no comments.

 

[Galahad]

It's wrong to doubt your faith..

Actually, from a Christian standpoint this is not true. Doubt and skepticism is acknowledged and encouraged and supported by scripture. We have a lot more Pharisees in Christianity today than we ever should given our history - but that's human nature I suppose. Jesus was really quite anti-religion.

 

[beattyfamily]

Yes, I believe what the Catholic Church believes, that she was a virgin and remind one her whole life and that Jesus has no siblings.

 

[amyhughes]

Just curious...why is that, to you, infuriating if it is what the God that you believe in made to be? Ref: Genesis 3:13-20

Because I actually don't follow with the Garden of Eden story as a fundamentalist would. Nor do I think God created the world in 7 days.

 

[jimmiej]

This is an off topic sciency question, but if Jesus was a product of asexual reproduction wouldn't he have had to be female (and perhaps even a genetic copy of Mary)?

I assume the only kind of asexual reproduction that has any shot of occurring in humans is parthenogenesis. But, then since the Y chromosome in humans is not found in egg cells, but in sperm cells, any human created by parthenogenesis would have to be female, right?


So if Mary really was a virgin (a virgin of the kind who has really had NO exposure to sperm since there are rare cases of "technical" virgins getting pregnant), then I don't see how it could possibly be explained by any natural process (unless she was actually a spore or a unicellular organism, in which case other kinds of asexual reproduction would be possible).

But then I thought that was the point--it's supposed to be a miracle right? Something that breaks the laws of nature and hence is 100% physically impossible--isn't that the definition of a miracle?

Jesus wasn't a product of asexual reproduction. The Bible says Mary was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit, i.e. God.

 

[Cool-Beans]

1) I think God still performs miracles.
2)LOL, I loved the Jesus helped me find my paperwork miracle!! It was a DIS favorite of mine, in fact!!
3)I thought the same thing about Larry King! Why ask Jesus? Doesn't every say their parents do not have sex?
Mary is the one to ask!!

And finally, the reason I don't think we *see* miracles like we read about in the Bible might be that was God's way of showing Himself here.

At Pentecost, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us. When we accept Jesus as savior, the Holy Spirit then dwells within us.(you know, body is the temple and all that) Used to, God's Spirit came and went from the earth. After Jesus's ascension, the Spirit dwells here within us and will remain until the end of the age of grace when God will remove His Spirit.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on that.

Some moments my faith is stronger than others. I really do believe that Mary was a virgin. If God could set up something as intricate as the human body and put in place all the bazillion things that need to happen for a baby to be born, He could certainly find Himself a Godly Loophole (or a "back door" like the computer people say) for that whole sperm issue. We don't even know yet just why a woman's body doesn't reject the child as foreign matter. So, as of now, technically...the birth of every child is almost a miracle.

Still want a big miracle, though. I could read all day long about Cinderella castle. I could see pictures and watch it on TV. Did that, once upon a time. But the first time I stood on Main Street, it was a different ballgame.

I'd like a miracle that I don't have to just read about, especially since I don't actually read about them. Just one would be fine. NO WINTER in Ohio would be a great miracle (just in case God is DISing today and would like to know which miracle I'd prefer.)

 

[Lanshark]

Sometimes Faith is a very tough thing to hold on to. I go through times when I question the whole thing because "it doesn't make sense". There are other times when I can almost touch it because it is so real. I struggle, question and pray. I used to feel guilty about having doubt but
I don't think it wrong to question. In fact, I think it very healthy.

I love a good spirited, but respectful, discussion on the topics of religion or politics. This has been a very interesting thread.