The Virgin Birth

[amyhughes]

The Catholic Church is very insistent (Dogmatic) on these beliefs:

Mary was conceived immaculately, so that she was free from Original Sin and could be the perfect (sinless) vessel for Jesus.

She was a Virgin when she gave birth to Christ.

Christ's birth was painless due to the fact that Mary was born without Original Sin, therefore the pain that Eve loosed among her fellow women had no hold on Mary or her birth.

Mary remained a Virgin the rest of her life and was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Feast of the Assumption is August 15th.

Now, do I as a Catholic woman think that these beliefs are inherent and total, yes and no. To say that woman is to blame for the pain of childbirth etc. is infuriating. Do I think it possible that Jesus was conceived immaculately, yes. That the only way a woman could be virtuous is to be sexless is another misogynistic quality of old religion I don't necessarily hold with. I have truly mixed feelings about how Mary's role is treated over the past 2,000 years.

 

[Dan Murphy]

This is a family board, I think the title is offensive

To answer question, yes.

 

[ICF]

In fact there are many references in the Bible to Jesus having siblings.

In what bible does it mention Jesus having a brother or sister?

 

[KSchwagg86]

To say that woman is to blame for the pain of childbirth etc. is infuriating.

Just curious...why is that, to you, infuriating if it is what the God that you believe in made to be? Ref: Genesis 3:13-20

 

[Lanshark]

In what bible does it mention Jesus having a brother or sister?

This may be of some help.

Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"

Answer: Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Later, in Galatians 1:19, it mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for cousin, and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage, before he married Mary. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no Biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: "But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus" (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

 

[okeydokey]

The Catholic Church is very insistent (Dogmatic) on these beliefs:

Mary was conceived immaculately, so that she was free from Original Sin and could be the perfect (sinless) vessel for Jesus.

She was a Virgin when she gave birth to Christ.

Christ's birth was painless due to the fact that Mary was born without Original Sin, therefore the pain that Eve loosed among her fellow women had no hold on Mary or her birth.

Mary remained a Virgin the rest of her life and was assumed into Heaven, body and soul. Feast of the Assumption is August 15th.

Now, do I as a Catholic woman think that these beliefs are inherent and total, yes and no. To say that woman is to blame for the pain of childbirth etc. is infuriating. Do I think it possible that Jesus was conceived immaculately, yes. That the only way a woman could be virtuous is to be sexless is another misogynistic quality of old religion I don't necessarily hold with. I have truly mixed feelings about how Mary's role is treated over the past 2,000 years.

I am a Catholic and I was never taught that the birth of Jesus was painless, nor that Mary remained a virgin her whole life.

 

[Buckalew11]

So...Mary and Joseph were married, they decided to not have sex, and Mary got pregnant? If I were Joseph I know I'd be thinking some bad thoughts about this whole situation. And to top it all off Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life? Darn, Joseph must have been a real saint to go through all of that.

Bill, they were betrothed. That was a legal, ceremonial type thing but the marriage was not consumated at the time. I am thinking people remained betrothed for about 1 year. If they had separated during that time, a divorce would have een needed so it was more than an engagement period. During that time, they were to stay faithful to each other.

When Joseph found out Mary was pregnant, he thought about quietly divorcing her. Can anyone blame him? But, her pregnancy would have shown or it would have been discovered soon enough why they were no longer together. As an adulturer, she could have been stoned to death. I am sure all this was hard on both of them.

The Bible says that God revealed to Joseph in a dream what was happening and that after this he soon married her. The did not consumate the marriage until after the baby was born.

This is a family board, I think the title is offensive

I am sorry I offended you by the title of my thread. I was in a hurry and did not get clever with it--just straight and to the point.

 

[ntsammy5]

Like the bible, a good story .... but not necessarily true.

 

[DisMN]

Buckalew, what a great topic of discussion! I find all the ideas and opinions very interesting ........

 

[Buckalew11]

The reason it came up was someone said that Larry King was interviewed once and asked if he could have lunch with someone who would it be. He said several people and Jesus was one. When pressed for why Jesus, he said something about wanting to know if it was really a virgin birth because that was such a big issue.

It just made me wonder if people really believe she was a virgin or not.

The reason I think it was important was for a few reasons...one being that if she had not been a virgin, it could have easily been said that the baby was really Joseph's (or someone else's) and it would not be very miraculous and if He was not the Son of God, then He would be just be like every other human who lived, maybe considered just a great person or something.

Anyway, thanks for all who answered and commented. It was interesting to read the poll results and read the thoughts of posters.

 

[amyhughes]

I am a Catholic and I was never taught that the birth of Jesus was painless, nor that Mary remained a virgin her whole life.

I'm sponsoring my DH through RCIA and believe it or not this was discussed today, at length.

 

[GeorgeG]

I do not believe Mary was a virgin.

 

[disykat]

I could argue both ways, but I really don't care.

 

[chisnpeke]

Yes I do.

 

[KatheeME]

No, it's not possible. Science has proven that. If it was possible, it would have happened again, and been proven objectively, through science.

Kathee

 

[Soarin08]

I agree.

I absolutely believe that Mary was a virgin and in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. As for Christ having siblings, that I don't believe. Yes, it says in the Bible that he had brothers, but brother didn't always mean "sibling" - it meant cousin or other relative as well as actual brother.

I agree with you 100%. And I also don't believe Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married either, something else that often comes up.

 

[Galahad]

This topic came up today in discussion and I was wondering if you are a believer in God and a follower of Jesus Christ, do you really believe Mary was indeed a virgin who gave birth?
If you would share how important this concept is or is not to your faith, I'd like to hear that also.

Thanks!

I am a convinced Christian. I do believe that Mary was a virgin, yes. But to answer your other question - Jesus' death and resurrection are the central events. Much more important. But the very notion of Jesus - God made flesh - is why the circumstances of his birth are also important. I agree with Shortbun in that (in my words) it would be quite helpful if Christians paid a lot more attention to the Jesus actually said and did than to what others say about what he said and did and we'd probably be living closer to what he would have taught.

 

[Galahad]

proven objectively, through science.

Kathee

It has been proven that Mary was not a virgin? Wow, really?

 

[Buckalew11]

No, it's not possible. Science has proven that. If it was possible, it would have happened again, and been proven objectively, through science.

Kathee

Actually, this was brought up in a way in the conversation--God performed a supernatural act.
So, if one has a problem with the supernatural, I think one would automatically have trouble with this concept.

I don't think it ever happened before and don't see any reason for it to ever happen again. Thanks for the comment!!

Galahad, I understand what you are saying. The virgin birth was not something I really ever thought a whole lot about before. I think you are right that it is important to who Jesus was.

 

[RitaE]

No, it's not possible. Science has proven that. If it was possible, it would have happened again, and been proven objectively, through science.

Kathee

just curious- but how has it been proven impossible through science that asexual birth is impossible?

Quite the oppostie in fact, imho. There are no proven documented cases of human asexual reproduction, but it has certainly occurred in other species.