The Vilification Of Renting?

[JimMIA]

Let me first preface my remarks by saying that I do not rent, and have no plans to do so.

I think we make a LOT of assumptions here. And most of them are made based on isolated anecdotes of perceived problems. The fact is, none of us know for sure. None of us have any real data. We're all guessing and assuming...and you know what happens when we assume.

We hear that it is becoming more and more difficult to book anything inside the seven month window -- but noone in my family has ever had a problem. We have three families using our account, and probably 80% of our trips are booked in the seven-month window...and yet, we have no problem. In fact, many DVC owners have posted here that they have never had a problem booking in the seven-month window.

We hear that last-minute trips are difficult to book. Duh! They've always been more difficult to book because a) most of the availability is already gone, and b) you are competing not only with all 100,000+ DVC owners, but also with every other human being with a telephone or computer. (Both of my daughters, incidentally, routinely book their vacations inside of TWO months from arrival.)

We hear that renting is rampant. But when I check Redweek, as suggested, I found only 19 rentals listed over a 7-month period...and absolutely nothing that looked speculative. On the DIS DVC Rent/Trade board, I found 18 people looking to rent a ressie from a DVC owner on the first page (which is the only page anyone will likely look at). These are not numbers which will terrorize DVC managers.

We hear that hundreds of greedy commercial renters callously book thousands of week-long vacations, on speculation, during peak periods. Yet no matter where you go, or when you go there, you will find only a handful of actual booked weeks offered for rental.

But noone can show you anything more than an isolated occurance of difficulty booking, rentals, or speculative rentals here and there.

Considering the size of DVC and the number of villas available and the number of nights in a specific peak period, there would have to be hundreds of rental bookings to have any effect at all. I've never seen any indication whatsoever of that kind of volume.

I'm not from the "Show Me State;" I'm from the "A little more sunblock on the left shoulder, please, State." But absent any actual proof that an actual problem exists, I tend to take a lot of this with a generous helping of salt.

If someone can show me hundreds of rental bookings, I'll start foaming at the mouth with the best of the rental critics. But I don't see them. And until I see at least some believable indication of large numbers of rentals, I'm going to remain a skeptic about renting being a problem.

 

[DVC Mike]

We hear that renting is rampant. But when I check Redweek, as suggested, I found only 19 rentals listed over a 7-month period...and absolutely nothing that looked speculative. On the DIS DVC Rent/Trade board, I found 18 people looking to rent a ressie from a DVC owner on the first page (which is the only page anyone will likely look at). These are not numbers which will terrorize DVC managers.

We hear that hundreds of greedy commercial renters callously book thousands of week-long vacations, on speculation, during peak periods. Yet no matter where you go, or when you go there, you will find only a handful of actual booked weeks offered for rental.

But noone can show you anything more than an isolated occurance of difficulty booking, rentals, or speculative rentals here and there.

If someone can show me hundreds of rental bookings, I'll start foaming at the mouth with the best of the rental critics. But I don't see them. And until I see at least some believable indication of large numbers of rentals, I'm going to remain a skeptic about renting being a problem.

No one that I'm aware of (even DVC) really knows how much renting, in fact, occurs. There are many places to advertise, including Ebay, Craigslist, redbook, Mouse@wners, The DIS, Daddio's site (where no one but David know's the volume). DVC itself doesn't have a complete picture of what may or may not be happenning.

So yes, I have've seen any hard facts (since they appear impossible to come by) that shows, without any doubt, that commercial renting and speculative booking is going on, and how often it occurs. However, that doesn't mean its not happening either. The lack of hard evidence doesn't really prove anything.

 

[JimMIA]

DVC itself doesn't have a complete picture of what may or may not be happenning.

DVC should have a pretty good idea of the volume. If they don't, it's only because they don't care to invest the money and effort to look. The info is right there in the account histories.

The lack of hard evidence doesn't really prove anything.

Well, it proves there's no hard evidence!

If there was a real problem, I'd expect to see something! I wouldn't expect to see positive proof, but I'd expect to see more than a once-every-three-months anecdote which might indicate a problem...or might indicate a lazy owner.

 

[Blahnde]

So you're saying one reason it has been getting harder to book a DVC reservation is because of owner's renting their points?

What I said was that more optimum usage than expected (95% instead of 85%, in my example) is what is making it more difficult to book a DVC reservation.

And my personal opinion about one of the primary ways that members use their membership more efficiently is by renting. Is it the only way to maximize the use of your points? No! Is it a way that some members do? Yes! I will also say that having a board like this, a place that helps owners understand the ins and outs of their membership, is another contributing factor. A factor, that I might add, that I doubt DVC anticipated when they came up with the original DVC plan.

Remember back 15 years ago when most of us were not on the internet yet ... I know some of you were, but most of us were not! Without a member message board, without a Rent/Trade board, without e-mail even how would renting to anyone other than friends and relatives even be possible? It wouldn't be, and that was the world in which DVC formulated its DVC financial plan/model. How could they know that renting, casual, commercial, or speculative, would become so mainstream? I suspect that they looked at their own occupancy rates and that of other timeshares and expected the same basic results. They expected waste and initially got it; but now they don't have it (or at least not as much) and they have tried to figure out why. And, heck, if I can figure it out then I am sure high priced, Ivy League educated, Disney-payrolled analysts can, too!

And while I fully admit that I could be wrong that DVC point occupancy is at mid-90% and CRO occupancy is at mid-80% to make the 89% reported average, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do some basic checking. I have been sitting on a waitlist since mid-December for a Savannah view studio for 12 nights in May ... so far I have 8 of the 12 nights. I could book a studio at BWV, or OKW, or SSR, or even Savannah View at AKV right now for cash through CRO! Oh, and this 208 point reservation would cost $5,941 through CRO ... that is over $28.50 per point and you wonder why people rent? I just cannot see any way that anyone could argue that availability through DVC and CRO are similar. And to get the 89% reported average with the two being vastly different, DVC has to be in the low- to mid-90% range. Yes, this information is anecdotal, but try it for yourself. I challenge anyone to find a lack of availability through CRO that can be filled by DVC.

As stated before, I have no problem with renting or renters because I strongly believe in maximizing your assets (whatever they may be!), but Disney does have a problem with renting. They have come out and specifically told members that they do. They can say they only have a problem with commercial or speculative renters, but that could be like when they told us the new $95 fee for Disney Collection bookings was for upgrading the phone system ... come on now! They have a problem with renting, period, otherwise they would not be spending so much effort trying to stop it. Some may argue that it is for the good of the ownership, but while I agree that stopping/minimizing renting may improve availability which is "good" for owners, increasing "waste" is only good for Disney!

Blahnde

 

[johde]

I think the whole issue is that DVD has more points to rent through CRO then they have people wanting to rent. They are looking at every way possible to improve this imbalance.

There are several things that seem to show this imbalance.
1. Upgrading Value resorts to SSR and OKW during September.
2. Prime weeks available through CRO on short notice. (As mentioned above Easter weekend is available at all DVC resorts)
3. Increased complaints on the boards of no DVC availability but plenty of CRO availability.

IMO They are hoping to improve demand by.
1. Limiting commercial renting (20 reservations a year)
2. Limiting speculative renting (rumored name change rules)

They are also looking Supply Side
1. $95 fee for WDW resort (not DVC reservation)
2. Reduction in hotels available for per night reservation (Concierge Collection).
3. Encouragement of use II for trades (No Points go to CRO)
4. Working on sort week trades through II.
5. Might also put Hawaii DVC in this list (most popular trade destination).

So, I see the renting rules as part of a bigger picture of knee jerk reaction.

 

[JimMIA]

What I said was that more optimum usage than expected (95% instead of 85%, in my example) is what is making it more difficult to book a DVC reservation.

And my personal opinion about one of the primary ways that members use their membership more efficiently is by renting.

As I said above, we're all guessing. But I think there are several other factors that are much more important to difficulty booking...if, in fact, there is any real difficulty booking.

One important factor is the sheer growth and size of DVC over the last five years. It's true that capacity is directly correlated with number of memberships, but after the seven month window opens, not too many owners are fighting tooth and nail to get into OKW or SSR (those are my two home resorts, so I'm not dissing them).

At seven months, people are trying to get into the Epcot resorts or VWL. Where do we hear the occasional complaints? "I tried to book my home resort of BWV at four months, and I couldn't get in!" Duh -- so is everyone else, silly; and they have the same rights at four months as you do!

The other factor, I think is a temporary factor. That's the use of "developer points" as incentives to purchase SSR and AKV. Those points expire at the end of their UY, they cannot be banked, and they can only be used for bookings inside the seven month window. (And...oh, by the way, there won't be anything at AKV at seven months because only a fraction of the resort is actually open and all those villas are already booked.)

The developer points incentive puts a LOT more points out there to be used, and puts extreme pressure on using them quickly. I think that creates pressure on the availability which was not there a year or two ago. And...for whatever it's worth, the profusion of developer points also increases renting by new owners who simply can't use the points.

It is possible to quantify the growth in DVC. It is possible to quantify the infusion of developer points into the system.

We're guessing about rentals, and we're making those guesses the bogeyman for the problem of "difficulty booking" -- which might not even be a real problem in the first place. I know my family does 80% of our bookings within the seven-month window, and about half of them on very short notice, and we have no problems.

There IS one little niche of rentals I object to regardless of the volume. That is the speculative rentals during holidays and other peak periods. That's contrary to the intent of DVC and it's unfair to DVC families who want to use their points for their own vacations.

However, it's also something DVC could stop with the stroke of a pen if they wanted to. It doesn't affect them, so they don't.

 

[Blahnde]

On the DIS DVC Rent/Trade board, I found 18 people looking to rent a ressie from a DVC owner on the first page (which is the only page anyone will likely look at).

Considering the size of DVC and the number of villas available and the number of nights in a specific peak period, there would have to be hundreds of rental bookings to have any effect at all. I've never seen any indication whatsoever of that kind of volume.

I'm not from the "Show Me State;" I'm from the "A little more sunblock on the left shoulder, please, State." But absent any actual proof that an actual problem exists, I tend to take a lot of this with a generous helping of salt.

I want to elaborate on the first part of this quote. Part of the reason that you may only see 18 reservations for rent on the front page of the Rent/Trade board is that a few months ago (August or September, I believe) the Disboards decided that owners could only offer existing reservations at the 30 day mark. I will not give my opinion about this change, but will only say that the moderators said at the time of the change that it was done specifically to prevent the offering of speculative reservations. Therefore, only those truly "stuck" with a reservation after the 31-day-cancellation-without-holding would offer their reservations for rent. Because of this policy, those 18 represent only those reservations from 1/27 - 2/27 ... not the most popular time to go to WDW. And while I disagree about people only reading the first page and I think this 18 is a fairly low number for accurate representation, if you simply extrapolate those 18 as a per month figure to a one year figure you get 216 ... is that closer to the hundreds you were looking for? And this is only one board that has VERY limiting parameters on renting reservations.

I will also say that simply looking at reservations for rent (instead of points for rent) is a limiting way to get the real picture, and is really only attempting to look at speculative renting. I have personally been much more successful in renting points than renting a reservation. While I have not made speculative reservations, I have had point reservation deals fall through after making the reservation. In the three times I had this happen I tried to rent the reservation (pre-rule change) for a week or two each time and was unsuccessful. Since I was not "stuck" with the reservation, I cancelled it and simply rented the points, which was MUCH easier. What I am trying to say is that looking at reservations for rent is only a way to see speculative renting, not really commercial or casual renting. If you really want to see commercial or casual (mainly casual) renting in action, look at the numbers of points for rent at any given time ... much, much more accurate and much, much higher numbers!

I just checked because I was curious ... 3,582 points for rent on the first page alone! That is not counting the 3 closed threads for 412 points where they were already rented! At 160 points for a week (DVC's number, not mine!), that is almost 25 weeks of rentals ... on the front page alone! Add that to the 18 you found for the month and you are now at 516 rentals per year from this board! Are you starting to see why Disney finds this a problem?

As to your second point that the only way renting would matter is if represented hundreds or thousands of reservations (which it does!), I still disagree with the statement. Forget the volume; renting matters to Disney if it causes a single point to be used for which Disney did not plan/project and for which someone other than Disney is paid. It doesn't take thousands of rental weeks; it takes points that would have dropped to Disney's bottom line to be used instead for a point reservation. And those same points are used instead of a CRO reservation. It hurts Disney 2 ways: no "wasted" points to the bottom line, and a point reservation (that earns Disney nothing) instead of a CRO reservation.

I like the "more sunblock state" comment; funny! But as for proof that a problem exists, simply read the revised POSs and the new vacation planner. It doesn't matter if you or I or any owner thinks it is a problem or not; Disney thinks it is a problem! They have said they think it is a problem. They have devoted efforts to stop renting which can only mean they think it is a problem. What more proof do you want? It is a problem for Disney, period.

Blahnde

 

[Dean]

Anyone who wants to rent and has decided to reserve first, still has to call and reserve like anyone else. They have no advantage over anyone else in getting the first reservation for a given time frame and are at a disadvantage for each additional reservation due to the time it takes to complete the first. Anyone who wants one of these times or units types needs to call at exactly 11 months out when MS opens. It may be that some are better at planning and more conscientious on calling. They may also be better at using the rules in place such as the wait list. The idea that they have an unfair advantage in reserving is simply false.

 

[TisBit]

OK, I have been away from the discussion for a couple of days, but I will say that there are a lot of very good reasons for Disney to try to curb renting points. I am sure, as JimMIA has mentioned, there is not one driving factor, but numerous.

But if you think about Disney, I am sure just one guest a year that shows up after renting points and not having their reservation there, because the owner canceled, is too many. I am sure that even if membership perceives a problem, that in and of itself is a problem. How many times has Disney invested money to alleviate the perception of a problem. I mean, even Walt built WDW because he perceived a problem with DL! So the climate of Disney is a huge factor you have to look at. Not to mention the bottom dollar, that defintely helps.

But, even if renting has helped DVC, I am sure a number of those renters have went in and told their guide, I was here after renting points. I will buy this many points and if I can't use them I will just rent them! Again, Disney is going to perceive a problem. Maybe all of the stuff about renting is designed merely to help influence people not to buy additional points just to rent, or scare people away from renting! Maybe it will catch some people, but if it discourages others, it is even more worthwhile!

Just my two cents.

 

[snowbunny]

Anyone who wants to rent and has decided to reserve first, still has to call and reserve like anyone else. ......The idea that they have an unfair advantage in reserving is simply false.

I agree with this. However there have been alarmist comments on these boards in the past insisting that is not so: that so-called big-time renters have staffs of people all calling to reserve holiday weeks at 9 am at the 11-month mark.
Now everyone has been penalized with one transfer per year. JimMIA also makes great points regarding how completely speculative all of this is.

 

[Dean]

I agree with this. However there have been alarmist comments on these boards in the past insisting that is not so: that so-called big-time renters have staffs of people all calling to reserve holiday weeks at 9 am at the 11-month mark.
Now everyone has been penalized with one transfer per year. JimMIA also makes great points regarding how completely speculative all of this is.

The one transfer a year is a resurection of a longstanding rule so I don't see that as much of an issue. And there are those who have multiple people calling for reservations they plan to use as well so again, I see it as no different. Even if they have 100 people calling they can't get through any faster than any other member and are actually at a disadvantage and are more likely, not less, to not get what they want. What has happened was that many things have gotten more difficult to reserve and many have changed their reservation habits accordingly. SSR likely has a FAR greater impact on this issue than renting and that's true for other home resorts during the home resort window.

 

[tomandrobin]

I have been sitting on a waitlist since mid-December for a Savannah view studio for 12 nights in May ... so far I have 8 of the 12 nights. Oh, and this 208 point reservation would cost $5,941 through CRO ... that is over $28.50 per point and you wonder why people rent?

When I see numbers like that, it make me wonder why members consistently under sell thier points? It seems everything in the world has sky rocket in price the past 5 years, but DVC points for rent. I just don't get it. Especially when you look at the cost of maintence fees over the past 5 years.

 

[castleri]

As I said above, we're all guessing. But I think there are several other factors that are much more important to difficulty booking...if, in fact, there is any real difficulty booking.

The other factor, I think is a temporary factor. That's the use of "developer points" as incentives to purchase SSR and AKV. Those points expire at the end of their UY, they cannot be banked, and they can only be used for bookings inside the seven month window. (And...oh, by the way, there won't be anything at AKV at seven months because only a fraction of the resort is actually open and all those villas are already booked.)

The developer points incentive puts a LOT more points out there to be used, and puts extreme pressure on using them quickly. I think that creates pressure on the availability which was not there a year or two ago. And...for whatever it's worth, the profusion of developer points also increases renting by new owners who simply can't use the points.

It is possible to quantify the growth in DVC. It is possible to quantify the infusion of developer points into the system.

There IS one little niche of rentals I object to regardless of the volume. That is the speculative rentals during holidays and other peak periods. That's contrary to the intent of DVC and it's unfair to DVC families who want to use their points for their own vacations.

However, it's also something DVC could stop with the stroke of a pen if they wanted to. It doesn't affect them, so they don't.

ITA - It does seem that there have been more of the "it's harder to book threads" since the influx of developer points this past year and I hope that it is truly a temporary thing. People suddenly have extra points and that trip during Christmas vacation or Easter is now possible or even during the F&W time of year. Granted they have to be used at 7 months but it does add to the usage. The same family who had 160 points may now have 2-3 times that many with 2007 points, developer points and then 2008 points to use so stays longer, takes an extra trip, books during busy times or reserves a larger unit. I haven't yet figured out where those points come from. Are they the ones for declared units that haven't been sold or the ones they keep for maintenance etc? It seems as if they keep doing this it could upset the balance of points somewhere along the line.

I hope they do not eliminate renting as it provides a relief valve of sorts if someone can't use their points one year or need money to pay for their MFs because of some stoke of ill luck or if they want to take a cruise other than Disney and can use the money to pay for that. If people don't like renting and don't want to rent that is their option but for those that it could help out in a tough time I hope it is still allowed with Disney monitoring the frequency and taking action on individual cases if needed.

 

[Sammie]

In the last year or so there seems to be a concerted effort to restrict the ease with which members can rent out their points. We've recently seen point transfers restricted to one per year and renters no longer able to confirm reservations with MS. And now there are reports of warning letters going out to suspected commercial renters, anti-renting language being added to official documents, scrutiny of reservations by Members Services -- there's even a vague renting disclaimer that's been added to the new vacation planner.

Here is your proof that Disney has realized a problem. Whether any of us think it is or not, whether we have any access to numbers or not, Disney would have never taken these steps without a reason, it is affecting them and more than likely it is affecting thier pocket.

 

[kimberh]

When I see numbers like that, it make me wonder why members consistently under sell thier points? It seems everything in the world has sky rocket in price the past 5 years, but DVC points for rent. I just don't get it. Especially when you look at the cost of maintence fees over the past 5 years.

I agree with you, if renting is being restricted, and Disney is raising prices every year, then why are point reservations still so cheap??? This is probably why Disney is upset, the rooms are being given away. JMHO of course. It's all about money, nothing wrong with that. Better to be on the positive side of it then the neg. If, we are heading into a recession then Disney is going to want to make the most that can be made off of each and every person that comes to WDW.

 

[snowbunny]

This is probably why Disney is upset, the rooms are being given away.

There is no effect on Disney whether a member rents points for $10 or $20 or $5. The negative effect is that cash is being given to the member not CRO.

 

[JimMIA]

Anyone who wants to rent and has decided to reserve first, still has to call and reserve like anyone else. They have no advantage over anyone else in getting the first reservation for a given time frame and are at a disadvantage for each additional reservation due to the time it takes to complete the first. Anyone who wants one of these times or units types needs to call at exactly 11 months out when MS opens. It may be that some are better at planning and more conscientious on calling. They may also be better at using the rules in place such as the wait list. The idea that they have an unfair advantage in reserving is simply false.

I agree with every word of this. Anyone calling precisely at MS opening at exactly 11 months is doing nothing more than taking advantage of their home resort booking window. I have no problem with an owner calling at that time for a real rental reservation for a real customer.

But I'm still against the practice of speculative rental bookings. Speculative rental bookings are purely commercial, and they unfairly penalize legitimate DVC owners trying to book family vacations. Speculative rental bookings take availabilty away from DVC families and sell it to non-owners months later for profit. I don't agree with that practice.

 

[Deb & Bill]

There is no effect on Disney whether a member rents points for $10 or $20 or $5. The negative effect is that cash is being given to the member not CRO.

Other than, a non-member can get an BCV studio for the same that they pay for a value resort. Why pay Disney for the value resort when they can stay at the BCV and swim at SAB or walk to two themeparks? If it cost the same or slightly less for a rented BCV studio from a member as it cost renting directly from Disney, lots more people would rent directly from Disney because the small savings in renting from a member could be easily offset by the ability to cancel or change the reservation at the last minute or get daily housekeeping. But as long as it costs half or less than half what Disney charges, there will be non-members seeking a DVC reservation from a member.

 

[tomandrobin]

I agree with you, if renting is being restricted, and Disney is raising prices every year, then why are point reservations still so cheap??? This is probably why Disney is upset, the rooms are being given away. JMHO of course.

The other funny thing that I see all the time, that really kills me, is when a seller is listing their points for $12/pp and the renter is like "I want your points, but only want to pay $10/pp". If I have what you want, I have the bargining chip, not you.

 

[JimMIA]

I want to elaborate on the first part of this quote. Part of the reason that you may only see 18 reservations for rent on the front page of the Rent/Trade board is that a few months ago (August or September, I believe) the Disboards decided that owners could only offer existing reservations at the 30 day mark.

I may not have been very clear in my earlier post. The Redweek listings were DVC owners offering rentals.

The 18 DIS R/T Board listings I counted were non-owners seeking to rent -- not owners. I counted the non-owners specifically because I was aware of the 31 day rule for listing existing ressies.