The Running Thread - 2016

QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?
I only fuel for races longer than a half marathon (as well as triathlons)...otherwise I'm not out there long enough to need to replenish.

If it is just a running race I will use Honey Stinger chews...I used to use gels but find my stomach doesn't handle them well on the run. I'll also take water and sport drink at the aid stations.

For triathlon I get most of my fueling in on the bike...water and Gatorade, a Clif Bar broken into bite-sized pieces, and salty potatoes. Salt tab every hour or so (I'm a sweater). I'll also try and get a Gu gel in when I am about 20 minutes from the bike finish to give it a chance to absorb before running. Then on the run course I'll take water and sport drink EVERY aid station and add in flat Coke as well. I'll also gladly take a banana if someone offers me one :banana:
 
I recommend that everyone try a long run without fueling once or twice during a training season. It's a very good way to learn how your body reacts to being low on energy and then running out. By understanding the feelings and physical reaction in training, you'll be better able to recognize them during a race and have time to compensate before it's too late.
I agree with this 100%. It really helps with mental conditioning. Though there are real limits to how far and fast you can run without fluids or fuel, it really helps to know where your limits are.

I also believe that new runners should avoid eating or drinking during runs of 90 minutes or less. It is hard in the beginning, but it results in physiological changes that help you, like increased blood plasma and increased fat burning efficiency.
 
There's a really nice house along one of my routes that actually has a water fountain along the street for runners/walkers/cyclist. Very cool of them.

Amazing. That is such a cool idea!

I also forgot that another great fueling option during the Disney Marathon is beer in Germany or a margarita in Mexico (salted rim for the finish line kick!) :drinking1
 
I can't seem to do the-get gel out of pocket- tear it open- eat and digest- drink water- dispose of gel- process without slowing down to a walk. Is this a coordination issue, might there be classes or seminars on how to run and fuel at the same time? Does anyone else have this issue?!!!

Its a art form. I have a fuel belt for most long runs and find that drinking out of the bottle instead of a cup handed out on course makes it much easier to drink. As far as opening the GU, eating, while running... It just takes a while to find out the best way to do it. Practice is all I can suggest on that one.
 

QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?
I don't really fuel during races. During my half I did try the Clif shot that they gave out (yes I know nothing new on race day). It was okay but other than that I've never really fueled during a race.
 
I use margarita clif shot bloks... I like the extra sodium in them. I generally only use fuel when I'm going to be running for more than 90 minutes. I use nuun in my water during long runs as well.
 
I read your post twice and I didn't see what your plan will be once you phase these out? I am interested to hear your ideas on this because I hate the gels.

Thank you for your usual thoughtful analysis and explanation. Just wondering ... phasing out gels for your races?!?! Aren't you doing marathons?! Or are you doing the water fuel like tailwind?

The need for carbs during running comes down to math to me :teacher: (Ignore this @Keels :D). Do I have enough carbs in storage in my muscles to run my pace for this distance?

Current body Weight (in kg) X Distance (in km) = Total kcals burned

In total, fat and carbs equal out the total kcals burned. The faster you run (relative to your fitness level) the more carbs you burn. I'll use my numbers as an example.

Weight = 72.7 kg
Distance = 42.195 km
kcals = 3068.7

Now my calculator makes two assumptions.

1. You have an average weight to leg muscle ratio. Outside of a leg muscle biopsy, it is near impossible to know where a person falls on the scale of leg muscle. The size of the leg muscle partially determines the capability of carb storage.
2. You have an average metabolic efficiency profile. Your use of carbs and fat the faster you run (relative to your fitness level) is average. Again, outside of a lab metabolic efficiency test, it is near impossible to tell whether someone is average or not. The faster you run the more carbs you use. Some people might be 60% carbs 40% fat at 65% VO2max and others at 80% VO2max (this is where the metabolic efficiency profile would be helpful).

If we assume (and it is a leap), that a person is average for both of these parameters then we can make some calculations based on needs.

Leg Muscle Mass = 15.3
Carb storage = 1221.8 kcals

Current VO2max = 64

My desired pace is 7:33 min/mile and based on some other calculations that makes it 67% of my VO2max. Based on an average metabolic efficiency ratio I would need 1902 kcals carbs to run 42.195 km, at my weight, at 67% VO2max. This gives me a deficit of 680 kcals carbs. I can pull some from the liver and thus my final deficit is 580 kcals carbs (which equals 175.7 kcals carbs per hour which equals 43.9 g carbs per hour). This is where a traditional gel strategy would kick in. Ok I need 43.9 g carbs per hour to run a marathon at my weight and current fitness level at my goal pace. Done!

BUT.... I want to get rid of using gels or carbs during racing. How can I do that?

It's a two-step process.

1. Teach the body to increase carb storage capacity.
2. Store more than 100% carb capacity immediately prior to race day.

Step 1 can be accomplished with something called Glycogen Depletion training. WARNING! THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED LIGHTLY! These glycogen depletion training runs occur at least 8-12 weeks prior to race day and can be no more than once every 3-4 weeks. You plan to do your normal long run in duration between 90-150 minutes. You eat no breakfast prior and you use no fuel during the run. Your body becomes starved for carbs during the run, but there is nothing available. You typically fade hard at the end of these runs and as others have described learn what it feels like to be at near 0. When you get home you consume a large load of carbs within 15 minutes of finishing. Preferably mostly in liquid form as it can digest more readily. Your body will quickly store as many carbs as it can. The body adapts to the training by saying to itself, hey this guy is crazy and needs more carbs. Let's store more carbs in his legs for the next time he tries to do this to us. Thus, this increases your ability to store above 100% of your physical carb storage capabilities based on the leg muscle mass calculations.

Step 2 is accomplished through a sophisticated pre-race day carb loading strategy. There are a few out there, but I prefer the Western Australian method. Over the past year, I have been training my body to be able to tolerate the carb loading procedure. According to research, it can allow you to maximally store as much as 190% carb capacity (although results varied in the study and I believe the variation in the results is due to Step 1). So if I could maximally train my body to store 190% carb capacity, then it means I could store 2321 kcals of carbs. Remember how much I needed to run my pace, my distance, my weight... 1902. So now I've created a surplus of carbs stored in the muscles in the day or days (research by others suggest that carb loading could be done as many as 5 days prior to the event) ahead and can run the distance without carbs being a limiting factor. In fact, if I were physically capable, then carb depletion wouldn't become an issue at my weight and VO2max until I tried to run a 2:44:49 (81% VO2max). Yea, there are plenty of other reasons why I can't currently run that pace and one of them is not carbs. Here's the Western Australia plan based on my weight (as you can see this is not your typical spaghetti dinner):

Screen Shot 2016-08-10 at 8.54.15 AM.png

What's the drawback to this plan? There is no feedback prior to race day on how many carbs you've stored. I could calculate to the cows come home that I'll store 190%, but there's not really any way to know outside of a muscle biopsy the day prior whether I've done it successfully. So the plan takes a bit of leap of faith, but I know based on the science it works. The gels are easier from a standpoint that I can pre-calculate to eat this many gels at a certain rate with a certain water intake to determine I'll have sufficient carbs to finish. This however doesn't eliminate the need for electrolyte replacement (but if you drink some gatorade or electrolyte tabs on course, then you'll be fine).
 
At a race, I saw someone do something with their key that I probably wouldn't have thought of. He went to some rocks near his car and put the key underneath one. :) I know they sell little boxes that you can attach to the underside of your car, too. Mine usually goes in my SparkleSkirt waistpouch, but I do have trouble sometimes because I also use magnetic Race Dots for my bib, and then sometimes my shirt gets stuck to my waistband because the magnets attach to my key.
I had a friend who used to stick it in the wheel of his car or the tailpipe. I have my car keys on a landyard so I usually take all other keys off the landyard and then wrap it around my wrist a few times until it's not going anywhere. I've also seen people use carabineers around their tank top or sports bra with the keys on them.

QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?

ATTQOTD: I use GU, preferred flavors are salty watermelon (has caffeine) and strawberry banana (no caffeine). For deciding on when to fuel, my normal rule is to take GU for runs that will lost more than two hours only. I make an exception during the summer for 1.5 hour runs. My race day strategy is one GU about 15 minutes before the start of the race and then another one every 5 - 6 miles. (Ideal would be 10k marks.) The reason for runs of two hours or more is I want to train my body to use its own fuel sources for the "shorter" runs. Since I use GU it is recommended I believe to hydrate with the GU. I also find that this helps wash it down making it a bit easier to get it all down. To hydrate I will alternate between water and sports drink during the run. I try not to take to much in the way of sports drink because it ends up being a lot of sugar that my stomach sometimes does not agree with.
I do the sports bean variety pack normally. I find they're the best for me. Usually I won't use a gel to fuel during a race because it takes me forever to get one down because I don't like too much of it in my mouth at once. I also carry water in training if I'm running more than 5-7 miles (this is partially dependent on humidity).

That being said, I've tried a bunch of different things in my StrideBox. So far I've found that I like the carb boom gel, the powerbar performance energy blasts, and vitalyte drink supplement. From Disney I know that I also like the Clif Vanilla gel. I've also gotten some samples I was less impressed with though. The Orange/Mango Honey Stinger Gel (it tasted like more honey than fruit), Voke tab (it starts out tasting like a sour cherry vitamin but leaves a green tea taste in your mouth), and various powders for water all come to mind.
 
ATTQOTD: I've not trained with fuel or water. But haven't done anything more than 90 min either. Well, actually once I accidentally ran for 14.7 miles over 2.5 hours in Hawaii and was definitely seeing stars when I finished. I only tried the Honey Stingers once for Tink and again at Tink and it worked out well.

All the salt tabs and BASE salt sound promising. I have nuun tablets for post race recovery, but maybe I should be taking them during a run. Recently noticed my face is caked in salt after a run. To the local running store I go ....

Edited to add: I eat lots of bananas right before a race - as in walking to the race and waiting in line for the porta-potties.
 
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I'm behind on this thread!

ATTQOTD about shorts: I prefer it to be weather where you don't have to wear shorts...because love me some capris! But when I do have to wear shorts I prefer the compression or "bike short" style over the loose and flappy style. I have long legs for a woman so I have to try on anything before I buy it to make sure I'm not getting anything "immodest" in length.
I do sometimes wear the sparkle athletic skirts that are just fashionable shells (no shorts included) just for themes and fun...not function. I'm not a fan of anything in pockets...big nope.

ATTQOTD about fuel: Since I've never ran a half or longer I don't fuel during my runs. I am smart about eating and hydrating properly leading up to runs but I don't carry anything. I've found I like the jelly belly sports beans when I test-ran them for my 10k but I didn't really need them. But I will use them once I dive into the longer mileages coming up this fall and next spring :)
 
QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?

ATTQOTD: I live by "Fuel early and fuel often!" I'm chronically hypoglycemic, so it takes effort and planning to keep my blood glucose up to acceptable levels in every day life: add exercise and it's extra challenging - I need a TON of fuel for long runs. Luckily I have a cast-iron stomach, so my primary concern with carrying fuel is package size and weight: since I need to carry so much, I want it to be as light and small as possible.

Runs 1 hour or less I do without fuel, but I need to get glucose in me immediately after - I keep glucose tabs on hand, just in case, and will usually go for a glass of Gatorade to get my blood sugar back up after my short evening runs, then eat dinner. Runs longer than 1 hour I take a gel every 45 minutes, without fail. GU wins the prize for most calories in the smallest package. I really like Clif Shots, but they take up more space, so I may carry a mix of 75% GUs, 25% Clif. I may or may not save the chocolate flavored Clif for my final fuel and consider it a "treat." ;) In cool weather, plain water is fine. In our Florida summer heat, it's all Nuun all the time.
 
ATTQOTD: I usually only fuel if I'm running 8 miles or more although in the heat and humidity I do drink water/electrolytes on some shorter distances. I've tried lots of stuff for fuel. The good news is that I can tolerate just about anything. I'm not a fan of gels/gu - it's a texture thing mostly. I use sports beans and honey stingers some. I've done the honey waffles as well. Mostly I like these peanut/cranberry/honey bars I found at Walmart though. I had been trying to extend my running mileage/time without fuel this year due to some diet changes but it's been a tough training season for me. Not sure if less fuel is playing a role in that or not.
 
Yesterday a question was asked about fueling for running. I figured with everyone either already starting or will soon be starter a training program it would be appropriate to make it a official QOTD.

QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?
ATTQOTD: Sport beans. I'm training on a 5/1 run/walk cycle (covering a little more than a half mile), where every other walk cycle includes a bean and water, so I don't have to chew/slosh water during the running portion. I aim to tweak this at the marathon to match the alternating (or every 3rd) walk portions with the water stations.
 
ATTQOTD about shorts: I use shorts with elastic pockets in the back for gu/bean storage. Easier to get out of then zipper pockets. My favorite has been the Brooks Sherpa 3 inch seams, and it looks like they don't make them that short anymore. I got some Nike and Pantagonia recently, and the Pantagonia has about 4 elastic pockets, which is wonderful. Don't have any care about color. I can't stand front pockets on running shorts. For long runs, I wear a fuel belt for drinks, and that is where I keep the keys (usually in a zip lock bag). I

ATTQOTD about fuel: In the past, for runs longer then 10 miles, I would take a couple sport beans every 20 minutes, or a gu every hour. I am going to work on taking less fueling this year. For my fuel belt, I usually just carry water. I took salt tabs for the first time during Disney Marathon, and will be working on using them for long run fueling as well. I tried NUUN for the first time during a trail relay last fall, and really did not like it.
 
AQOTD: I find its more important to eat and drink enough the day before a long run than trying to fuel during a run. However, I take sports beans along on runs over 10 mi just in case. The tartness wakes me up a little and the caffeine makes everything seem good again. I usually just eat one or two at a time every few miles. Small pretzels work well, too. A little salt, a little carbs.
 
ATTQOTD: I will use fuel on any run over 90 minutes and I fuel early and often as well. I like Clif Bloks the best and only drink water during the race. I have never tried salt tabs, but I don't sweat profusely either, unless its really hot & humid, like this summer has been, in which I've been using the Clif Bloks with extra sodium.

In the next few weeks I will be trying to work through a problem I've been having: I seem to bonk somewhere between miles 15 & 17. I need to get this figured out before my October marathon. Maybe I need to eat a banana or something at mile 14? Any ideas?
 
Haha! The Race Dot struggle is real. I still can't find anything I like better though.

I saw something in a FB group that I liked and tried it during my last Half. I took a Lock Lace and put it thru the top holes in the bib, using the lock tabs to hold it on. Adjusted to my waist size and it was perfect! I just pulled it up when using the restroom. :)
 
ATTQOTD: I don't fuel for training runs less than 13 miles. During races I will take a gel prior then one every 45 - 60 minutes. My preference for gel is Pacific Healthlabs Accel Gel (chocolate and vanilla are so yummy). Unlike most gels, they are a thinner consistency. Even in the coldest weather they remain fluid, so they are much easier to swallow. I also use their recovery drink - Endurox R4 (vanilla, chocolate and banana cream are delicious). I am a huge advocate for salt replinishment. I use Salt Stick capsules, because I can't handle tasting salt. The difference for me comes after I run. I no longer suffer from lethargy and headaches I was getting after 13+ mile runs thanks to Salt Stick. I tried Nuun once, but I hate the effervescence. My sport drink shouldn't be bubbly. I can only drink G2.

The local marathon has great junk food stops and spectators that provide food. I wound up grabbing a handful of jelly beans at mile 15 and a banana from some lady's plate around mile 22 to supplement my gels.
 
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ATTQOTD: For longer runs (like 6+ is longer for me), I use Nuun in my water bottle. I like the Cherry Limeade flavor. It has some caffeine. It does go flat after a little bit. I don't care too much for the bubbles either, but I deal with them until they debubblize. :) In a race, I will also take 2 cups at every water stop, either 2 waters or 1 water/1 sport drink if it's available.

For gels, as mentioned in a previous post, I mainly use Huma gels. They are fruit puree and chia seeds (well except the chocolate and mocha flavors, those aren't fruit puree :)). Sometimes I use Honey Stingers (plain honey flavor) or Untapped (maple syrup). Deciding when to use them is a tricky business for me. :) In training I do not fuel until probably about 7-8 mile runs. That's about when I'm hitting the 1:30 mark if I'm doing an easy run. If I am fueling, then I take them every 45 minutes. I learned the hard way at my HM in May that I should still bring 4 gels with me even if I'm only planning to use 3 (that should get me to about 2:15, and my current PR/time I'm shooting to lower is 2:45). I had some rough times in that HM though, fueled a little too early each time, and was severely hitting the wall the last few miles. I ended up finishing 3:05 and had taken my last gel sometime before 2 hours. Some kind ladies gave me some shot blocks because I looked like I was dying I guess.

So, yeah, that is how I fuel for 10 miler or HM distance races and training runs longer than ~7-8 miles. I do bring one gel to 10K races and will take that at the 45 min mark, even though the PR/time I'm shooting to lower in that distance is 1:13. Gel during a 10K race for me is not so much about needing the fuel, just wanting it. :)

Much like the portapotty/sweaty spandex/magnetic race dots struggle is real, so is the opening of the gels. I have a very hard time opening them usually. Sweaty fingers slip and even though the packet is notched, I have a hard time ripping it. Since I run/walk, at least I can take care of it on a walk interval. A lot of times I end up ripping it with my molars because I just can't get it open with my fingers.
 
In the next few weeks I will be trying to work through a problem I've been having: I seem to bonk somewhere between miles 15 & 17. I need to get this figured out before my October marathon. Maybe I need to eat a banana or something at mile 14? Any ideas?
I used to bonk in marathons at mile 21. For me, I simply wasn't fueling enough throughout the race. I have read that if you do not start fueling early, and if you do not drink enough water when you fuel, that your digestive system will essentially shut down. So, you have to start fueling within the first 60 minutes of the run, and fuel every 30-45 minutes thereafter or the fuel will sit unused until you stop running for a while. Has to do with blood flow to the digestive system or something.

But my point is that the problem is not something that you are doing at mile 14 - it is something that you are doing (or not doing) throughout the race before the point of failure.
 












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