The Running Thread - 2016

But in all seriousness I've only ever been successful with the fast walk. I like to grab a cup at the first table with a fast walk and chug it. Then I grab another cup at the last-ish table and start running while pouring that cup over my head. On cool days I skip the second "dunk" cup.

Many 5k's I don't grab any water unless it's a hot day.

I've choked on water everytime I've tried to drink and run.
 
Another run/walker here who walks while drinking. I do try to move past the water stations as quickly as possible and then get out of the way to slow down and drink. I've also been known to stand near the trash cans to drink as well. I know people sweep up the trash, but I really hate to just toss the cup on the ground.
 
Today I did my first attempt at a tempo run. I don't know if I was very successful at it. I was supposed to do 30 min tempo of gradually building to 10K pace by the middle, run at 10K pace a few minutes, then gradually slow back down. It's really hard though to judge that with run/walk? I ended up running at what felt easy-ish during my run intervals for 0.8, then I ran hard during the runs for 1.3, then I ran easier the rest of the way back 0.4 (total 2.5 miles).

I was certainly working hard during that 1.3 miles of running harder, although you wouldn't know it by my pace (although the second mile of that route always is slower than the first, it's downhill on the way out so I'm always coming back uphill on the way back). I did have to stop for a few breathers to let my heart rate come down. It was 75 degrees and 98% humidity and it was like 7:30am. :crazy2:

I'm still trying to figure out this easy pace thing. I liked running the hard intervals in the middle because I basically ended up running at what feels like a natural stride for me. I am 6'0" with long legs, and when I try and slow down and run easy, I end up running very short shuffling strides. It feels very unnatural but I don't know how to slow down another way. I also am not doing as good a job at slowing down in general as I thought. I had been running 60/30 intervals for a few weeks so I was patting myself on the back... my goal HM pace is 12 minutes and I've been managing to do my easy runs between 12:45-13:15, which is maybe still too fast but really... I can't figure out how to slow down more! Well... it turns out that's just because I was walking more often. :( I put my intervals back to 90/30 the other day and... wooops. Now I'm back around 12:30.


I'm wondering what I should do about my training next week with my mid-week 10K race, does anyone have any suggestions? My plan calls for 5 miles easy on Tuesday, 3 miles HM pace on Thursday, and 7 mile long run on Saturday. My 10K race is on Thursday evening, though. I usually cross train with a spin class on Monday and Wednesday, too. I am thinking maybe I skip cross training entirely, run the 3 mile pace run on Monday, rest Tue/Wed, race Thurs, and then maybe do like 5-6 easy on Saturday?
 
QOTD: Building off of yesterdays QOTD, if you don't carry your own hydration during a race, what have you found is the best approach to the grab and go drinking method from hydration stations along the course?
When approaching an aid station I make my way over to that side of the course. It's nice in a race when they are always on the same side or even better both sides (like Disney). I prefer to grab with my right hand so I'll take the station on the right if possible. I don't slow down at all, but I will make eye contact and point to a specific volunteer and call out "water" or "Gatorade" depending on what I am after. I will then grab the cup, pinch the top, get a quick sip and dump the rest (if it is water) over my head. I try to get a second cup if the table is long enough too, repeating the process. I also try to make a game of hitting the garbage can with my cup, always a challenge at speed. I NEVER dump my cup in the middle of the road and when I ran BOP with my wife at the Disney Marathon this year I couldn't believe how littered the aid stations became with everyone throwing their cups on the ground. Even if you can't hit the garbage cans there is no excuse to not at least throw your cup off to the side of the course. Running BOP was a real eye-opener on so many levels, such a different experience and much respect earned for everyone there.
 

QOTD: Building off of yesterdays QOTD, if you don't carry your own hydration during a race, what have you found is the best approach to the grab and go drinking method from hydration stations along the course?

I don't carry my own hydration. All of the races I've run have provided ample hydration along the course and I'm not picky about sports drinks. Depending on the length of the race and conditions I vary how much I get at each station. For Marathon 2016 I was taking one water and one Powerade per station, but I've had races where I've skipped hydration stations and I rarely grab anything during a 5K or 10K. Unfortunately, I'm a hydration stop walker; I make sure not to stop in front of others or cut anyone off and usually try to wait for the back end of hydration stops to grab cups, but the stations are pretty much chaos at bigger races and I'm sure I've angered someone along the way. At this point I'm not fast enough to really care about saving a few extra seconds by slopping water and (much worse) sticky, sugary sports drinks on myself.

I hate yellow colored sports drinks

Yellow is my favorite, don't particularly like blue...or red...or really anything other than yellow, but I'll drink any of them on race day.
 
:sad::rolleyes1
This will be a slow, plodding race for me because of the climbing part. I'm not fast, and slower on mountain trails, but won my age group last year because I was the only female 60-65 to run the 5k! Ladies, keep running, and you win age group more and more often! DH is running the 15k and I have to have something to do to pass the time!

Wow, a mountain race?! You're braver than me! Good luck this weekend!

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Oh geez, this is totally me. So combined with ATTQOTD I tried the water stops for the first time at Tink and did the whole point at the person I was grabbing the cup from and then sort of tried to pinch it, but I've never done it before. I think I did 2-3 water stops and 90% got over my top and the rest I was choking on. I was actually worried about frying the iphone in my belt! Everyone else seemed to politely stop and drink (maybe even have a tiny conversation), toss the cup into a trashcan, and then proceed to pass me. I probably looked like a real dork! :sad: I wonder if there's a youtube video of appropriate cup pinching methods ....

@Miranda I wish I knew more about training to help you, but I'm sure others will chime in. Yay for doing a tempo run, they're tough!
 
ATTQOTD:

Great question as this is something I struggle with. I definitely think those who participate in lots of runs have an advantage because they can practice taking water at the water stations and figure out what works best. I think the best method is simply to slow down/walk to make sure you are comfortably getting fluids. I’m too stubborn to do that though.

I too use the pinch method, due to an old baseball injury I have a deviated septum which makes it difficult to breath out of my nose while drinking. This means my breathing and heartrate get out of whack so I really have to concentrate and take my time taking in fluids.

Other things that help me is I generally when I approach a water station I will pass the first group of volunteers/runners as there is always plenty of fluids toward the end of the station and its always less crowded / congested. Like @CheapRunnerMike I will also try and make eye contact with the person who I’m taking the cup from so they know I’m going to grab there’s. I’ve had times where the volunteer might turn away right as I’m grabbing their cup and I’ll miss it.

If possible I avoid stations at the tops of hills. Generally climbing hills means elevated breathing and heartrate which makes it challenging to take in fluids while at the same time trying to recover from making the climb.

Finally, again like @CheapRunnerMike I like to make a game out of it and toss my cups kinda high in the air and get them to land in the trash receptacles. My guess is I’m shooting somewhere in the low 20% range…actually I’m probably in the teens (actually single digits).
 
Unfortunately, I'm a hydration stop walker; I make sure not to stop in front of others or cut anyone off and usually try to wait for the back end of hydration stops to grab cups, but the stations are pretty much chaos at bigger races and I'm sure I've angered someone along the way.

Not cutting anyone off or stopping in front is appreciated. You definitely have to be on high alert through aid stations for those that stop immediately, I try and leave some distance between myself and those in front in case of a sudden stop or make eye contact with someone to have them reach out so my path is not behind those in front.
 
My local running store didn't have the BASE salt lick, but just got in this:

Saltstick_FastChews_lemon_400_grande.jpg

They're super small, like chapstick size. All the reviews talk about how it helped during ironman and the salesperson said he was going to try it out for his next tri. So I wonder if this is more for triathletes? He said I should drink water with it. Hopefully I'll try it out this week!

They're for anyone who needs the salt! I like them.
 
Yellow is my favorite, don't particularly like blue...or red...or really anything other than yellow, but I'll drink any of them on race day.

Ugh. Yellow is the one I prefer the least. I used to love Powerade blue until they tinkered with the flavor last year. Now I use Powerade Zero red or blue, and Gatorade red powder.
 
Do you like the Stridebox? I'm thinking about trying a running subscription box, but there are a few different ones.
So I will say Stridebox is the only one I tried. Runnerbox looks good too but I picked Stridebox because it's monthly and while I get a little bit less than I would in runner box, the fact that it's monthly means it evens out. I will say if you want to try new products or are searching for alternative sources of fuel it's a great tool. The box usually includes a certain subset of items including: food that can be used anytime (rice cakes, nutrition bars, etc) this month it was a chocolate sea-salt rxbar, some kind of drink powder to add to your drink (bonk breaker, vitalyte, nuun, etc) I can't remember this month's but I think it may have been two a cherry and beet one and a more generic berry or lemon flavored one, a few things to fuel you before or during your run (gummies, gels, etc) again I don't remember this month's but last month it was coffee flavored chews, something to help you on your run that is not edible (anti-chafe balm (amazing), kt tape, etc) this month it was a sunscreen I haven't tried so I'll see how I like it, and then one accessory for running (cooling towel, wristband for keys, phone holder, etc) again not sure I remember this month's but I know last month I got a water bottle that I not use for my drink powders post run. Beyond that there are a few things that you may get more or less of, like I also got a mini-packet of red velvet peanut butter this month, and one month I got mint tabs, cherry tabs, and gel for fuel, and another month I got anti-chafe balm for my feet, a tape patch (spider tech) for my back, and shoe deodorizers. I also like that they tell you what is a new product (like the month I got clif's oatmeal in a pouch) and what you can use it for. They also are very personable. They have a monthly contest where you submit pictures based on a certain theme and they pick some for the little guide page for the next month. I got on this month's which was fun. Now that I've rambled off you could probably just read a review of what was in the past few months and get a better idea.

QOTD: Building off of yesterdays QOTD, if you don't carry your own hydration during a race, what have you found is the best approach to the grab and go drinking method from hydration stations along the course?
I usually go one of two ways depending on the race and my goals for it. The first way is the one I learned from the rest of you cup pinchers way back in the thread that it's one of the best ways to maintain speed. I use that if I plan to keep running. I head towards the end of the volunteer line, make eye contact with a volunteer (as many of you do), grab, and go. If it's cool out I drink it all because I am a pro at drinking down water while running. If it's hot I take a sip and dump the rest on my head. Then I toss it in the trash can OR on rare courses where there's not a trash can I aim for the bushes so no one has to run through a field of cups. Sometimes, especially on 5ks I like to stop and drink and speed walk so I make sure to signal and get out of the way of other runners as I approach the water station. This is usually because I'm not at that point where if I stop I know I'll struggle to start running again. Once I grab the water I don't bother to pinch and instead finish it aim for the trash and get on my way.

It should be noted I am almost always a water grabber. The only time I will grab an energy drink (blue preferably but yellow will work) is when I'm on a tough run with a while to go. I don't really like the taste of energy drinks overall so for me it's more of a pick me up.
 
Yesterday a question was asked about fueling for running. I figured with everyone either already starting or will soon be starter a training program it would be appropriate to make it a official QOTD.

QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?

ATTQOTD: I use GU, preferred flavors are salty watermelon (has caffeine) and strawberry banana (no caffeine). For deciding on when to fuel, my normal rule is to take GU for runs that will lost more than two hours only. I make an exception during the summer for 1.5 hour runs. My race day strategy is one GU about 15 minutes before the start of the race and then another one every 5 - 6 miles. (Ideal would be 10k marks.) The reason for runs of two hours or more is I want to train my body to use its own fuel sources for the "shorter" runs. Since I use GU it is recommended I believe to hydrate with the GU. I also find that this helps wash it down making it a bit easier to get it all down. To hydrate I will alternate between water and sports drink during the run. I try not to take to much in the way of sports drink because it ends up being a lot of sugar that my stomach sometimes does not agree with.

Fueling for me is an area I need a lot of work. I didn't mentioned the other day that I do use Clif Shot Blocks. Those are OK, they don't bother my stomach. But I don't use a lot of fuel on training runs. A lot of the reading I have done on nutrition since I began running and it all indicates the most important thing you can do for your race fueling is a solid daily diet. I eat a lot of whole foods, salads, chicken, etc...

I personally don't notice a difference when I use the gels and clif blocks. When I have a race in the morning I will get up early and have a HUGE breakfast. Something like a 6 egg omlet and a bagel. This usually gives me all the fuel I need for any race up to a 1/2 marathon. For the WDW marathon I didn't get to have my normal breakfast because I was in a hotel room (I really want a full kitchen for 2018) and I was hungry by MK. That was a tough race because I was hungry most of the race. I ate 2 bananas at each banana stop.

As for hydration, unless it is really hot and humid I follow a similar philosophy. I try to stay hydrated properly all day long. During the summer I was eat more salt to retain the fluid. But, I will drink water constantly so when I do run I don't really need to carry water. I drink some before I go out on my run of course but this seems to work well for me.

During races I will hit the water stations. I only do water. Sports drink usually bothers my stomach. And I took some during the marathon because I was struggling. It did not taste good. Obviously it wasn't cold. I just found it nasty.

I do think I will need some fuel for future marathons though and I have to find something that works.

The need for carbs during running comes down to math to me :teacher: (Ignore this @Keels :D). Do I have enough carbs in storage in my muscles to run my pace for this distance?

Current body Weight (in kg) X Distance (in km) = Total kcals burned

In total, fat and carbs equal out the total kcals burned. The faster you run (relative to your fitness level) the more carbs you burn. I'll use my numbers as an example.

Weight = 72.7 kg
Distance = 42.195 km
kcals = 3068.7

Now my calculator makes two assumptions.

1. You have an average weight to leg muscle ratio. Outside of a leg muscle biopsy, it is near impossible to know where a person falls on the scale of leg muscle. The size of the leg muscle partially determines the capability of carb storage.
2. You have an average metabolic efficiency profile. Your use of carbs and fat the faster you run (relative to your fitness level) is average. Again, outside of a lab metabolic efficiency test, it is near impossible to tell whether someone is average or not. The faster you run the more carbs you use. Some people might be 60% carbs 40% fat at 65% VO2max and others at 80% VO2max (this is where the metabolic efficiency profile would be helpful).

If we assume (and it is a leap), that a person is average for both of these parameters then we can make some calculations based on needs.

Leg Muscle Mass = 15.3
Carb storage = 1221.8 kcals

Current VO2max = 64

My desired pace is 7:33 min/mile and based on some other calculations that makes it 67% of my VO2max. Based on an average metabolic efficiency ratio I would need 1902 kcals carbs to run 42.195 km, at my weight, at 67% VO2max. This gives me a deficit of 680 kcals carbs. I can pull some from the liver and thus my final deficit is 580 kcals carbs (which equals 175.7 kcals carbs per hour which equals 43.9 g carbs per hour). This is where a traditional gel strategy would kick in. Ok I need 43.9 g carbs per hour to run a marathon at my weight and current fitness level at my goal pace. Done!

BUT.... I want to get rid of using gels or carbs during racing. How can I do that?

It's a two-step process.

1. Teach the body to increase carb storage capacity.
2. Store more than 100% carb capacity immediately prior to race day.

Step 1 can be accomplished with something called Glycogen Depletion training. WARNING! THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED LIGHTLY! These glycogen depletion training runs occur at least 8-12 weeks prior to race day and can be no more than once every 3-4 weeks. You plan to do your normal long run in duration between 90-150 minutes. You eat no breakfast prior and you use no fuel during the run. Your body becomes starved for carbs during the run, but there is nothing available. You typically fade hard at the end of these runs and as others have described learn what it feels like to be at near 0. When you get home you consume a large load of carbs within 15 minutes of finishing. Preferably mostly in liquid form as it can digest more readily. Your body will quickly store as many carbs as it can. The body adapts to the training by saying to itself, hey this guy is crazy and needs more carbs. Let's store more carbs in his legs for the next time he tries to do this to us. Thus, this increases your ability to store above 100% of your physical carb storage capabilities based on the leg muscle mass calculations.

Step 2 is accomplished through a sophisticated pre-race day carb loading strategy. There are a few out there, but I prefer the Western Australian method. Over the past year, I have been training my body to be able to tolerate the carb loading procedure. According to research, it can allow you to maximally store as much as 190% carb capacity (although results varied in the study and I believe the variation in the results is due to Step 1). So if I could maximally train my body to store 190% carb capacity, then it means I could store 2321 kcals of carbs. Remember how much I needed to run my pace, my distance, my weight... 1902. So now I've created a surplus of carbs stored in the muscles in the day or days (research by others suggest that carb loading could be done as many as 5 days prior to the event) ahead and can run the distance without carbs being a limiting factor. In fact, if I were physically capable, then carb depletion wouldn't become an issue at my weight and VO2max until I tried to run a 2:44:49 (81% VO2max). Yea, there are plenty of other reasons why I can't currently run that pace and one of them is not carbs. Here's the Western Australia plan based on my weight (as you can see this is not your typical spaghetti dinner):

View attachment 187154

What's the drawback to this plan? There is no feedback prior to race day on how many carbs you've stored. I could calculate to the cows come home that I'll store 190%, but there's not really any way to know outside of a muscle biopsy the day prior whether I've done it successfully. So the plan takes a bit of leap of faith, but I know based on the science it works. The gels are easier from a standpoint that I can pre-calculate to eat this many gels at a certain rate with a certain water intake to determine I'll have sufficient carbs to finish. This however doesn't eliminate the need for electrolyte replacement (but if you drink some gatorade or electrolyte tabs on course, then you'll be fine).

When I finally get healthy and I can start really pushing myself again I need to figure out a training plan and my nutrition. I wish I had your dedication to getting into things with this much detail. I do my share of reading but I never get into this much detail.


ATTQOTD: I don't fuel for training runs less than 13 miles. During races I will take a gel prior then one every 45 - 60 minutes. My preference for gel is Pacific Healthlabs Accel Gel (chocolate and vanilla are so yummy). Unlike most gels, they are a thinner consistency. Even in the coldest weather they remain fluid, so they are much easier to swallow. I also use their recovery drink - Endurox R4 (vanilla, chocolate and banana cream are delicious). I am a huge advocate for salt replinishment. I use Salt Stick capsules, because I can't handle tasting salt. The difference for me comes after I run. I no longer suffer from lethargy and headaches I was getting after 13+ mile runs thanks to Salt Stick. I tried Nuun once, but I hate the effervescence. My sport drink shouldn't be bubbly. I can only drink G2.

The local marathon has great junk food stops and spectators that provide food. I wound up grabbing a handful of jelly beans at mile 15 and a banana from some lady's plate around mile 22 to supplement my gels.

I love Endurox R4, I do fruit punch. It is YUMMY! I had no idea they had gels I might have to give those a try.


This week we have the following poster with a race:

13 - @Disney at Heart - XTERRA Table Rock 5k Trail Race (50:00 / N/A)

Looks like you are the solo racer of the weekend. I think this may be the first time this has happened. So, lets her about your race and goals for the weekend. If you would like to revise you goal, just let me know. Good luck this weekend and hope you have a great race!

Good luck this weekend!


When approaching an aid station I make my way over to that side of the course. It's nice in a race when they are always on the same side or even better both sides (like Disney). I prefer to grab with my right hand so I'll take the station on the right if possible. I don't slow down at all, but I will make eye contact and point to a specific volunteer and call out "water" or "Gatorade" depending on what I am after. I will then grab the cup, pinch the top, get a quick sip and dump the rest (if it is water) over my head. I try to get a second cup if the table is long enough too, repeating the process. I also try to make a game of hitting the garbage can with my cup, always a challenge at speed. I NEVER dump my cup in the middle of the road and when I ran BOP with my wife at the Disney Marathon this year I couldn't believe how littered the aid stations became with everyone throwing their cups on the ground. Even if you can't hit the garbage cans there is no excuse to not at least throw your cup off to the side of the course. Running BOP was a real eye-opener on so many levels, such a different experience and much respect earned for everyone there.

Mike, I am with you. I don't get why people can't try and get their cup in the trash can, or at least close to it.

QOTD:
As for strategy, I do run/walk. I don't do a set interval. So I basically run water stop to water stop and I will just walk through a water stop. I have tried drinking while running and I end up choking every time. When the time comes where I am getting closer to possibly BQ-ing I will need to figure out how to get through the water stops faster.
 
QOTD: Question for those who fuel during runs, what do you use? What rules govern your decision for fueling? Do you also include water and/or sport drinks?

For most races caffinated gu before the race then 1 gu per hour with water. I alternate water and gatorade at water stops if the have both.

For training runs taking a gu before my runs had been my security blanket but as I've ramped up milage in the last 2 months I've cut way back on the amount of gu I take. For midweek runs, I carry water only.. For 10 milers water with 1 gu either before or during the run. For 15+ Gatorade, water and 1 gu.

For Races with a long time before wake up and running I drink a starbucks doubleshot right when I wake up and then eat a small clif bar.

QOTD: Building off of yesterdays QOTD, if you don't carry your own hydration during a race, what have you found is the best approach to the grab and go drinking method from hydration stations along the course?

ATTQOTD: I found that the best method is to pinch the top of the cup making a spout (SP?) and then drink. I am not saying this method is spill proof, but it is much easier to get more drink down then on my shirt. If the cups are made out of something other than paper, then all bets are off.
Side note, I hate yellow colored sports drinks, but after 16 miles of running, I no longer mind the taste.

I usually try and hit the last 3rd of the tables I'm going for and run in the center before that. I usually will alternate water and gatorade for drinking, but I'll usually dump a cup of water on my head at most fuel stops. I try and time the alternating so that if I am going to take a gu I do it with water not gatorade. I try and get to the right when I dump so I don't splash other people. The pinch and drink method works for me, particularly if the cup is 1/2 full or less.
 
ATTQOTD: I carry my own bottle, but need to refill it from water tables. My approach is: upon sight of water tables; twist off bottle cap and hold cap in teeth, retrieve Nuun tab and drop into bottle; pass all Powerade tables by continuing through center of course, walking or running depending on what the crowd's doing; pass most water tables while beginning to work my way left or right, walking; grab one cup from 2nd to last table, pinch and pour into bottle while walking; grab second cup, pinch and pour into bottle; if hot, grab third cup from end of last table and hang onto it until past tables, then carefully, so as not to splash anyone else, pour over head and back of neck; twist bottle cap back on and resume race, thanking volunteers loudly. All cups get tossed into garbage cans or off to side of course, depending on situation (cans are often overflowing by the time I get to them). It sounds like a lot, but I've got it down to a science at this point, lol!

As an aside, very few things make me ragey in races. I don't get bothered by walkers, weavers, loud breathers, non-signalers, etc. But people coming to a dead halt in the center of water stops, and tossing cups onto the course? Makes. me. CRAZY. :headache:
 
ATTQOTD - I don't drink at all in races shorter than 10 miles. In longer races I alternate, first stop I just grab the gatorade/powerade being offered, second stop I grab a cup of water and a cup of gatorade/powerade. Rinse/Repeat.

I used to be a "serious runner", which translated into a "requirement" that I never stop running in a race or on a training run. That meant that I used the pinch and choke method while continuing to run. You eventually get better at it and choke a little less, but there is always some air swallowing happening when you drink this way, and you always end up wearing some of the liquid.

I changed to my current method - run through the aide station and then slow to a walk and drink. I made that change after my coach discussed how much time I would lose in a marathon by walking for the 20-30 seconds every other mile. It amounted to less than 3 minutes. So I changed my approach.
 
ATTQOTD-water stop strategies. I try to hit each aid station and depending on weather conditions will take water at one and energy drink at the next or sometimes a little of both. Since I slow down to a walk it is easy to grab a cup and keep moving. Working on doing this at speed since I just lost 25 seconds on one of my Long Run miles opening a gel and drinking water. Wasted time really adds up.

If I am by myself I will run towards the end of the table before slowing down but when Mrs. Slogger is with me she will request that we stop at the very first table and won't resume running until we clear the entire aid station area.

Count me in as making a game of throwing my cups in the trash can but a friendly warning.....I once tossed a quarter full cup of PowerAde at a trashcan and just missed a runner that was in my blind spot and moving faster than me. Not sure "oops" would suffice. I've also been on the other side of that exchange, LOL.

I rarely miss, but if I do, I always turn around and pick up my trash. Good thing I have good aim.
 












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