The Running Thread - 2016

[ZellyB]

@Keels - loved that post! And, back at you on the inspiration front. Not to mention your ninja internet skills in scoping out the backdoor into the runDisney registration links!!

 

[camaker]

Did you do anything in particular to cut out the intervals? I would love to cut out the intervals, but I'm not really sure how... just keep extending them maybe? My actual running paces seem to range between 9:30-10:30 on shorter runs/races, but of course I'm not running the whole time, so that drags down my overall pace.

I recently had to go through the run/walk to running transition, so I can share my methodology. As part of rehabbing a torn hamstring, my PT put me back out there doing a 0:30/2:00 run/walk interval. Every three weeks, if I was pain free and my legs felt good on the new interval, I would change things up. Here's the rough schedule I followed for the transition:

Wk 1-3 0:30/2:00
Wk 4-6 1:00/2:00
Wk 7-9 2:00/2:00
Wk 8-10 3:00/1:00 (This was a big transition point)
Wk 11-13 4:00/1:00
Wk 14-16 4:00/0:30 (Another big transition)
Wk 17-19 5:00/0:30
Wk 20 Start full running

A couple of things to keep in mind. First, I was going through a Higdon Half Marathon plan during this, so my mileage tended to increase during each week for the first 2/3 of the transition, as well, increasing the challenge. Second, depending on where you are in your fitness you may need more, or less, time at each interval step. Also, don't be afraid to reduce or increase the rate of change, if it feels right. The "pacing" of my changes was set up to allow me to rebuild strength in the hamstring while putting in the miles without reinjury. Hope this helps!

 

[Disneyland_emily]

Usually my goal is to be 'half ready' by first fall race then stay trained/work on speed for the rest of my race season with goals to PR end of season (since its far easier to push harder in jan then september esp when the milage is there..)

That said my time goals for race season this year are on hold, race season drastically shorter and new goal is to safely finish the 1 i wont miss unless dead race (Space Coast) and hopefully wine & dine challenge (debatable) but it should hopefully be worth it..

 

[camaker]

Looks like a lot of folks are using a training plan from @DopeyBadger , including myself for this summer. We keep this up we will need to start a gofundme page for the guy. Thanks for taking your valuable time for helping myself and others in this thread!

I say we just set up a GoBeerBadger schedule for Marathon Weekend. Each of us can take him to a different WDW bar. We can thank him and hydrate him for Dopey all at the same time!

 

[roxymama]

I say we just set up a GoBeerBadger schedule for Marathon Weekend. Each of us can take him to a different WDW bar. We can thank him and hydrate him for Dopey all at the same time!

He's gonna need a whole new set of spreadsheets for this beer hydration plan. Also I feel like I may need to just have Garden Grocer deliver a keg to his resort. That should be enough hydration for at least the 5k right?

 

[CheapRunnerMike]

QOTD: I am curious about how everyone plans their running schedule. How far into the future does your training plan go? How often do you find yourself revising pace/distance/ect once you originally planned them?

I have a coach and I just do what her training plan says. She usually plans out a month at a time so that we can make adjustments as required. I will add in the odd extra (easy) trail run when I think I need it...triathlon training really seems to be a tonne of swimming and biking and not enough running. I need to run to keep my sanity!

With everyone else seemingly on the @DopeyBadger Training Squad I'm feeling left out...might need to sign up when I start my next marathon cycle. Guess I'll be adding my name to the GoBeerBadger schedule

 

[DopeyBadger]

I say we just set up a GoBeerBadger schedule for Marathon Weekend. Each of us can take him to a different WDW bar. We can thank him and hydrate him for Dopey all at the same time!

LOL! As long as you're ordering me a water! Haven't had any alcohol in 5+ years.

 

[disneydaydreamer33]

QOTD: I am curious about how everyone plans their running schedule. How far into the future does your training plan go? How often do you find yourself revising pace/distance/ect once you originally planned them?

Since I am 15 weeks away from my fall HM, I decided to plan out my running schedule until then. I am going to increase my mileage by .5% -.75% every other week. Now, I just need to figure out how to slow run most of my training runs!

 

[LSUlakes]

I say we just set up a GoBeerBadger schedule for Marathon Weekend. Each of us can take him to a different WDW bar. We can thank him and hydrate him for Dopey all at the same time!

Last year a lot of restaurants had a beer we no longer get in Louisiana, Bear Republic - Racer 5 IPA. I only had one before the marathon, but many after. I no longer see it on the menu, but it seems this would be a fitting option post marathon. Sad to say, I wont be making the trip for this years marathon and running Houston's marathon in hopes of cooler weather and possible pacing friend. I will prepay for one of these beers for DopeyBadger for whoever buys him one!

On a side note, I went to Houston this weekend and they do have it. I bought the store out of their bombers of this beer.

EDIT**** I support the purchase of Disneys finest H2O for DopeyBadger.

 

[roxymama]

LOL! As long as you're ordering me a water! Haven't had any alcohol in 5+ years.

I think what we all meant to say was GoBearclawMe. Someone get the man some donuts stat! But maybe not until after the races

 

[opusone]

Slowing down seems so counter-intuitive! Like, logically I read training advice for other people and nod along when someone tells someone else to slow down, but now of course I am reading this and thinking, "14:32-15:31 is so slow, how will I ever get faster running that slow!" After a little over 1.5 years of being back to running, I still have that mentality of when I go out for a run, I try to beat my previous time for the route, so I guess that is how I ended up running my weekday shorter runs @ close to 5K pace all the time.

Trust me when I say I spent the first 3 years of my training (Summer 2012-Summer 2015) legitimately tracking every training run as if it were a PR. I did the same thing, trying to beat the previous run from the last time I did it. So, I totally get where you're coming from. In those 3 years I improved my HM time by 6% (7 min improvement) and my M time by 10% (30 min improvement). Since then I've adopted this "train slow, race fast" methodology and have dropped in about one year (so a third of the previous timeframe) my HM time by 9.2% (10 min PR improvement) and M time by 20% (52 min PR improvement). I agree though it seems very counter-intuitive on the surface.

I have to constantly remind them to slow down when their breathing gets labored. They just want to go as fast as they can, and I understand, but you see far less improvement running this way. They are finally beginning to trust me and my methods as their slow runs are producing faster paces without increased effort.

Learning the slower pace is something I find extremely difficult to do. Even more so during the warm up phase before speed work.

I'll de-lurk just to say, so counter-intuitive, but it works! When I started using Phil Maffetone's "180 formula" a few years ago, it was aggravating (to say the least) trying to keep my heart rate below 180-age (140 for me) for runs. It just felt so painfully slow. But over time, my pace picked up at that same heart rate and I was able to start more consistently setting PR's. There's a whole lot more that goes along with this beyond the 180 formula, but I stayed healthier and progressed further than my previous years of training.

With all this talk about slower, easy runs, and how mentally tough it is to believe in them enough to actually do them, I thought I would put in my two cents on how I think about it. This is greatly simplified, but knowing these basics really helps motivate me to try to complete all my training runs at the proper paces (whether slow or fast):

Running is not one bodily function that you are trying to improve, it is actually a bunch, and they all need to be improved for you to get better at running, so let's start by listing a few main functions involved in running physiology improvement:

1. Cardiovascular System - mainly building up the heart muscle - affects how much oxygen can be delivered from the heart into the bloodstream
2. Lactate Threshold - basically represents the fastest speed you can sustain aerobically - you want to minimize lactate acid build-up in the muscles at faster speeds - lactate acid accumulation in the muscles is what makes you slow down or stop running when you are running too fast
3. Oxygen Consumption/Usage Efficiency (I will call this VO2 Max for simplicity, but it is more than that) - how much oxygen your leg muscles can consume from the bloodstream as well as how much oxygen they use at a given speed (oxygen efficiency)

Now, here is the trick... improvements in all of the above are needed, but there is no one workout that will efficiently improve all three, so we need different workouts for each type of improvement.

1. Easy (Slow) Runs: very good at building up the heart muscle (your heart only needs to be at 60% of Max HR or greater for maximum benefit). The longer the heart is working at 60+%, the stronger the heart will get. And guess what, you can run at 60% of max heart rate a lot longer than at 70, 80 or 90% of max heart rate, so in the 60-70% (Zone 2) range is the sweet spot for these workouts. At these slower paces, you can workout your heart for hours without fatigue. Every run you do that is not working on some other specific improvement should be run at these speeds such that you maximize benefit and minimize potential injury.
2. Threshold Runs: running close to your threshold pace (basically the pace you could stay at for one hour with nothing left in the tank) is the best way to achieve a benefit here. These runs are oftentimes 15-20 minutes long (sometimes long intervals) at close to threshold pace.
3. VO2 Max Runs: running intervals at your VO2 Max pace (basically the pace you could stay at for 10 minutes with nothing left in the tank) for 3-5 minutes. It actually takes the first two minutes of the intervals for the body to gear up to VO2 Max, so you are actually getting 1-3 minutes at VO2 Max with each interval.

Bringing it all together:
- Your VO2 Max Runs will improve your oxygen efficiency in your muscles, but given the short intervals (due to the speed required to get to VO2 Max), they are not long enough in order to accumulate lactate acid, so they will not improve your lactate threshold. Also, they are not long enough workouts to significantly improve the cardiovascular system.
- Your Threshold Runs will not stress your VO2 Max/oxygen efficiency because you are not running fast enough, and the threshold workouts are too short to significantly improve your cardiovascular system.
- That leaves us with quite a few easy, slow runs that will benefit not just your heart muscle but your entire aerobic capacity. And since they feel easy, you can put in quite a few hours each week without too much effort which will get you much better cardiovascular improvement than putting in half that time at faster paces, and these unneeded faster runs might also make you feel tired, less motivated, or worst of all, leave you injured.

 

[DopeyBadger]

With all this talk about slower, easy runs, and how mentally tough it is to believe in them enough to actually do them, I thought I would put in my two cents on how I think about it. This is greatly simplified, but knowing these basics really helps motivate me to try to complete all my training runs at the proper paces (whether slow or fast):

Running is not one bodily function that you are trying to improve, it is actually a bunch, and they all need to be improved for you to get better at running, so let's start by listing a few main functions involved in running physiology improvement:

1. Cardiovascular System - mainly building up the heart muscle - affects how much oxygen can be delivered from the heart into the bloodstream
2. Lactate Threshold - basically represents the fastest speed you can sustain aerobically - you want to minimize lactate acid build-up in the muscles at faster speeds - lactate acid accumulation in the muscles is what makes you slow down or stop running when you are running too fast
3. Oxygen Consumption/Usage Efficiency (I will call this VO2 Max for simplicity, but it is more than that) - how much oxygen your leg muscles can consume from the bloodstream as well as how much oxygen they use at a given speed (oxygen efficiency)

Now, here is the trick... improvements in all of the above are needed, but there is no one workout that will efficiently improve all three, so we need different workouts for each type of improvement.

1. Easy (Slow) Runs: very good at building up the heart muscle (your heart only needs to be at 60% of Max HR or greater for maximum benefit). The longer the heart is working at 60+%, the stronger the heart will get. And guess what, you can run at 60% of max heart rate a lot longer than at 70, 80 or 90% of max heart rate, so in the 60-70% (Zone 2) range is the sweet spot for these workouts. At these slower paces, you can workout your heart for hours without fatigue. Every run you do that is not working on some other specific improvement should be run at these speeds such that you maximize benefit and minimize potential injury.
2. Threshold Runs: running close to your threshold pace (basically the pace you could stay at for one hour with nothing left in the tank) is the best way to achieve a benefit here. These runs are oftentimes 15-20 minutes long (sometimes long intervals) at close to threshold pace.
3. VO2 Max Runs: running intervals at your VO2 Max pace (basically the pace you could stay at for 10 minutes with nothing left in the tank) for 3-5 minutes. It actually takes the first two minutes of the intervals for the body to gear up to VO2 Max, so you are actually getting 1-3 minutes at VO2 Max with each interval.

Bringing it all together:
- Your VO2 Max Runs will improve your oxygen efficiency in your muscles, but given the short intervals (due to the speed required to get to VO2 Max), they are not long enough in order to accumulate lactate acid, so they will not improve your lactate threshold. Also, they are not long enough workouts to significantly improve the cardiovascular system.
- You Threshold Runs will not stress your VO2 Max/oxygen efficiency because you are not running fast enough, and the threshold workouts are too short to significantly improve your cardiovascular system.
- That leaves us with quite a few easy, slow runs that will benefit not just your heart muscle but your entire aerobic capacity. And since they feel easy, you can put in quite a few hours each week without too much effort which will get you much better cardiovascular improvement than putting in half that time at faster paces, and these unneeded faster runs might also make you feel tired, less motivated, or worst of all, leave you injured.

A very good and well written explanation.

 

[Keels]

Speaking of beer, who wants to join me in the Beer Ultra next year?

I feel confident at this point in saying that there is nobody that could possibly be more prepared for this challenge than me.

 

[Keels]

Last year a lot of restaurants had a beer we no longer get in Louisiana, Bear Republic - Racer 5 IPA. I only had one before the marathon, but many after. I no longer see it on the menu, but it seems this would be a fitting option post marathon. Sad to say, I wont be making the trip for this years marathon and running Houston's marathon in hopes of cooler weather and possible pacing friend. I will prepay for one of these beers for DopeyBadger for whoever buys him one!

On a side note, I went to Houston this weekend and they do have it. I bought the store out of their bombers of this beer.

EDIT**** I support the purchase of Disneys finest H2O for DopeyBadger.

Dang! Yeah, we don't get Bear Republic in North Texas ... I read somewhere that they were pulling out of the Texas market all together, which stinks because it's delicious.

Disneyland's IPA of choice is Sculpin from Ballast Point ... SOOOOOO GOOD.

 

[FFigawi]

Dang! Yeah, we don't get Bear Republic in North Texas ... I read somewhere that they were pulling out of the Texas market all together, which stinks because it's delicious.

It's still available in Houston. I had several last week in fact.

Disneyland's IPA of choice is Sculpin from Ballast Point ... SOOOOOO GOOD.

A good beer but one I no longer buy after they sold out. I try to avoid buying anything made by InBev, Miller, Constellation, etc. When in Florida, I tend to opt for anything from Cigar City or the local I-4 IPA.

 

[Kathymford]

So much to comment on today! Great discussions!!

When it is hot outside it takes more mental toughness to push through, but if you need more walk breaks (I mean really need them, not just want them) then you are probably not ready for that distance or pace yet and you need to back off.

I found this to be 100% true when I first extended my distances when training for my first half marathon. My first long run that was more than a 10k (the furthest I had ever gone), I thought my legs were going to fall off and I NEEDED the walk breaks.

I think I am also kind of mentally weak and take walk breaks a lot when I don't actually need them, I just want them.

As an interval runner myself, I absolutely agree with this.

QOTD: I am curious about how everyone plans their running schedule. How far into the future does your training plan go? How often do you find yourself revising pace/distance/ect once you originally planned them?

I base my training plans on my next race. So if it's RunDisney, I usually have more than 6 months between races (I mostly do Disney races).

I think in training I probably tend to mosey a bit on my walk segments, probably not with the same purpose as I would in a race. I should work on that.

THIS. It doesn't feel like I'm moseying, but the numbers don't lie! I try to watch my pace now while walking and keep it at least under my 16 min/mile (Disney cutoff pace lol)

Not directed at me but I thought I'd jump in. One of my goals for the year was to try to eliminate the walk intervals for shorter races. I've been doing 2:30 running and :30 walking. I just did this by gradually increasing the time period before I started my walk intervals. I got up to doing 5k races and not taking a walk break until mile 2 or so. But I noticed that it's actually made me slower In order to be able to maintain the running for longer periods without taking a walk break, my run pace had to go down. I'm currently trying to decide whether I want to keep going with this goal just to say I did it or amend it since it doesn't seem to be making me faster.

This is me too! I gut up to running intervals of .25 mile run/walk intervals, but for the most part it has made me slower. I honestly am having trouble deciding which is more important to me, pace or time spent actually running.

I've never done run/walk, so forgive my naivety on the subject, but what does it feel like to do run/walk? Could you describe what it feels like to run at 12:12 and then walk at 14:00? What is the feeling you have at the end of the running interval (tired legs, out of breath, etc.)? If you were to skip a walking interval, what does it feel like (tired legs, out of breath, etc.)? This will help me better relate and give advice.

I know this was not directed at me, but I can answer from my perspective. For me, for the most part, it's my legs. Tired legs, need to stop to give them a break. I thought after almost a full year of real training that they would have gotten stronger by now, but that doesn't seem to have happened for me. It could be all in my head. I also think the idea of them being mini goals helps too. I get to stop after x amount of time helps me push through that portion of the run. I have noticed that has made me sometimes push harder than I should though. I run a segment faster just to get to my .25 mile so I can stop running and have a walk break. Seems like maybe that's not great. lol

I recently had to go through the run/walk to running transition, so I can share my methodology. As part of rehabbing a torn hamstring, my PT put me back out there doing a 0:30/2:00 run/walk interval. Every three weeks, if I was pain free and my legs felt good on the new interval, I would change things up. Here's the rough schedule I followed for the transition:

Wk 1-3 0:30/2:00
Wk 4-6 1:00/2:00
Wk 7-9 2:00/2:00
Wk 8-10 3:00/1:00 (This was a big transition point)
Wk 11-13 4:00/1:00
Wk 14-16 4:00/0:30 (Another big transition)
Wk 17-19 5:00/0:30
Wk 20 Start full running

A couple of things to keep in mind. First, I was going through a Higdon Half Marathon plan during this, so my mileage tended to increase during each week for the first 2/3 of the transition, as well, increasing the challenge. Second, depending on where you are in your fitness you may need more, or less, time at each interval step. Also, don't be afraid to reduce or increase the rate of change, if it feels right. The "pacing" of my changes was set up to allow me to rebuild strength in the hamstring while putting in the miles without reinjury. Hope this helps!

@camaker I am totally going to steal this as I'm about ready to go back to running after my recent adductor injury (~2.5 weeks off). I know I wanted to go back to slower intervals for the first few runs, but hadn't decided how I was going to do this. I think this will work for me ... Except for the full running part. lol

************

So yesterday was my first full day of no soreness or pain in my leg. So, I'm excited yet scared to go back to running. I was considering laying off until next Tuesday, which will have given me a full 3 weeks since I first shut it down. I've started doing some stretches at night, nothing too crazy, and I have no pain when doing it. I just don't want to re-injure it!

@r2d2_runner I do not cross-train at all. My regular running plan is running 3 days/week and that's it. For me, just getting to do this consistently was progress for me. Any time I tried to do any kind of cross-training, my legs would be so sore I couldn't run, so I decided to skip it. I figured running alone would give me the leg strength I needed eventually. It took a while, but I did get injured recently. The spot I injured has always been a sore spot after my runs. Related? Who knows. But I'm joining a gym this week. LOL.

 

[camaker]

LOL! As long as you're ordering me a water! Haven't had any alcohol in 5+ years.

You got it! I rarely drink alcohol myself. I average maybe one drink a year, usually a margarita somewhere. That being said, the Italian Margherita at Tutto Italia just about makes me rethink that stance!!

 

[roxymama]

Dang! Yeah, we don't get Bear Republic in North Texas ... I read somewhere that they were pulling out of the Texas market all together, which stinks because it's delicious.

Disneyland's IPA of choice is Sculpin from Ballast Point ... SOOOOOO GOOD.

You will be in Chicago this year right? My basement is basically a stockpile of any and all mid-west bourbon barrel aged beers. If I end up volunteering for the marathon like I want to, I may have to sneak something to you at some point

 

[Chaitali]

This is me too! I gut up to running intervals of .25 mile run/walk intervals, but for the most part it has made me slower. I honestly am having trouble deciding which is more important to me, pace or time spent actually running.

I know that I'd rather finish my runs faster rather than just running without intervals for the sake of saying I can do it without walking. But perversely, I feel like since I set this as a goal at the beginning of the year I need to just do one 5k without walk intervals so that I can say I did it. That way, I feel like keeping the walk intervals was a choice rather than because I couldn't do it otherwise. Sounds silly, I know. But that's where I'm currently at. I figure whether I have walk intervals or not, the number of miles is the same.

Any time I tried to do any kind of cross-training, my legs would be so sore I couldn't run, so I decided to skip it. I figured running alone would give me the leg strength I needed eventually.

Yeah, it does hurt the first couple times. I generally try to introduce new cross training in the off season so I'm not actively training for a big race or anything. When I'm not in the middle of a formal training plan, I'm ok prioritizing other types of activity and if that means missing a run or two while I'm concentrating on getting used to a different type of activity, that's ok with me. But it completely depends on your priorities at the time.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

Not directed at me but I thought I'd jump in. One of my goals for the year was to try to eliminate the walk intervals for shorter races. I've been doing 2:30 running and :30 walking. I just did this by gradually increasing the time period before I started my walk intervals. I got up to doing 5k races and not taking a walk break until mile 2 or so. But I noticed that it's actually made me slower In order to be able to maintain the running for longer periods without taking a walk break, my run pace had to go down. I'm currently trying to decide whether I want to keep going with this goal just to say I did it or amend it since it doesn't seem to be making me faster.

Yup. Jeff Galloway actually mentions a few experienced runners who got faster after he convinced them to incorporate scheduled walk breaks. Maybe it has something to do with how the legs get a chance to recover (perhaps push out some lactate?), and the heart rate settling down. Who knows. 2:30/:30 is pretty good. I think you shouldn't worry about eliminating the walk breaks, but instead experiment with the run times. Think about how it feels at the end of 2:30, the on the next run bump it up to 2:45, and keep it there until the end of that time feels like the end of 2:30.

When I first started, I was begging for my walk break. But I got up to 4:30/:30 before I got hurt, and I'm slowly building back up (1:45/:30 right now). I may be back there by Wine & Dine.

ATTQOTD: I've already started for Dopey, as DW and I are using Galloway. His plans are long, and are designed to get people over the finish line. There are 3 runs a week until the last couple months when the extras come in.

Here's a question, though: Any thoughts on what to do if you've got a race in the middle of your plan that doesn't have enough miles? On Wine and Dine weekend, the plan calls for 8.5m on Sat. and 20m on Sunday. We'll only be running 6.2 and 13.1, of course. (We've thought about running around the parking lot before or after the races to get our miles in. Boy would we look ridiculous.)