artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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Bush didn't say it, some unnamed "official" did and that's a story from yesterday which no major media has picked up.
The President of the United States
- Thread starter we3luvdisney
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faithinkarma
<font color="green">I'm not a good swimmer, but I
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Thanks, you are right, I fixed it.
artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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Unfortunately, people have been disrespecting the office of the President since the beginning. Not that that's any excuse.
Used to wasn't the word "president" always capitalized when it referred to the leader of our country? I thought it was but have noticed that it usually isn't anymore.
You know, we've had plenty of Presidents who disrespected the office themselves.
On both sides.
we3luvdisney
<font color=blue>I admit it. I am a <font color=pu
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ITA
I remember a quote from The Band of Brothers, where the main character said to a lower rank officer (Ross, from Friends), "you're not saluting the man, but the rank". I may have gotten the quote wrong, but I know you understand.
Kendra17
"Kendra17" is a consortium of political analysts a
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What does it take? This is from David Kay's OWN testimony and/or reports:
________________________
We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:
* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.
* A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.
* Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.
* New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.
* Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).
* A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.
* Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.
* Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.
* Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.
In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence - hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use - are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts. For example,
* On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.
* All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.
* Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.
_______________________________________
Obviously, if you read it through, there is/was evidence of a WMD program and of WMDs themselves. Now, there weren't STOCKPILES, because they DESTROYED them.
Why are you so eager to exonerate Saddam/Iraq, and accuse Bush AND then find him guilty? What more evidence do you need than David Kay's own testimony?
It seems so many folks here (lefties) are unwilling to accept ANY EVIDENCE that would prove Bush is not lying, the war in Iraq is completely justified, and what the U.S. is doing, in general, is correct.
There are 2 reasons for this. The first reason is the absurd notion is that Bush stole the election and is an illegitimate President.
Secondly, and more importantly, is that by denying any and all facts that are contrary to their position, they can hold on, desperately, to their pre-9-11 world view. Their resistance, loud, extreme, and shrill to any facts that would undermine their closely held world view, is indicative of their profound desire to retain a world that exist anymore.
The United States, as the Beacon of Liberty, City on the Hill, has a responsibility to its friends and to its citizens to secure its continued existence. In order to do that, the United States must now do things that, pre 9-11, would have been unthinkable and unpalatable.
Now we are engaged in a great existential struggle, testing whether that nation so concieved and so dedicated shall endure. It is the constitutional responsibility of the Chief Executive, Bush, to secure the existence of the United States. He ought not to be criticized for doing his duty. Thankfully, he is doing it. (with thanks to A.L.)
________________________
We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:
* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.
* A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.
* Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.
* New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.
* Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).
* A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.
* Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.
* Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.
* Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.
In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence - hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use - are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts. For example,
* On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.
* All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.
* Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.
_______________________________________
Obviously, if you read it through, there is/was evidence of a WMD program and of WMDs themselves. Now, there weren't STOCKPILES, because they DESTROYED them.
Why are you so eager to exonerate Saddam/Iraq, and accuse Bush AND then find him guilty? What more evidence do you need than David Kay's own testimony?
It seems so many folks here (lefties) are unwilling to accept ANY EVIDENCE that would prove Bush is not lying, the war in Iraq is completely justified, and what the U.S. is doing, in general, is correct.
There are 2 reasons for this. The first reason is the absurd notion is that Bush stole the election and is an illegitimate President.
Secondly, and more importantly, is that by denying any and all facts that are contrary to their position, they can hold on, desperately, to their pre-9-11 world view. Their resistance, loud, extreme, and shrill to any facts that would undermine their closely held world view, is indicative of their profound desire to retain a world that exist anymore.
The United States, as the Beacon of Liberty, City on the Hill, has a responsibility to its friends and to its citizens to secure its continued existence. In order to do that, the United States must now do things that, pre 9-11, would have been unthinkable and unpalatable.
Now we are engaged in a great existential struggle, testing whether that nation so concieved and so dedicated shall endure. It is the constitutional responsibility of the Chief Executive, Bush, to secure the existence of the United States. He ought not to be criticized for doing his duty. Thankfully, he is doing it. (with thanks to A.L.)
artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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I was responding to gr8tpanther's assertion that the country had always been in debt. The comment had nothin to do with 9/11 or Iraq.
That being said, Bush's insistence against even some in his party that tax cuts go on hasn't helped the deficit.
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
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Originally posted by faithinkarma
Yes, of course I am. I am surprised you would even ask.
Did they take in enough to pay down the deficit?How many months of surplus do you think it would take to pay this deficit down. I do not understand why people are so unconcerned about this huge debt hanging over our heads. Just like you and I can only survive on credit for so long, so can the country.
I'm confused.
Are you saying that you will reject the tax AND pay additional money?
If you're going to pay more, how much? (If not too bold of me to ask).
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
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From increased tax revenues from businesses that are doing better from the tax cuts and pay more (not a percentage increase) in taxes (because the make more money), when more people are on the payrolls, from increase sales/excise taxes on good from people who have more money to spend.
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
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No, it was a PROJECTED surplus. Not a real one.
If there was a real surplus, why did we slip into a recession just as Clinton was leaving and before Bush had a chance to get a handle on things?
artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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Yes, as I said I read that but there were no stockpiles as Bush claimed. They were supposed to have destroyed them. That was the UN mandate. I doubt they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD in the build up to the war without us knowing it.
It's not a matter of Saddam vs Bush, it's a matter of the Truth and what this misadventure is costing us.
Why is it when anyone disagrees, they are "lefties" and unAmerican (not your word there)? There's nothing more American than disagreeing when necessary and I for one am no leftie. I'm an independent who has voted for both Republicans and Democrats.
If he'd have committed the amount of troops now in Iraq to Afghanistan, we'd have bin Laden now. That's whose a threat to us. So, I don't see where Bush has done his best to secure the existence of our country.
ThreeCircles
<font color=blue>Stays up past 3:00 am (have you s
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That's right, because Democrats balance budgets and deficits are for republicans!
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
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Originally posted by ThreeCircles
That's right, because Democrats balance budgets and deficits are for republicans!
Really? Then what happened to it? Why was there a recession? And you CAN'T blame Bush because he wasn't in office long enough to cause it.
artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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I don't think there's a corelation between a surplus and a recession or why would there be any recovery, weak as it is, when we have a deficit?
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
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We're have a weak recovery? Now?
ThreeCircles
<font color=blue>Stays up past 3:00 am (have you s
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What happened to it? Must you ask? W happened to it, duh!
Kendra17
"Kendra17" is a consortium of political analysts a
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You know, had the evidence not been systematically destroyed by the Iraqis under Saddam, there actually may have been stockpiles found. As it is, there is ample evidence that there was an existing WMD program, in addition to the weapons that actually were found. What is a "stockpile", by the way, when you are talking about small amounts of biological or chemical weapons that only take a small amount to do damage. Do we need a warehouse of sarin, FOR EXAMPLE? An ounce of certain chemical weapons can kill thousands. If an ounce can kill thousands, then is a "stockpile" a gallon? A garage full? A warehouse? A test tube? Stockpile is quite the nebulous word.
________________________
I doubt they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD in the build up to the war without us knowing it.
____________________________________
That's a feeling, you doubting that they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD. . .Maybe you're right though, maybe they took their stockpiles to Syria.
They were SYSTEMATICALLY destroying evidence! The inspectors hadn't been allowed in. Furthermore, all of Kay's findings are STILL proof that Saddam was defying the United Nations' resolutions. . .in which case we STILL were completely correct in our response.
________________________
I doubt they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD in the build up to the war without us knowing it.
____________________________________
That's a feeling, you doubting that they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD. . .Maybe you're right though, maybe they took their stockpiles to Syria.
They were SYSTEMATICALLY destroying evidence! The inspectors hadn't been allowed in. Furthermore, all of Kay's findings are STILL proof that Saddam was defying the United Nations' resolutions. . .in which case we STILL were completely correct in our response.
artgrowden
Earning My Ears
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Yes, of the seven major economic indicators, 4 are shaky.
Retail sales dropped in June
Manufacturing growth slowed
Industrial production slipped
Job growth was less than half of what was predicted
sounds weak to me.
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