The President of the United States

Originally posted by artgrowden
Why is it when anyone disagrees, they are "lefties" and unAmerican (not your word there)? There's nothing more American than disagreeing when necessary and I for one am no leftie.

Not everyone is a "leftie" for disagreeing! When they ignore the facts, though (like the David Kay report, for example), state there's a weak economy, when our economy is in fact the strongest it's been in 20 years, well, then, they're lefties. At least to me. Feel free to disagree; you're an American.

Sometimes it sneaks up on you. Conservatism did for me.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
I doubt they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD in the build up to the war without us knowing it.
____________________________________

That's a feeling, you doubting that they could have destroyed stockpiles of WMD. . .Maybe you're right though, maybe they took their stockpiles to Syria.

They were SYSTEMATICALLY destroying evidence! The inspectors hadn't been allowed in. Furthermore, all of Kay's findings are STILL proof that Saddam was defying the United Nations' resolutions. . .in which case we STILL were completely correct in our response.

I said I doubted it because we were watching what they were doing. Satellites and such.
Plus, as I recall the inspectors had to leave before the war started. So, they were there maybe not getting to see much at the time, things as they were but there. Even if he was defying the UN, we didn't have to resort to all out war at that moment!

Look, you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you. Let's leave it at that.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
You know, had the evidence not been systematically destroyed by the Iraqis under Saddam, there actually may have been stockpiles found.

Oh, is that the story this week?

No WMDs because they were destroyed! :rotfl:

Too funny! But, seriously...
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Not everyone is a "leftie" for disagreeing! When they ignore the facts, though (like the David Kay report, for example), state there's a weak economy, when our economy is in fact the strongest it's been in 20 years, well, then, they're lefties. At least to me. Feel free to disagree; you're an American.

Sometimes it sneaks up on you. Conservatism did for me.

The idea that the economy is the strongest it's been in twenty years is ignoring the facts.

See my earlier post.
 

Originally posted by Kendra17
when our economy is in fact the strongest it's been in 20 years, well, then, they're lefties.

Oh my gosh! Are you serious? Talk about RNC Talking points! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

1.8 million jobs have been lost under the shrubs administration...

Oh, wow! What a rosey economy! :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by artgrowden
I said I doubted it because we were watching what they were doing. Satellites and such.
Plus, as I recall the inspectors had to leave before the war started. So, they were there maybe not getting to see much at the time, things as they were but there. Even if he was defying the UN, we didn't have to resort to all out war at that moment!

. . .all out war at that moment? There were months of preparation and threats and cajoling and negotiations through the UN. This is absolutely why you are now a lefty! No, we didn't have to resort to all out war at that moment. We could have gone to war immediately after the Cessation of Hostilities agreement was made, since they NEVER complied since then! Ugh!

You needed "lefty" definition. I don't really know how others define it, but my definition includes those who respond with their "feelings", respond in the way they wish things were. . .instead of with facts and the way things really are!
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
You needed "lefty" definition. I don't really know how others define it, but my definition includes those who respond with their "feelings", respond in the way they wish things were. . .instead of with facts and the way things really are!

I think you may be describing the right-wingers. And if the shoe fits...
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Oh, is that the story this week?

No WMDs because they were destroyed! :rotfl:

Too funny! But, seriously...

That would be funny if that was all I said. . .but, it's not. That was a concluding comment I made in a specific context, as you know. If you can systematically eliminate every proof of WMD and WMD programs, including David Kay's report , then there is no discussion to be had.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
That would be funny if that was all I said. . .but, it's not. That was a concluding comment I made in a specific context, as you know. If you can systematically eliminate every proof of WMD, including David Kay's report , then there is no discussion to be had.

Here's an idea, how about we find the WMDs. Oh, wait! We haven't!
 
uhh, yeah, we did find WMD and ample evidenceof WMD programs. . .look at the report excerpt on the last page or the one or two before. The word "stockpiles" is the only thing under dispute.

G'night
 
I call Bush, shrub all the time. I can't stand the man and its not like he cares.

I even have an icon on one forum that I go on that says "Forget that Shrub. Vote scruffy (who is a little white dog) for President. It just makes sense"

I love the icon and I would use it here but somehow I don't think it would be allowed.

:)
 
I don't remember where I picked up "Shrub", but I know what it means to me: "Has intelligence relative to your average hedge" ::yes::

As for the Presidents of the United States of America...didn't they do that song "Lump" a few years ago ?

:teeth:

Oh, wait.....you meant this guy, right ?

bush_frenchflag.jpg
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Oh my gosh! Are you serious? Talk about RNC Talking points! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

1.8 million jobs have been lost under the shrubs administration...

Oh, wow! What a rosey economy! :rolleyes:

1.2 million and shrinking every month actually. Substantial gains have occurred in each of the past six months. So yeah, I'd say the economy is doing pretty well.
 
Kendra17

Once again I had to go in search of your "facts". It would be so much easier if you would supply links.

um...this david kay report...would that be the one he delivered in 2003? You are basing the "facts" of your premise on a report that was presented last year. Kinda makes one speculate why all these "facts" available since last year were not included in the commitee's report doesn't it? Well, perhaps not you, but some of us might wonder.

Makes me wonder why you did not chose to select this report from 2004
"David Kay's remarks over the weekend—that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction before the war and that U.S. intelligence agencies missed the signs that would have told them as much—held few surprises for anyone who'd closely read his official report on the matter last October." http://slate.msn.com/id/2094415

Is that the David Kay you have been citing as proof positive? If so, you might want to read the entire article I presented as it goes on to say "Kay made these same points in his report last October, but it was easy to overlook them—in fact, the reader was meant to. Kay didn't exactly lie in the report; the points were there if you looked carefully; but he did his best to camouflage them. "

Need I go on? Or would you like to once more tell us all how everyone who disagrees with you is blinded by feelings and ignoring the truth? You accused us of ignoring the wonderful david kay report. May I suggest that we had good reason to ignore it?
 
Originally posted by jennyanydots
your statements about FDR are misleading. Japan and Germany were allies. we could not have fought againt Janpan without addressing Germany.

Even more, once we declared war on Japan, Germany, in support of her ally, declared war on us and Britain.
 
Originally posted by gometros
Even more, once we declared war on Japan, Germany, in support of her ally, declared war on us and Britain.
Not to mention the fact that both Germany and Japan were agressors, and Germany was waging war against one of our allies...There is nobody here arguing that the 1st Gulf War wasn't called for (at least, not that I've seen). So kindly step off your oh-so-superior high ground and realize that the two situations are not remotely comparable (no matter how many times the RNC tries to beat it into the heads of the uninformed).
 
Originally posted by jrydberg
1.2 million and shrinking every month actually. Substantial gains have occurred in each of the past six months. So yeah, I'd say the economy is doing pretty well.

For an excellent analysis of the job market see NY Times article at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/business/yourmoney/18view.html

"IF President Bush was correct when he asserted recently that the economy was strong and getting stronger, why are so many people not only out of work but also not looking for jobs?

Mr. Bush noted with evident relief that the nation had added 1.5 million jobs since last August. Senator John Kerry and his supporters complain that the country still has about a million fewer jobs than when Mr. Bush took office.

But neither statement captures properly the shortfall of jobs that has built up over the last three years. An accurate estimate is not one million but four million, and possibly higher.

Consider just one figure. Since June 2000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of adults considered "not in the labor force" - those who don't have jobs and are not looking for them - has grown by about 4.4 million, to 66.6 million."

The article is long, not as negative as the first paragraphs would suggest, and worth reading.
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
The article is long, not as negative as the first paragraphs would suggest, and worth reading.

It's also not blowing smoke up the president's...um...Secretary of State...so don't hold your breath on the administration's "True Believers" bothering to read it ::yes::
 
Well, I'm not reading it because I'm not going to register to read it. That said, the point I was trying to make is that the economy is in pretty good shape now. It is adding jobs at a considerable pace and inflation remains relatively low.

Of course it is a significant concern that many jobs were lost in the previous couple years. But clearly the economy is moving rather strongly in the right direction. I'm not saying everything's rosy. There's quite a hole to climb out of. But we are well on our way to climbing out of it. I think that's fairly good given the circumstances we've seen.
 
EDMUND L. ANDREWS

Published: July 18, 2004


ASHINGTON

IF President Bush was correct when he asserted recently that the economy was strong and getting stronger, why are so many people not only out of work but also not looking for jobs?

Mr. Bush noted with evident relief that the nation had added 1.5 million jobs since last August. Senator John Kerry and his supporters complain that the country still has about a million fewer jobs than when Mr. Bush took office.

But neither statement captures properly the shortfall of jobs that has built up over the last three years. An accurate estimate is not one million but four million, and possibly higher.

Consider just one figure. Since June 2000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of adults considered "not in the labor force" - those who don't have jobs and are not looking for them - has grown by about 4.4 million, to 66.6 million.

The political significance is obvious: if the shortage has been formed by millions of additional discouraged job seekers, Mr. Bush will have a much harder time persuading voters that the economy is heading in the right direction.

The economic issue is important in its own right. If the United States has a huge reserve pool of workers, Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve may be correct in asserting that the economy has room to expand without big wage increases. That would reduce inflationary pressure and allow the Fed to raise interest rates slowly.

But if workers are being displaced by more fundamental forces, like a growing mismatch between their skills and the needs of the marketplace, the pool of untapped labor could become a cauldron of frustration and resentment.

First, the numbers. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the nation added 112,000 payroll jobs in June, for a total of 131.3 million. For those watching Mr. Bush's scorecard on jobs, that total is 1.5 million higher than it was last August, and down 1.2 million from a peak in March 2001. But the recent increases greatly overstate the job growth.

The United States adult population has been growing about 1.4 million a year. Even if a third of those extra people don't want jobs - choosing, say, to be stay-at-home parents - the potential work force would still have expanded by more than three million since the start of 2001.

The unemployment rate would be much higher than the current 5.6 percent, except that millions of people have dropped out of the work force. In a downturn, it is normal for many people to become so pessimistic that they stop looking for work. It is also normal for them to jump back into the market when prospects improve.

But in this recovery, optimism remains muted. The "labor participation rate," the percentage of people who either have jobs or are looking for them, has barely begun to revive after dropping sharply since 2000.

Among adults in their prime earning years, ages 25 to 54, the work force participation rate has dropped to 82.8 percent from 83.9 percent in 2000. That may seem a minuscule decline, but it is the lowest rate since 1987, and it translates into millions of people. In June 2000, the Labor Department estimated that 62.2 million people over the age of 20 were "not in the labor force." By this June, the number had jumped to 66.6 million. The extra 4.4 million amounted to more than half of the 8.2 million people officially labeled unemployed.

Economists say the trend is beginning to reverse, as people become more optimistic about job prospects.

"It's pretty clear that employers are starting to hire again," said Jared Bernstein, senior economist at the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research organization. "Even the most cautious employers are being forced to pull the trigger."

Even so, job creation has not come close to the pace reached in previous recoveries, including the "jobless recovery" of the early 1990's.

There is a curious countertrend to the muted picture, but it may not be encouraging: the one group that is working more than ever is people older than 60.

Because people remain healthy far later in life, it is not surprising that more are working past the traditional retirement age. According to a recent survey by AARP, 80 percent of baby boomers said they expected to work at least some after they retired.

But many older people are also working because they need the money - because their pensions are too slim, their debt loads too high or their savings too meager. Whatever the reason, older people snapped up about a third of the 1.5 million jobs created since August. About 250,000 went to people 60 to 64 years old, and about the same number to people 65 and up.

The evidence, meanwhile, suggests that the jobs being created pay less than the old jobs that were lost. Stephen S. Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley, estimated that 44 percent of the hiring from February to June was in lower-paying jobs and that 81 percent of total job growth over the last year had been in lower-paying occupations like retail sales and transportation.

"A likely persistence of low-quality job creation could jeopardize sustained economic recovery," Mr. Roach wrote recently. "To the extent that it legitimizes perceptions of worker angst, it could also turn into one of the biggest issues in the upcoming U.S. presidential campaign."

WHITE HOUSE officials say that there is no reliable data on whether people are getting good jobs or bad jobs. And though average wages in expanding areas like hospital care and retail sales are lower than in shrinking areas like manufacturing, real income has historically increased even as the industrial mix has changed.

The deeper question is whether American workers have the skills they need for higher-paying work.

Mr. Greenspan has repeatedly warned that the United States faces a growing mismatch between the oversupply of low-skilled workers and the unmet demand for people with specialty training. He has pleaded for big increases in spending on community colleges and vocational training schools. The Bush administration has provided some extra money, but the effort has been long on fanfare and short on cash.

If Mr. Greenspan is right, and if nothing changes, the implications could be grave. The real level of unemployment would remain elevated. Income disparities between the low skilled and the highly skilled would widen. And that reserve of workers deemed not in the labor force would remain on the outside.
 













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