The 'Planning Backlash'

[Zhaan]

It's all personal preference. End of story. Some like to plan and some don't.

I feel it is ridiculus to even be able to make appointments to ride a roller coaster. But this is what theme parks are now.

I agree completely. I don't like having to plan 60 days out what day I'll be where and what I'll be riding. We rarely do table service so I could literally decide where to go the day of and just wing it. Sure you can do that now if you are willing to stand in some really long lines or skip some popular attractions, but I don't want to do that either, so I feel forced to pick where I'll be 60 days out. That's not fun to me, not vacation to me. What's worse is even though I don't like it, I do still want to go, but my husband doesn't at all anymore. We have an AP now and already committed to taking some family next year, but after that I fear I will rarely see Disney and that makes me sad.

I know they won't get rid of it, but I hope in the next couple of years they will make some changes to make the system better and/or add enough new entertainment to entice him to overlook this new planning he hates.

 

[JimmyV]

I've planned two weeks in Hawaii with much less stress IMO, but they don't tell me I can book my hotel whenever I want, then I have to wait until 6 months to book my restaurants and then a month before I arrive to book my activities. I mean if I booked private beach dining at 6 months and then tried to book our ATV day trip only to find out the ONLY day we could do it was the same day our private beach dinner was booked I would be upset, but nothing else in the world works that way. To be even more specific when we stayed at Princeville resort they allowed us to book our room, reservations and resort activities all at the same time...wanna know why? It makes sense and makes guests happy. If WDW planning was applied to any other vacation destination people would go bonkers, but for whatever reason people give WDW a pass on ridiculousness. I still like going, but I do find it to be stupid when it comes to their planning.

That sums it up just about as well as can be done. An excellent real world example of the differences that exist between planning a WDW visit and a visit to just about any other location. It's all about the deadlines. And all about the different and non-interlocking deadlines.

I can see how that would be a quite involved process.

And wow--a million???? If you can land a reservation <4 months ahead of time with only 1% getting seated, that is jaw dropping amazing.

In its final years, reservations at El Bulli were not so much "reservations" as they were "applications". Requests were taken beginning on a single date, (in October). Requests were made by email to the maitre'd and typically included a brief explanation of the reasons why the reservation was sought. The staff went through the applications and hand-selected the 8,000 successful applicants. If you had dined there previously, there was a good chance that you would be denied. If you wrote some pathetic self-important plea such as "we have dined at all of the best restaurants in the world and our lives will not be complete until we dine at El Bulli", you would likely get denied. There has never been a definitive explanation as to who got in or why, but humility seems to have played a part. You did not get to select your date and time. (They only had one seating a night). If you were selected, you were told which day they could accommodate you, and it was up to you to get to Spain at that time. Since they were only open half the year, you sort of had a window of when you might be accepted. My wife and I decided to try for a reservation in 2012...and then they announced that they would close in 2011. And in the final two years, the number of applications was not 1 million per year. It was 2 million!

 

[JimmyV]

We took a family trip to NYC a few years ago and to get into the best most popular Broadway shows and some restaurants would have required weeks if not months of advance reservations.

To be fair, anyone can get a ticket to any Broadway show right up to the day of the performance. You just have to be willing to pay. After-market ticket brokers can sell you a ticket to pretty much anything you want. No such after-market exists (yet) for Anna and Elsa. As for restaurants, while it is common for restaurants to have a cut-off date for reservations (often 60 days in advance and sometimes 30 days in advance), the number of restaurants in NYC where you are not guaranteed of getting a table if you call (or use Open Table) on that first day of availability probably numbers around 2. Per Se and Babbo are two of the harder tables to book, but I am batting a thousand in my efforts to book tables there when I do it on the first day of availability. And again, to be fair, I am batting about .990 at WDW with BoG and CRT being the only restaurants that I could not get by booking 180 days out. We don't do 10 day vacations and often stay at the Swan/Dolphin, so I have never been able to take advantage of the 180+10 benefit. But even at 180 days, I have gotten well over 90% of what I have been after.

 

[JimmyV]

Putting the flexibility issue aside, which is a valid gripe, I think we can probably mostly agree, even without FP+ in the picture, between Extra Magic Hours, park opening and closing times, entertainment schedules, ADRs for meals (which many people make long before the FP+ 60 day mark), crowd calendars, recommended park days on the various blogs.......well, most people have a very firm idea of what park they are going to be in on what day, no? And they likely know this before the 60 day FP+ window opens.

I think you just did an excellent job of making the point for the opposing view. No one needs crowd calendars, recommended days, extra early hours, fast passes or blogs to go to Volcano National Park on Hawaii, to see the Mona Lisa, to view the Roman Forum or to view the Grand Canyon!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That sums it up just about as well as can be done. An excellent real world example of the differences that exist between planning a WDW visit and a visit to just about any other location. It's all about the deadlines. And all about the different and non-interlocking deadlines.



In its final years, reservations at El Bulli were not so much "reservations" as they were "applications". Requests were taken beginning on a single date, (in October). Requests were made by email to the maitre'd and typically included a brief explanation of the reasons why the reservation was sought. The staff went through the applications and hand-selected the 8,000 successful applicants. If you had dined there previously, there was a good chance that you would be denied. If you wrote some pathetic self-important plea such as "we have dined at all of the best restaurants in the world and our lives will not be complete until we dine at El Bulli", you would likely get denied. There has never been a definitive explanation as to who got in or why, but humility seems to have played a part. You did not get to select your date and time. (They only had one seating a night). If you were selected, you were told which day they could accommodate you, and it was up to you to get to Spain at that time. Since they were only open half the year, you sort of had a window of when you might be accepted. My wife and I decided to try for a reservation in 2012...and then they announced that they would close in 2011. And in the final two years, the number of applications was not 1 million per year. It was 2 million!

I would rather stalk FP+ at midnight and cry in a corner for being denied a ride.

Holy cow is that insane! I'm sure their food and service were stellar. But I will just have of suffer for Victoria and Albert's and this place: http://www.laubergechezfrancois.com

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think you just did an excellent job of making the point for the opposing view. No one needs crowd calendars, recommended days, extra early hours, fast passes or blogs to go to Volcano National Park on Hawaii, to see the Mona Lisa, to view the Roman Forum or to view the Grand Canyon!

I don't need all of that to go to Disney. Just need to know when it opens and closes. Just like I would need to know for the Louvre.

Funny story--when we were planning for a trip to Paris, I came across this very simple book called Paris with Kids. It had tips for traveling with children of different ages and we had the "small children" part traveling with a 3yo and 17 month old. That book said to pick one or two things in the Louvre and they would be enough. Boy were they right. Though after the Mona Lisa Hunt, my 3yo was done. So being the good mom I was, who wanted to see the avenue de Milo--but needed my impatient 3yo to be patient.....I had her point out all the statues with their behinds showing. Us classy Americans.

I will hand it to Disney--no need to use nekkid bottoms to keep a 3yo entertained. If only my Paris with Children book listed that as a tip.

 

[JimmyV]

I would rather stalk FP+ at midnight and cry in a corner for being denied a ride.

Holy cow is that insane! I'm sure their food and service were stellar. But I will just have of suffer for Victoria and Albert's and this place: http://www.laubergechezfrancois.com

It became a monster that fed on itself. Part of the reason it closed.

 

[JimmyV]

Funny story--when we were planning for a trip to Paris, I came across this very simple book called Paris with Kids. It had tips for traveling with children of different ages and we had the "small children" part traveling with a 3yo and 17 month old.

Brave parents. Our daughter was 11 when we went to the Louvre and by then she was a real museum hound. I was ready to leave much sooner than she was! But I did pick up a copy of that same book before we left. And in all of this discussion, I find it meaningful to point out that whether one agrees or disagrees with the notion that foreign travel is less complex than Disney travel, if one is a seasoned Disney veteran, it sure makes other travel easier. My daughter had been to WDW in 8 of her 8 years before she went to Italy and 9 of her 11 years before we went to France. And by that time, she understood the value of "rope drop", pre-planning, and passes that allow you to bypass the admission desk. Those "Disney strategies" sure do come in handy when you want to see David, the Sistine Chapel and the Mona Lisa.

 

[Luckybee]

That sums it up just about as well as can be done. An excellent real world example of the differences that exist between planning a WDW visit and a visit to just about any other location. It's all about the deadlines. And all about the different and non-interlocking deadlines.



In its final years, reservations at El Bulli were not so much "reservations" as they were "applications". Requests were taken beginning on a single date, (in October). Requests were made by email to the maitre'd and typically included a brief explanation of the reasons why the reservation was sought. The staff went through the applications and hand-selected the 8,000 successful applicants. If you had dined there previously, there was a good chance that you would be denied. If you wrote some pathetic self-important plea such as "we have dined at all of the best restaurants in the world and our lives will not be complete until we dine at El Bulli", you would likely get denied. There has never been a definitive explanation as to who got in or why, but humility seems to have played a part. You did not get to select your date and time. (They only had one seating a night). If you were selected, you were told which day they could accommodate you, and it was up to you to get to Spain at that time. Since they were only open half the year, you sort of had a window of when you might be accepted. My wife and I decided to try for a reservation in 2012...and then they announced that they would close in 2011. And in the final two years, the number of applications was not 1 million per year. It was 2 million!

Not to take this to far afield but it didn't work this way with us. We wrote a letter before our trip indicating what days we would be in the area and why we wanted to dine there. We were not ott with our request but we did outline some of the medical issues I had gone through in the previous few years and that may have been the deciding factor but who knows ? Bottom line and relevant to these discussions...it was easier than getting into BOG which we couldn't do for any of the 2 weeks in Sept/Oct that we were in MCO, and now that we have a res for May it looks like we'll have to give it up because the day isn't going to work ....grrrr !

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

To be fair, anyone can get a ticket to any Broadway show right up to the day of the performance. You just have to be willing to pay. After-market ticket brokers can sell you a ticket to pretty much anything you want. No such after-market exists (yet) for Anna and Elsa. As for restaurants, while it is common for restaurants to have a cut-off date for reservations (often 60 days in advance and sometimes 30 days in advance), the number of restaurants in NYC where you are not guaranteed of getting a table if you call (or use Open Table) on that first day of availability probably numbers around 2. Per Se and Babbo are two of the harder tables to book, but I am batting a thousand in my efforts to book tables there when I do it on the first day of availability. And again, to be fair, I am batting about .990 at WDW with BoG and CRT being the only restaurants that I could not get by booking 180 days out. We don't do 10 day vacations and often stay at the Swan/Dolphin, so I have never been able to take advantage of the 180+10 benefit. But even at 180 days, I have gotten well over 90% of what I have been after.

To be fair--I can wait in an Anna and Elsa line for free. And I know for certain I won't be stuck in the last row of the balcony having to see then from afar.
Don't know any broadway shows with a free alternative.

To get a same day broadway ticket, my luck hinges on popularity of the show and what seats are left. We don't like sitting way in the back or far to the side.
And I certainly don't want to over pay for the privilege. I also have no desire to wait in line at the ticket booth in Times Square. Maybe one day I will. But that would be a planning choice.

FP+ for Anna and Elsa seem to be very restricted in number to begin with--a theater by comparison, possibly accommodates more even with one showing a day.

And we have good luck getting something last minute at Disney. The 24 hour cancellation deadline has been helpful. For example, this last trip, Biergarten was booked solid. But the night before, we were able to book 2 "larger" sized parties (6 and 7 people).

As you say--it is practically limited to BOG and CRT and maybe one or two others on an extremely busy day in all of Disney. And the larger the party, then the more limitations you will have.

Successfully Securing 6 seats together for my family at the last minute for a popular show on Broadway will be more of a challenge than a smaller party.

We are growing to 7--so the problem for us just got a little more limiting.

 

[Luckybee]

I would rather stalk FP+ at midnight and cry in a corner for being denied a ride.

Holy cow is that insane! I'm sure their food and service were stellar. But I will just have of suffer for Victoria and Albert's and this place: http://www.laubergechezfrancois.com

That restaurant looks lovely. At first I thought it was in Orlando and got all excited. We aren't usually in the DC area but if we ever do....well thanks for that

 

[JimmyV]

Not to take this to far afield but it didn't work this way with us.

But it sounds as if it worked exactly that way for you. You made a request and you were selected. As opposed to a more conventional reservation system where you get a table if there is one available on the day and time that you are seeking. If what you meant was that you didn't put in your request in October, then perhaps I wasn't clear. October was when one could start to make requests. One did not have to make a request on that first day, (I don't think any email system could handle 2 million requests in a day), and I am not aware that doing so gave anyone an advantage. But if you made your request on September 30, it was discarded and not considered. And yes, letters were accepted. But the vast majority of requests came by email in the final years.

 

[JimmyV]

To be fair--I can wait in an Anna and Elsa line for free. And I know for certain I won't be stuck in the last row of the balcony having to see then from afar.
Don't know any broadway shows with a free alternative.

Free? Didn't you pay to get into the park? And hasn't A&E been "FP+ Only" on certain days? And if you buy from a broker, you aren't stuck in the last row. They sell the better seats.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not to take this to far afield but it didn't work this way with us. We wrote a letter before our trip indicating what days we would be in the area and why we wanted to dine there. We were not ott with our request but we did outline some of the medical issues I had gone through in the previous few years and that may have been the deciding factor but who knows ? Bottom line and relevant to these discussions...it was easier than getting into BOG which we couldn't do for any of the 2 weeks in Sept/Oct that we were in MCO, and now that we have a res for May it looks like we'll have to give it up because the day isn't going to work ....grrrr !

It is interesting that you say it was easier for you. You did one simple action and essentially won a lottery by getting in.

But I wonder if my odds of getting in were any better. We don't have any compelling stories.

*now I am being skeptical*
It seems a subjective system that depends solely on the moods, opinions, and whims of a select group of "judges" would be infinitely more difficult since you lack any control in improving your odds. (Decreasing to less than a half percent in their final year of operation.)

Had they had an objective system--call, attempt to find an available reservation for the date/time you desire, you would have not experienced the same luck. And you would have had to decide if it was important to keep trying or just move on to the next option.

Your odds most likely were many times better for getting into BOG. But again, capacity rules the day.

Your experience with the letter writing was easier because they only required that of you and you succeeded. But for the other 99%, they failed.

 

[Luckybee]

But it sounds as if it worked exactly that way for you. You made a request and you were selected. As opposed to a more conventional reservation system where you get a table if there is one available on the day and time that you are seeking. If what you meant was that you didn't put in your request in October, then perhaps I wasn't clear. October was when one could start to make requests. One did not have to make a request on that first day, (I don't think any email system could handle 2 million requests in a day), and I am not aware that doing so gave anyone an advantage. But if you made your request on September 30, it was discarded and no considered.

Yes I did misunderstand. I thought what you were saying was that if you didn't request in Sept you didn't get in. As another aside, it was very good, but not nearly at the level of the hype so you only missed an experience I'm sure you've had elsewhere

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Free? Didn't you pay to get into the park? And hasn't A&E been "FP+ Only" on certain days? And if you buy from a broker, you aren't stuck in the last row. They sell the better seats.

I am ALREADY there doing other things. It does not cost $100 to see A&E.

You want to compare apples to apples? How do you get to NYC for free? Do you live in the city?

And to compare apples to even more apples, aren't you paying the broker EXTRA to secure those last minute tickets? You aren't paying the regular price for the privilege.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That restaurant looks lovely. At first I thought it was in Orlando and got all excited. We aren't usually in the DC area but if we ever do....well thanks for that

So sorry for the tease!

Worth checking out if you make it that way.

 

[JimmyV]

It is interesting that you say it was easier for you. You did one simple action and essentially won a lottery by getting in.

But I wonder if my odds of getting in were any better. We don't have any compelling stories.

*now I am being skeptical*
It seems a subjective system that depends solely on the moods, opinions, and whims of a select group of "judges" would be infinitely more difficult since you lack any control in improving your odds. (Decreasing to less than a half percent in their final year of operation.)

Had they had an objective system--call, attempt to find an available reservation for the date/time you desire, you would have not experienced the same luck. And you would have had to decide if it was important to keep trying or just move on to the next option.

Your odds most likely were many times better for getting into BOG. But again, capacity rules the day.

Your experience with the letter writing was easier because they only required that of you and you succeeded. But for the other 99%, they failed.

It absolutely was an obtuse system. We are used to merit based systems where merit is determined by speed. First to the trough. Theirs was a merit based system where merit was determined by subjective factors. Hard to say which is better. For example, you could start calling or clicking at exactly the moment that tickets go on sale for a popular concert and not get a ticket. Even though you were right on time, you failed. So I think it is impossible to determine where the odds are more favorable--timing or subjective merit. One thing is for sure. The reservation system for getting in to El Bulli is probably as much a part of the restaurant achieving legendary status as was the food. So there is a certain P.T. Barnum aspect to all of this.

 

[hsmamato2]

I travel quite a bit domestically (esp. in the past few years) to a lot of places..... but planning this latest Disney trip has me over the edge,and not in a good way. I agree with OP it is TOO MUCH.
The level of intrusion in our lives to simply plan a Disney trip is unbelievable at this point...the amounts of info that we have to willingly give away just to be assured of a 'reserved' place in a line in 2 months.... The issues (many many reported) of misspelled names, i.d. mixups, computer glitches, etc etc etc along with little bands that track our every move,and every last bit of our entire families info 'linked' in them.... I personally have had nothing but problems from the get-go with my current trip. MDE is the worst thing ever, ME issues complicate things, attaching a non disney hotel stay to a trip is a hassle,linking family members is nothing but pain,different schedules of people coming/going makes it not even possible to navigate...etc etc.
But I plan to visit Universal for a couple of days. the amount of trouble I had planning that? NONE. Took 10 minutes to buy tickets.
I have a trip planned out west in the upcoming year for a large family group from multiple states- took about 2 hours at my computer to have the entire itinerary booked and ready to roll.everything.
My trip to Puerto Rico last year? awesome. planning? a few hours,booked, all set!
My point being it is FAR EASIER to travel just about anywhere else now.
And Guess what? to all of you who say "well, you may not get a great experience, but you can do some 2nd rate attractions if you don't go along with their program"....really??? I thought the ENTIRE reason for booking a disney trip was to experience the 1st Rate things..... but I guess not anymore, now we either have to figure all this out and struggle with it, or get a 2nd rate experience at 1st rate prices????

 

[kbelle8995]

I don't really care for the FP+ system. But that's a personal thing. It's not the way I want to tour the park. I do plan but how much I plan is my choice.

Also tried the park with FP+ and without and it didn't make much difference to me to be honest with you.