The 'Planning Backlash'

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Yeah, that kind of marked the end of an era for WDW. Not the tragedy itself, but the point in time. I think a lot of the attractions we enjoy today were built in the 90's, with a few more added over the course of the next decade. But certainly nothing to the level of ambition that built entire parks like EP (1982) and HS (1989) and AK (1998), all in the span of 17 years. It's been 17 years since then.

9/11 could have been the wake-up call that parks could go idle for long periods of time due to external events beyond their control, and it could very well have dictated a change in long term strategic planning.

Are you sitting down?

I'll wait.










I actually.....


AGREE.





I do think they had a lot on the line with AK being only 3 years new.
Pop was in an expansion mode. And then if was left an ugly unfinished shell. So unlike Disney.

But when your attendance plummets and there is no plan for that...not good.

Not sure where US was at the time as I don't recall when IOA was built.

I do remember getting the most awesome coupon in the mail in 2006 that allowed a bunch of is to to try it out. If was an either or deal--one was for something like a free admission or something while the other allowed us to get 5 people in for less than $60 a piece. Maybe less than $50. Whatever it was, it was jaw dropping and we couldn't pass if up.

So I'm sure US got hit as well...but different stages and then riding a different part of the wave. And than that Rowling person and her wizardry.

 

[prudence64]

Sorry. Duplicate post

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I can see how that would be a quite involved process.

And wow--a million???? If you can land a reservation <4 months ahead of time with only 1% getting seated, that is jaw dropping amazing.

We happen to be the type who change plans frequently. What we might feel like doing 6 months from now or 60 days from now will, without doubt ,not be what we want to do then. This I can almost guarantee. It was difficult enough trying to decide where we felt like dining 6 months in advance but which rides....which park...omg it drove me nuts. On all previous trips to Disney we would book dining and then inevitably have to change some of our adr's a couple of weeks in advance. This would happen without fail. It's a pain stalking ressies but we'd do it. Then they added fp+. So now we would have to both change adr's and ride reservations. So for the 2 weeks prior to our 2 week trip, along with the first few days we were there I spent a lot of time(hours and hours ) stalking both dinner ressies and now also rides ressies.
Dh and I live a hour from Toronto and we have a few popular restaurants there that we like . We were in TO a couple of nights ago. We decided a week in advance which one we wanted to dine at. Couldn't get in but did get our 2nd choice. I can live with having to decide on dinner with a reasonable amount of advance notice but rides....which theme park...really??
Then when one gets to the park we couldn't just stroll and get on rides...nope had to be a x at y time....over and over and over again. I felt like I was at work , I really did.

And on Elbulli since you asked.... This is a restaurant that we dined at once in Spain. It's closed now. They would get a million requests a yr for tables. Im pretty sure it would be considered a better dining experience than anything Disney has to offer. They could only seat about 10,000 a yr I think. You didn't have to book 6 months in advance to get a table(but they did have criteria) nor do you with any of the top chef restaurants in the US and Canada(although you can with some and you do need advance reservations at most). Many wont even take a reservation that far in advance though.

At on how much planning...well....since we only stayed on property the first few nights, I was on the website on 5 separate occasions at midnight waiting for fp availability 60 days out and on a couple of those occasions I had to sit there for 2 hours for the rides to be loaded at 1 and 2 am. I had to juggle and re juggle times and places and then when we'd make a change go back to our touringplan to do it all over again because even 1 ride change would affect our dinner and other rides, and other plans etc etc etc. And none of this includes all the stalking time, or the adr times. I didn't add up all the hours because quite frankly I'd be afraid too. I would cry if I thought of how much more productive I could have been with those hours.

 

[Laketravis]

Are you sitting down?

I'll wait.










I actually.....


AGREE.





I do think they had a lot on the line with AK being only 3 years new.
Pop was in an expansion mode. And then if was left an ugly unfinished shell. So unlike Disney.

But when your attendance plummets and there is no plan for that...not good.

Not sure where US was at the time as I don't recall when IOA was built.

I do remember getting the most awesome coupon in the mail in 2006 that allowed a bunch of is to to try it out. If was an either or deal--one was for something like a free admission or something while the other allowed us to get 5 people in for less than $60 a piece. Maybe less than $50. Whatever it was, it was jaw dropping and we couldn't pass if up.

So I'm sure US got hit as well...but different stages and then riding a different part of the wave. And than that Rowling person and her wizardry.

WHOOOA!!!!! LOL! Yeah, I think we do agree

And I do remember that with POP! Hadn't even thought of it till now, but yes. That did come to a screeching halt and sat dormant for a long time. In retrospect, I bet that wasn't the only project to suffer that way - it was just the most visible.

I was at MK the week that planes were allowed to fly again. It was an eerie experience, the parks were so empty. Almost a horror-film quality to it. Definitely a no-plan-required trip.

 

[HollieS]

Really we're talking about planning out 3 rides. 3!! (((we're talking about practice PRACTICE -Alan Iverson))) If we miss all our FP+ reserves no one in my party is going to have their trip ruined. I bet most wouldn't even notice. The stress and anxiety over rigid planning is self inflicted.

This hyperbole that if I don't have a FP for XYZ my vacation will be terrible is crazy. There still is RD, there still is riding rides during parades and shows, there still is staying until the park closes. I just can't wrapped my head around getting so worked up over planning 3! rides.

This new system is like going back to the everyone is standby system with 3 cut in line bonuses.

 

[chris123abc]

I don't think the issue is with planning per say, but over planning. I love pre-planning some things and some thing are better off winging it. Sure I'd like to plan t visit a specific park for shows, parades, or because of hours. What I don't like is having to plan a specific ride that will last only few minutes 45 days in advance. Or having to coordinate those rides with the dinner I had to plan 135 days before that(Gee I hope I'm still in the mood for seafood or Italian on that day). But it seems that I don't have a choice. If I don't plan everything, we'll be left with nothing.

 

[HollieS]

If I don't plan everything, we'll be left with nothing.

there will be places to eat, rides to ride, and shows to see. Maybe not your first choice and the best time, maybe you'll have to wait in line but there will be more than "nothing"

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I don't think the issue is with planning per say, but over planning. I love pre-planning some things and some thing are better off winging it. Sure I'd like to plan t visit a specific park for shows, parades, or because of hours. What I don't like is having to plan a specific ride that will last only few minutes 45 days in advance. Or having to coordinate those rides with the dinner I had to plan 135 days before that(Gee I hope I'm still in the mood for seafood or Italian on that day). But it seems that I don't have a choice. If I don't plan everything, we'll be left with nothing.

I truly don't understand when guests say and believe this.

What do you mean by "left with nothing"?

 

[Fratthouse]

I love the planning aspect of vacations - and I mean ALL vacations, not just disneyworld. I've planned trips to Europe, Hawaii, Alaska, the caribbean, and all over the US. And I LOVE planning.

But I planning a Disney trip is more frustrating and time consuming than any of those trips, for the following reasons:

1 - Impossible / nearly impossible to get reservations. Waking up at 5 am C.T. to find that BOG is not available any day of my trip 180 days away is ridiculous. Or trying (and failing) to book fastpasses for Anna & Elsa or 7DMT at midnight 60 days from my trip. Then the countless hours spent checking and rechecking the dining and fp sites to try and book it later. These experiences to not make me enjoy the planning process.

2 - Disney makes last minute changes that undermine hours of planning. In November, Disney changed the park hours 2 days before my trip. I had an 8 am res at Crystal Palace (that I'd booked at 5 am 178 days before). Then Disney changed the park hours to open at 8 at the last minute. This completely destroyed my plans for the day. HOURS of planning down the drain.

3- Disney's inconsistent process for releasing reservation / fp times. They don't release all the BOG reservation times at 180 days out. Instead, they arbitrarily release a second wave sometime later, which works out great for some people. But for the people who missed it at 5 am 180 days out, and didn't happen to be checking at the perfect moment, it's frustrating that they missed out.

I'm not necessarily saying this is all the fault of Disney management. Some of it is just the crazy amount of demand for limited options. There's nothing they can do about the number of people wanting to ride the mine train. However, there's a lot that could be improved to make the planning aspect more enjoyable.

 

[Luckybee]

I can see how that would be a quite involved process.

And wow--a million???? If you can land a reservation <4 months ahead of time with only 1% getting seated, that is jaw dropping amazing.

When we booked they wouldn't take reservations before 1 month out, although at one time I know they did take took them farther in advance. If I noted some skepticism in your tone about the numbers I found a site for you..

http://www.elbulli.info/

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

When we booked they wouldn't take reservations before 1 month out, although at one time I know they did take took them farther in advance. If I noted some skepticism in your tone about the numbers I found a site for you..

http://www.elbulli.info/

Actually no--not skeptical out at all.

Just trying to process quantitatively the impressive odds.
ETA: And in comparison, I can totally see now that would prove to make Disney's process painfully irritating.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Is it really that onerous, unusual or unreasonable to have to spend a few hours planning and reserving stuff to do for something like that?

No, it isn't. A few hours, total, of planning is what I did *before* FP+. Looking at an EasyWDW Crowd Calendar and a Touring Plans Crowd Prediction and deciding what park/day? Sure. Makes sense to try to be in the parks with the lowest crowds if possible.

Planning 1 ADR/day? OK. I can guarantee we'll be eating 3x/day, and we have favorite restaurants we like to visit at WDW, so picking 1 time/day to sit down and eat isn't bad.

What it comes down to, for me, is this:

the infringement into planning in-park time.

As I said, I know I'm going to stop for food in the parks 2x/day (lunch and dinner). It isn't too much to pick one of those times to sit down for an ADR.

What I don't like is all of the other in-park time that FP+ ended up requiring being planned out. We never planned in-park time beyond the 1 ADR/day on our past trips. We had a general idea of rides we wanted to hit, but no order of them or anything. We never did any of the touring plans or ridemax or anything like that. We'd get to the park whenever we got there - usually not RD - pick a direction and then just tour the park. For example, we'd head to Adventureland first and then work our way around to Tomorrowland. Little criss-crossing, picking up FPs as we came across them and as we decided they worked or didn't.

FP+ requires much more planning of the in-park time, and that is what we don't like. It isn't so much the "amount" of planning I don't like, as it is the *type* of planning.

 

[Laketravis]

That makes sense. So lacking any logistical problem that makes it impossible to open the windows earlier--I would agree that matching the booking windows makes sense.

While there is flexibility of moving times around--if would be much more convenient that of the ride edges out the ADR in importance that ride is booked first and dining planned around that. Since we cannot request times for rides like we do ADRs, it is luck of the draw.

Sorry, just noticed your response so I'm a bit late in responding as well.

I found that making the ADR's first and then working the FP's around it worked better for me. While true you can't request the times for rides like you can ADR's, they can be manipulated. Which takes more time, of course.

But if I made an ADR first for, say, Crystal Palace at 6pm, then I would try to make 3 FP's for SM, HM, and BTMR (working from one side of the park to the other) starting at 8pm, 9pm, and 10pm. Sometimes it would work after several iterations, sometimes not. If it didn't, then I would try to split them up before and after the ADR.

And as I'm explaining this, it is becoming obvious to me just how involved it can be to simply plan one ADR and three FP's for one day in one park while taking into consideration all of the other hard scheduled or non scheduled activities that may also be involved that day. And I typically do it for 16 days at a time. For our last visit Nov/Dec, it took several sessions over a couple of days just to get my preliminary template all filled out.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I was thinking about first-timers when I was booking FP+ and the way you need to go back and adjust the times after the first selections. I feel like even something fairly easy like that could be too much for a first-time visitor. Of course, they may not realize what they're missing since it's the first experience, so the satisfaction results might still be high I guess.

The friends of mine who went a week after we did in November were first timers. The wife (my friend) was so overwhelmed at everything when she first decided to go to WDW that she asked me to plan their vacation. She picked out/booked their resort, but for their FP+ and ADRs I gathered information/options and presented it to her as simply as possible so she could choose what they wanted, but then I still did the actual booking b/c Disney's site was so awful and slow for her that she totally lost patience with trying to book anything.

I ended up doing some FP+ re-planning while they were actually in the parks as they did change their plans after they realized their DD wasn't riding much. She came back saying they had a great trip, overall, even though their DD ended up being afraid to do most rides, and that a large part of why it went so well was the planning I'd done for them.

 

[Laketravis]

Is it really that onerous, unusual or unreasonable to have to spend a few hours planning and reserving stuff to do for something like that?

I think it is. Maybe not so much for ADR's because that tends to be an event that can last an hour or two or even most of the evening depending on the venue, so I don't mind spending some time months in advance planning which type of food we want each day and where and then seeing if it's available. If it isn't, then a second or third choice is usually involved but then there are always those once a day or more look-backs to see if our primary choice has become available. And that can end up consuming a lot of time over the course of days, weeks, or even months.

Compound that with the added complication of now having to coordinate ADR times with FP times. You can say that it doesn't take but a few minutes to open MDE and schedule three FP's for a park, but that's only the mechanical aspect of the endeavor.

That's why I'm not so sure it's "worth" it for FP's - reservations for activities of only a few minutes in duration as opposed to ADR's for activities of hours in duration. It's the scheduling of FP's that I am finding to be an inordinate amount of effort in return for questionable gain (but let's not start that argument up again) because it takes just as much time if not more to schedule three FP's for the day for the desired attractions in the desired park in the desired order to minimize transit time and at the desired times so as to not conflict with the already set ADR's. Thank goodness we only do one sit-down ADR a day, I can't imagine the logistics involved when anyone might also be having to reserve breakfast, lunch, dinner, (aka Deluxe Dining) AND three FP's each day for multiple days.

Yeah, it can get pretty involved.

 

[Angel Ariel]

We took a family trip to NYC a few years ago and to get into the best most popular Broadway shows and some restaurants would have required weeks if not months of advance reservations. Popular sites that are busy and attract crowds will always require some degree of advanced planning IF you are looking to experience all that you can in what is often limited days on a trip. On the other hand going to spend a week on the beach at the Outer Banks takes little planning as much as simply deciding one day to head there (again as long as it is not the 4th of July!). Visitors can certainly take and enjoy a trip to WDW with little or no planning, including no FP+, as with many other locations, but if during peak crowds their experience, and perhaps enjoyment is going to be impacted and certainly less in many aspects.

All vacations are different, and very dependent on each family's individual circumstance.

We vacation at OBX every summer with my family. There's anywhere between 3 and 6 families on the trip. This particular year we have 5 families - 14 people. Because of the size house we need, and the general vicinity we want to be in, we had to book our house 2 months ago. And even then, we ended up having to book a Sunday-Sunday rental instead of a Saturday-Saturday (which we prefer) because there was no availability Saturday-Saturday.

My point being that where some can vacation with little planning at all, others may require (not want, but require) more planning because of their individual circumstances.

 

[dmband]

I agree it is crazy to have to plan this much since fp+ started
I have spent more time planning this upcoming trip then I have in all my Disney life. Partly because it's a large group and a fairly busy time of yr.
I hate fp+ even without that though. One of my biggest reasons is best understood if using dinner reservations as an example.
I don't know what I want to eat this weekend let alone 6 months in advance.
I don't know what time my kids will be hungry this weekend let alone 6 months in advance.
I don't know if I want to eat at home, fast food, or sit down this weekend let alone 6 months in advance.
Fp+ is the same but 2 months instead of six and it has other things to consider. For example water park planing and weather or bus issues.
I have seen more people say bus waits are long since fp+ then before. My personal opinion is not so much that buses are slow but...
People are locked into a park and may have just missed that bus
Vs
In the past people were more likely to just jump on a bus that came. Ex if they have hoppers.

So I have read a lot of opinions and can see pros and cons depending on you but for us fp+ sucks as a whole and is to much planning

Edit I'll throw out there another reason I hate fp+
Height requirements
It's hard to plan 7dmt for example when two of the kids are currently .5" to small.
Will they grow? Can shoes get them over the edge?
Hard to say for my sister in law if at 2 months out she should waste a fp+ For the day on if they can go or not

 

[SeanTomorrow]

I've been thinking about FP+ as "insurance", and it makes me feel much better. There's no penalty for skipping, but FP+ guarantees at least 3 good attractions a day. If the park gets crowded and frustrating, hey, at least we'll have 3 short lines (and heck, we'll be in Disney World!). Pretty awesome for a click of a button.

Sure, I'm currently optimizing my minute-by-minute plans like many of you do too. And I'm sorry to hear so many of you feel hampered by FP+. I get the pressure! But I think a lot is self imposed.

In the end, if more families can walk into the park knowing they've got 3 great attractions already lined up, maybe we'll see more smiles...

 

[Bullseye]

If I don't plan everything, we'll be left with nothing.

Just kidding chris

We've all been planning resorts and adrs way in advance for years so having to take an additional hour out at the 60 day mark to pick FP+ doesn't seem like a big deal to me .
IMO knowing where I have to be at certain times before I even enter the park lets me be more spontaneous the rest of the time I'm there.

 

[DisneyKidds]

One of my biggest reasons is best understood if using dinner reservations as an example. I don't know what I want to eat this weekend let alone 6 months in advance. I don't know what time my kids will be hungry this weekend let alone 6 months in advance. I don't know if I want to eat at home, fast food, or sit down this weekend let alone 6 months in advance. Fp+ is the same but 2 months instead of six.......

I can see why you and others have valid reason to have issues with FP+, and you make some good points. I'm not picking on you here either, but your comment above triggered a thought I've always had regarding people's dislike of FP+.

Putting the flexibility issue aside, which is a valid gripe, I think we can probably mostly agree, even without FP+ in the picture, between Extra Magic Hours, park opening and closing times, entertainment schedules, ADRs for meals (which many people make long before the FP+ 60 day mark), crowd calendars, recommended park days on the various blogs.......well, most people have a very firm idea of what park they are going to be in on what day, no? And they likely know this before the 60 day FP+ window opens.

Your analogy to meals is interesting, as there are a myriad of choices. But I'm not sure the analogy really applies to FP+.

So you know what park you are going to be in.....is it really that much of a mystery to figure out what FP+ to grab? Unlike dinner, there are not a myriad of choices. You grab something you know you are going to ride one way or another, and now you've got that guarantee in your back pocket. It doesn't mean you can't, and won't, ride other things. I thinks it's really as simple as that.