The nutters in CA who chained up 13 kids...

[luvflorida]

Is anyone else surprised that the parents gave the kids journals to write in? It sounds like the kids were denied access to television, toys, etc., but they were allowed to write in journals. Didn't the parents ever stop and think what might happen if anyone outside of their family saw those journals?

Of course, normal, sane people would think that way, and obviously, the parents are anything but normal. Still, it doesn't make sense. And really, that's the problem with this whole story. We are all rationally trying to process what went on in that house and trying to think through and understand all of it. But, the parents are anything but rational and sane. I also believe the grandparents, and any other relatives that are now trying to justify how they just didn't see anything wrong or strange or odd about the parents' behavior, are also anything but rational and sane.

 

[MamaBelle4]

I'm actually worried about the level of truth in the journals. Did the parents read them? We're they punished for painting their parents in a negative light? Were they too afraid to paint their parents in a negative light for fear of retribution?

 

[Imzadi]

Is anyone else surprised that the parents gave the kids journals to write in? It sounds like the kids were denied access to television, toys, etc., but they were allowed to write in journals. Didn't the parents ever stop and think what might happen if anyone outside of their family saw those journals?

I was surprised they were taught to read & write. Probably only the older kids were taught and then they had to later teach the younger ones. It might have been just to keep up appearances with other people, like when they were at Disney. Or that wherever they were living before, their "homeschooling" was more regulated and they actually HAD to teach the kids something. It just doesn't seem like a positive activity that the parents would have spent any real time doing to teach the kids.

The deputy(?) who did the police conference mentioned how, instead, the parents used to starve the kids each day with only one meal, and would purposely buy blueberry, apple & peach pies, leave them on the counter and BOTH parents would taunt & torture the kids with them. YES, the wife was complicit. Not the victim some people here want to make her out to be. Do they seem like they would then turn around and teach them to read & write and give them notebooks to write journals? Unless teaching them was also used as a form of torture. Get an answer wrong and they'd be beaten. THAT seems more like the parents.

What's interesting is that writing was also the saving grace in Elizabeth Smart's abduction. Her captor wouldn't allow her to even say her own name and he tried to control her thoughts. Yet, he too gave her paper. So she'd write in French, I think, over and over her real thoughts and that she is Elizabeth Smart. It kept her sane.

Now these kids' journals were a place they could document their real thoughts and what happened to them. And they may be what is used to nail these monsters.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I would guess that the children, at least the older ones, might have been taught to write and otherwise educated earlier on. This most likely looked truly similar to the Duggar family style of control and extreme religious indoctrination at the start and then became ever more severe and sinister as time went on. As the parents crossed more lines, and got some sort of high from it, and got away with it, they'd feel more empowered to push even further down this road . . .

 

[Imzadi]

I would guess that the children, at least the older ones, might have been taught to write and otherwise educated earlier on. This most likely looked truly similar to the Duggar family style of control and extreme religious indoctrination at the start and then became ever more severe and sinister as time went on. As the parents crossed more lines, and got some sort of high from it, and got away with it, they'd feel more empowered to push even further down this road . . .

Ah, yes, the kids would need to be able to read the bible and recite biblical passages in their extremist ways. . .

 

[pooh'smate]

They (or at least one of them) was enrolled in a local college according to the sheriff in the press conference today. He said that one of the boys went to college and the mother dropped him off and picked him up.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I think one of the starkest examples of the level of control/brainwashing/fear they instilled in those kids is that two girls initially escaped but one was so frightened she went back before the call was made to police. Forget saying something to a random stranger at Disney with Mom and Dad right there, these kids were so terrified and controlled that once out and away one could not bring herself to stay out long enough to ask for help.

 

[Imzadi]

They (or at least one of them) was enrolled in a local college according to the sheriff in the press conference today. He said that one of the boys went to college and the mother dropped him off and picked him up.

 

[Imzadi]

I think one of the starkest examples of the level of control/brainwashing/fear they instilled in those kids is that two girls initially escaped but one was so frightened she went back before the call was made to police. Forget saying something to a random stranger at Disney with Mom and Dad right there, these kids were so terrified and controlled that once out and away one could not bring herself to stay out long enough to ask for help.

Yes, I'm wondering if the (currently only) lewd charges are for what he possibly did to the 17 yr old. Making it the reason why she finally planned this escape for 2 years. Or that it was to the one that was going to go with her. But, in the end, she feared more what he may do to her if they failed in their attempt. So she went back.

 

[indimom]

I keep trying to put all these stories in order to gain a perspective. I read quite a few articles.
Like NHDisneyLover said, I get the idea that the abuse worsened dramatically over time, and probably really got bad when they got into so much financial trouble and moved to California.
It sounds like the older children had a more typical upbringing, playing in the yard, having neighborhood friends. Of course, once a friend's mom showed too much interest, they were banned from playing with her and restricted to the back yard. But still able to go out.
Obviously, there was some serious nasty hoarder tendencies from an early point. The girl who befriended them didn't see much of the house, but saw enough to indicate that went WAYYY back.

As far as what the grandparents knew... like others here, I was wondering how they could miss the state of the house when they spent five days with the family. But, in one article, there was a single comment about the parents "living apart" from the children for a period of time, like in a separate home? and "bringing them food." Could they have moved the family into this other location during the visit from the grandparents? Maybe it wasn't as bad as the main home where the children primarily lived?

Then when they moved to California, I get the impression that their financial situation wasn't as good as prior. Instead of a good-sized property on many acres, they were in a sub-division. I think they shifted gears from dayshift to night to prevent the "too close" neighbors from seeing too much of their family situation. And trying to control that many people in an average sized home, keeping them inside the home almost around the clock, probably added to the stress of the situation, and things became much, much worse.

The last thing I noticed was the timing at the end. The big age gap between the last two childreh. The youngest is two... They started to plan their escape two years ago... And after all those years of abuse and control and fear, one of them went through with it... I can't help but wonder if the 2yo is the child of one of the sisters and that event is what set the wheels in motion for the escape attempt. Especially, with the report of "a" lewd act. My guess is there was more than that (cause that's not the kind of thing a sicko with control over a number of young women would pull only once), but if several of the kids told the same story in regard to the 2yo's parentage, that's "a" conclusive charge the police could throw at the father now while they continue to gather more evidence.


I just hope these kids and young adults can somehow go on with their lives after this and have some happiness. They deserve it.

 

[mickeymom629]

I just found this thread and read most....I haven't sleep well the past few nights thinking about these poor children... I just turned off my radio because they warned of describing the torture of the children. I get so disturbed hearing these true horror stories about children. I get heartbroken when I hear of cruelty to animals, so stories about children really pains my heart. I want to hear more out of curiosity and, yet, I don't. I hope these children get wonderful help by loving people.

 

[kidshop]

Michelle paired the older children up to take care of the younger ones. They called each other buddies. Do you honestly think Michelle knew what was going on while she was 8-9 months pregnant, and had any idea what was going on the couple of months after each child was born? She relied on her older children to feed, bathe and take care of the younger ones.

Duggar kids aren't allowed to move out of the house until they are married. The 27 year old daughter shares a room with many little girls. She can't get a job or go to college. I don't think she can leave the house alone without a chaperone.

There are degrees of this type of control, keeping kids sheltered and uneducated, but the duggars are on the scale.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I keep trying to put all these stories in order to gain a perspective. I read quite a few articles.
Like NHDisneyLover said, I get the idea that the abuse worsened dramatically over time, and probably really got bad when they got into so much financial trouble and moved to California.
It sounds like the older children had a more typical upbringing, playing in the yard, having neighborhood friends. Of course, once a friend's mom showed too much interest, they were banned from playing with her and restricted to the back yard. But still able to go out.
Obviously, there was some serious nasty hoarder tendencies from an early point. The girl who befriended them didn't see much of the house, but saw enough to indicate that went WAYYY back.

As far as what the grandparents knew... like others here, I was wondering how they could miss the state of the house when they spent five days with the family. But, in one article, there was a single comment about the parents "living apart" from the children for a period of time, like in a separate home? and "bringing them food." Could they have moved the family into this other location during the visit from the grandparents? Maybe it wasn't as bad as the main home where the children primarily lived?

Then when they moved to California, I get the impression that their financial situation wasn't as good as prior. Instead of a good-sized property on many acres, they were in a sub-division. I think they shifted gears from dayshift to night to prevent the "too close" neighbors from seeing too much of their family situation. And trying to control that many people in an average sized home, keeping them inside the home almost around the clock, probably added to the stress of the situation, and things became much, much worse.

The last thing I noticed was the timing at the end. The big age gap between the last two childreh. The youngest is two... They started to plan their escape two years ago... And after all those years of abuse and control and fear, one of them went through with it... I can't help but wonder if the 2yo is the child of one of the sisters and that event is what set the wheels in motion for the escape attempt. Especially, with the report of "a" lewd act. My guess is there was more than that (cause that's not the kind of thing a sicko with control over a number of young women would pull only once), but if several of the kids told the same story in regard to the 2yo's parentage, that's "a" conclusive charge the police could throw at the father now while they continue to gather more evidence.


I just hope these kids and young adults can somehow go on with their lives after this and have some happiness. They deserve it.

I also noticed the timing with the planning being near when the baby was likely born.
Given the photos of mom and baby in which, as a poster upthread said, the mom seemed to see the baby as some sort of prize, I have wondered if Mom was unsuccessful in getting pregnant again and after a point decreed that one of the girls must provide her with a child and Dad happily went along with that idea. I don't know, something about the look Mom has in the photos with the baby seems kind of, triumphant? smnug? maybe.

 

[morgan98]

Do we know for sure if that dad was still actively employed? At the press conference (listened to it again last night) I believe authorities were saying that the kids basically slept during the day and were up all night. (going to bed at 4am or 5am). If the father was employed, did he leave the house during the day. Did they keep the kids on a night schedule light that so they were tired/sleeping during the day so there was less chance of things happening when he was at work? The mom absolutely had a hand in this and knew what she was doing.

The more I think about this, the more distraught I get. As we find out more information, it seems that the list of questions just keeps growing.

 

[AppleDumpling]

Unless teaching them was also used as a form of torture. Get an answer wrong and they'd be beaten. THAT seems more like the parents.

Could very well be. If they washed their hands the “wrong” way, they were punished for “playing with water”!

The last thing I noticed was the timing at the end. The big age gap between the last two childreh. The youngest is two... They started to plan their escape two years ago... And after all those years of abuse and control and fear, one of them went through with it... I can't help but wonder if the 2yo is the child of one of the sisters and that event is what set the wheels in motion for the escape attempt. Especially, with the report of "a" lewd act.

I suspect this too, and the more I think about it, it seems like the most logical explanation. The charge against only the dad is a lewd act on a child under 14. The girl who escaped is 17. Suppose she was 13 when she was raped and impregnated by her father.

If you do the math, considering a 13-year-old is actually anywhere between 13 and 14 (she could’ve been 13 yrs and 10 mos, for example) and that a 2-year-old is anywhere between 2 and 3 years, and you add in a 9 month pregnancy, it is possible that the 17 yo is the mother of the youngest child. The only question is whether a 13 yo in poor health with stunted development is capable of conceiving and carrying a child. Sadly, she was, in all probability. IMO, the timing is just too coincidental.

 

[morgan98]

Could very well be. If they washed their hands the “wrong” way, they were punished for “playing with water”!




I suspect this too, and the more I think about it, it seems like the most logical explanation. The charge against only the dad is a lewd act on a child under 14. The girl who escaped is 17. Suppose she was 13 when she was raped and impregnated by her father.

If you do the math, considering a 13-year-old is actually anywhere between 13 and 14 (she could’ve been 13 yrs and 10 mos, for example) and that a 2-year-old is anywhere between 2 and 3 years, and you add in a 9 month pregnancy, it is possible that the 17 yo is the mother of the youngest child. The only question is whether a 13 yo in poor health with stunted development is capable of conceiving and carrying a child. Sadly, she was, in all probability. IMO, the timing is just too coincidental.

I would not put anything past these people. It is quite possible that the came up with the plan to have the daughter have the baby over time. Perhaps they started feeding her better, fed her well during the pregnancy, etc. After all, if they wanted the baby that badly this would seem something they would do. Again, it all just makes me sick.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I would not consider this a good source (I normally despise the Daily Mail), but up Daily Mail was a bit ahead of the curve on some other details that are now widely reported in this particular case, so it could be accurate.

Two things that are new in this long article:

there were two healthy, well cared for dogs in the home

it appears the abuse began around 2010. So the oldest would have been 20-21? I wonder if an older one wanting to leave home is what caused a change from very controlling family to all out horribly abusive?
Thoiugh I would guess they were abused even before that, but the tying up or other things the kids are able to identify as abusive (not knowing entirely what normal is) started aroiund 2010.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5287143/Dogs-House-Horrors-children-starved.html

 

[NHdisneylover]

I would not put anything past these people. It is quite possible that the came up with the plan to have the daughter have the baby over time. Perhaps they started feeding her better, fed her well during the pregnancy, etc. After all, if they wanted the baby that badly this would seem something they would do. Again, it all just makes me sick.

and if abuse started (or intensified) in 2010---would that be about when the last of the kids, other than the 2 year old, was born? Did the parents learn they couldn't bear more children for some reason and did that play in to it all somehow?



I wish I could get this out of my mind and quit looking into it---it's so horrible. But for some reason I feel compelled to want to know what went on and WHY those kids were subjected to this.

 

[mnrose]

We may never know the "why" other than that I believe there are simply evil people in this world. :-(

 

[RedAngie]

Do we know for sure if that dad was still actively employed? At the press conference (listened to it again last night) I believe authorities were saying that the kids basically slept during the day and were up all night. (going to bed at 4am or 5am). If the father was employed, did he leave the house during the day. Did they keep the kids on a night schedule light that so they were tired/sleeping during the day so there was less chance of things happening when he was at work? The mom absolutely had a hand in this and knew what she was doing.

The more I think about this, the more distraught I get. As we find out more information, it seems that the list of questions just keeps growing.

Nothing I've read seemed to indicate that the father was recently employed. That 140k position appeared to have been before the family moved into the current house.