The Muppets aren't the only ones being Frozen out.

[lockedoutlogic]

Are you done with your temper tantrum? Frozen is a huge success whether you like it or not. It is here to stay and at the time of this post it is a huge cultural phenomenon. You can stay in denial all you want, but it's a great film with a huge following. As for the Muppets (Cali version) it has been showing to nearly empty theaters since it opened in 2001, so all of you crying fowl obviously have never been to DLR before. (Also I joined this site because this thread was driving me nuts.)

Thanks for your lecture...

But you massively overshot and don't have any backstory here.

I'm not denying the success of frozen. But I don't see "cultural impact" and can't give credit for that until its washed over time.

It had nothing to do with muppets. That does need something. But domestically...TWDC has taken a different tact with how they allocate money - particularly in wdw. They are not doing it the "Disney way" at their flagship...ie everything is geared towards max revenue with minimal investment.

Good strategy?
I'm willing to concede that from a business standpoint. But not Disney and its parks. They stayed above the curve by doing things TO DO THEM without strict bottomline concerns even up until close to eisners departure. But they sure seem to have lost their vision in the longterm for short/medium term profits. Did you see
The dividend went up? Great...means cheap suits are the rulers of the kingdom. (Without going into the long history of why dividends don't belong)

Frozen overlays have and should be tied to that...it's not "imagineering" by Disney's own standards. It's much closer to an event at toys r us at the mall. Knee jerk.

To me...frozen is alot like the year of the lion king - a huge deal that spawned Disney investment and even partially a whole new park.

But it's not that Impactful that it should have. It was a bit rammed down everyone's throats and still has been.

I personally...think it's not even just about frozen. I think that tangled set frozen up. So you are more correct in saying that the "modern princess" genre is more a phenomenon than this one movie.

I do see the thaw in my neck of the woods...
And at least at wdw...I don't want the reality to be aging, force feed, Elsa themed "meh" in five years all over the place.
Because I can't trust that they won't leave it there for another 20 anymore.

See: honey I shrunk the audience

Anyway...it's not just about frozen. But it is partly about philosophy and park operation

 

[clsteve]

And did I mention the designer Frozen wedding dresses!!!? Tattoos!

Thanks so much for that!

Now I have to worry about one of my sons marrying a Frozen Princess in a Frozen wedding dress sporting an Olaf tattoo and walking down the aisle to "Let it Go..."

The end is truly near - time to get the bunker fully stocked, I guess...

 

[citivas]

It seems like they are gutting Hollywood Studios without and specific timeline to back-fill it with the new Star Wars or whatever they plan to do. The Muppetvision is just the latest hit. When the Frozen things ends, they have a vague plan to replace it. But why not commit to replacing it day-and-date with the end of the Frozen show?

As it stands, if you go to WDW next Summer when you head to Hollywood Studios you will find at least 4 attractions closed -- Backlot Tour, Jack Sparrow, American Idol and probably the Muppetvision Theater. As it was, this park already wasn't nearly the full experience that MK or EPCOT were, and therefore already suffered with super long lines as a result. It seems like there will be even less to do and just as many people now having to double down on the lines for the 3-4 meaningful attractions left. And with the new Fastpass+ system it will be even harder to experience those more than once a way without 90 minute waits in the standby line. I suspect my family may just swoop in a few times for pre-scheduled Fastpass+ rides and then head to other parks. I pity the person who buys a pass just for that park for the day.

Why stop all these current attractions before they are ready to break ground on what will replace them? How many years will HS be half a park for?

 

[rteetz]

It seems like they are gutting Hollywood Studios without and specific timeline to back-fill it with the new Star Wars or whatever they plan to do. The Muppetvision is just the latest hit. When the Frozen things ends, they have a vague plan to replace it. But why not commit to replacing it day-and-date with the end of the Frozen show? As it stands, if you go to WDW next Summer when you head to Hollywood Studios you will find at least 4 attractions closed -- Backlot Tour, Jack Sparrow, American Idol and probably the Muppetvision Theater. As it was, this park already wasn't nearly the full experience that MK or EPCOT were, and therefore already suffered with super long lines as a result. It seems like there will be even less to do and just as many people now having to double down on the lines for the 3-4 meaningful attractions left. And with the new Fastpass+ system it will be even harder to experience those more than once a way without 90 minute waits in the standby line. I suspect my family may just swoop in a few times for pre-scheduled Fastpass+ rides and then head to other parks. I pity the person who buys a pass just for that park for the day. Why stop all these current attractions before they are ready to break ground on what will replace them? How many years will HS be half a park for?

Muppetvision is not closing at DHS yet and even rumors don't specifically say it is yet. But I will say if you go to DHS next summer there probably will be more things closed, but street of America area so LMA and Indy are the biggest rumored attractions to close. Disney does what Disney wants to do. DHS will be the place for shoehorned events like frozen summer fun until they do what they are going to do. They have to get people in there some how.

 

[An1mag1qu3]

Thanks for your lecture...

But you massively overshot and don't have any backstory here.

I'm not denying the success of frozen. But I don't see "cultural impact" and can't give credit for that until its washed over time.

It had nothing to do with muppets. That does need something. But domestically...TWDC has taken a different tact with how they allocate money - particularly in wdw. They are not doing it the "Disney way" at their flagship...ie everything is geared towards max revenue with minimal investment.

Good strategy?
I'm willing to concede that from a business standpoint. But not Disney and its parks. They stayed above the curve by doing things TO DO THEM without strict bottomline concerns even up until close to eisners departure. But they sure seem to have lost their vision in the longterm for short/medium term profits. Did you see
The dividend went up? Great...means cheap suits are the rulers of the kingdom. (Without going into the long history of why dividends don't belong)

Frozen overlays have and should be tied to that...it's not "imagineering" by Disney's own standards. It's much closer to an event at toys r us at the mall. Knee jerk.

To me...frozen is alot like the year of the lion king - a huge deal that spawned Disney investment and even partially a whole new park.

But it's not that Impactful that it should have. It was a bit rammed down everyone's throats and still has been.

I personally...think it's not even just about frozen. I think that tangled set frozen up. So you are more correct in saying that the "modern princess" genre is more a phenomenon than this one movie.

I do see the thaw in my neck of the woods...
And at least at wdw...I don't want the reality to be aging, force feed, Elsa themed "meh" in five years all over the place.
Because I can't trust that they won't leave it there for another 20 anymore.

See: honey I shrunk the audience

Anyway...it's not just about frozen. But it is partly about philosophy and park operation

Have you been to the parks since the film was released? Almost every child I encountered in the parks this year has been obsessed with Frozen. The meet and greets command 4-5 hours waits at every resort, and kids are singing the songs and dressing up like the characters everywhere. I even heard kids complaining that there wasn't any Frozen in World of Color. Kids (meaning not you) and adults alike are crazy about this movie. The Merchandise is flying off the shelves, cast members have told me they can't keep Elsa dolls in stock for longer than a day. The movie is super popular, all Disney is doing is trying to keep up with the demand. The additions they have made thus far are temporary so I don't see what the big deal is. As far as Maelstrom goes I'm excited to see what they do with it because that ride hasn't been fixed up or updated since it opened in 1988.

Anyways my point is you need to remember that you are not the only demographic in the parks, and the kids want Frozen.

 

[Disney Junkies]

I would just like to throw in this thought:

Frozen is this generations Davey Crockett, Star Wars, Toy Story etc....

in the 50's every kid had a coon skin cap.
in the 70's a light saber
in the 90's a Buzz Lightyear (Pixar really did change everything) or what ever.

The point is, that certain something resonated with those kids and now for the adults is considered a classic. My parents didn't get Star Wars. You don't have to get Frozen. The little kids will grow up and will bring their kids one day. They will say......aahh, Frozen, do you remember when....... that's the point and Disney gets that, they are creating memory making opportunities for generations to come!

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Which makes me wonder why?

But I think...with all due respect...that this is just you're reality. Do no wrong.

You're like my mirrored doppelgänger.

All they do is shower the masses with magic on one side...
And on the other they are hell bent on sucking us dry.

I guess we'll both find out on the day of judgement.

(Note...lifetime Star Wars fan until they ruined it. But I was and am excited for the new Disney material. I do trust they'll do a good job.

But I won't be here in February of 2016 peddling it as a great movie because walmart is full and it makes 750 million on pace for 1.2 billion amped up On $22 IMAX tickets...

...IF its crap. I'll tell you it's good if its good and will lambast them if they cop out and produced a bad cgi film to sell toys.

Because that...my friend...is fair and warranted to a company that is jacking prices all
Over the place and reaping profits from consumers ages 2-90.

That is fair

And that unarguably IS a cultural phenomenon)

Haha! I probably am your doppleganger. We are probably each at the far ends of the spectrum. While I love Disney for Disney. I am also fascinated by how the business works and by the affect of their media on culture.

And my view of Frozen isn't really about my love for Disney, although related, because Disney has had nothing to do with it. Other then making a good movie, the viral and cultural response is beyond anyone's control. It is undeniable and amazing function of the modern connected society.

There have been other Disney movies that made a cultural impact like Toy Story and Lion King, but I am convinced that the cultural impact of any of these pales in comparison to Frozen. Why? I think it is a combination of factors. 1st, I think Frozen is a unique movie that has elicited a strong visceral response in a large cross section of society. 2nd, the connected society is far more global then in the past, and growing. 3rd, the connected nature of society with Facebook, Youtube, twitter, etc. has been the "Typhoid Mary" that has helped to both spread and strengthen the Frozen pathogen. In major news outlets on and offline there are still stories on Frozen vids and other Frozen news. What is happening is without precedent and fascinating. How much of this is due to the unique quality of Frozen and how much is due to the new connected online society is open to debate. The unprecedented cultural response itself is beyond question.

 

[AquaDame]

Haha! I probably am your doppleganger. We are probably each at the far ends of the spectrum. While I love Disney for Disney. I am also fascinated by how the business works and by the affect of their media on culture.

And my view of Frozen isn't really about my love for Disney, although related, because Disney has had nothing to do with it. Other then making a good movie, the viral and cultural response is beyond anyone's control. It is undeniable and amazing function of the modern connected society.

There have been other Disney movies that made a cultural impact like Toy Story and Lion King, but I am convinced that the cultural impact of any of these pales in comparison to Frozen. Why? I think it is a combination of factors. 1st, I think Frozen is a unique movie that has elicited a strong visceral response in a large cross section of society. 2nd, the connected society is far more global then in the past, and growing. 3rd, the connected nature of society with Facebook, Youtube, twitter, etc. has been the "Typhoid Mary" that has helped to both spread and strengthen the Frozen pathogen. In major news outlets on and offline there are still stories on Frozen vids and other Frozen news. What is happening is without precedent and fascinating. How much of this is due to the unique quality of Frozen and how much is due to the new connected online society is open to debate. The unprecedented cultural response itself is beyond question.

We've BEEN this connected for years now IMO, and I can't argue to what degree this is unprecedented because I just don't have stats like that at my disposal but it IS up for debate. I think it helps that Frozen isn't kiddie Disney fodder. The "adult" jokes aren't just tossed in for our benefit to get us through the movie, the themes themselves are universally sound. Visually its gorgeous and different enough, there are no talking animals and the talking snowman at least makes sense and himself served a direct purpose with the leading girls. They nailed the music and sibling relationship/familial love aspects which again, are universally sound. Doing a princess story this way was brilliant and feels much more innocent & uplifting than the Merida/Elinor story which focuses far more on conflict than an ideal "unbreakable" bond.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Have you been to the parks since the film was released? Almost every child I encountered in the parks this year has been obsessed with Frozen. The meet and greets command 4-5 hours waits at every resort, and kids are singing the songs and dressing up like the characters everywhere. I even heard kids complaining that there wasn't any Frozen in World of Color. Kids (meaning not you) and adults alike are crazy about this movie. The Merchandise is flying off the shelves, cast members have told me they can't keep Elsa dolls in stock for longer than a day. The movie is super popular, all Disney is doing is trying to keep up with the demand. The additions they have made thus far are temporary so I don't see what the big deal is. As far as Maelstrom goes I'm excited to see what they do with it because that ride hasn't been fixed up or updated since it opened in 1988.

Anyways my point is you need to remember that you are not the only demographic in the parks, and the kids want Frozen.

I've been to wdw four times since its release...was actually there on its release...
And cruiseline since (wow...this new job with 5 weeks of vacations is working out, ain't it?)

It's a big movie...
But we're jumping the gun on the longterm...that's the point.

EPCOT is a landmine discussion in regards to this...we probably don't want to go there again.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Haha! I probably am your doppleganger. We are probably each at the far ends of the spectrum. While I love Disney for Disney. I am also fascinated by how the business works and by the affect of their media on culture.

And my view of Frozen isn't really about my love for Disney, although related, because Disney has had nothing to do with it. Other then making a good movie, the viral and cultural response is beyond anyone's control. It is undeniable and amazing function of the modern connected society.

There have been other Disney movies that made a cultural impact like Toy Story and Lion King, but I am convinced that the cultural impact of any of these pales in comparison to Frozen. Why? I think it is a combination of factors. 1st, I think Frozen is a unique movie that has elicited a strong visceral response in a large cross section of society. 2nd, the connected society is far more global then in the past, and growing. 3rd, the connected nature of society with Facebook, Youtube, twitter, etc. has been the "Typhoid Mary" that has helped to both spread and strengthen the Frozen pathogen. In major news outlets on and offline there are still stories on Frozen vids and other Frozen news. What is happening is without precedent and fascinating. How much of this is due to the unique quality of Frozen and how much is due to the new connected online society is open to debate. The unprecedented cultural response itself is beyond question.

See...I think it's the exact opposite.

I don't see the frozen story to translate well over time.
It's a good story...but I don't see what really sets it apart. It has good characters all around...that's it's strength. The visuals are good but not spectacular compared to other Disney movies.

We're gonna have to wait and see.

I think frozen hit a soft spot in the entertainment calendar.
It hasn't been challenged by any other property..the releases have been weak all year..

Which ironically fits the mold of titanic...and avatar ironically.

There hasn't been much competition for that market or the overall market. Which is rare.

 

[wallrock]

Have you been to the parks since the film was released? Almost every child I encountered in the parks this year has been obsessed with Frozen. The meet and greets command 4-5 hours waits at every resort, and kids are singing the songs and dressing up like the characters everywhere. I even heard kids complaining that there wasn't any Frozen in World of Color. Kids (meaning not you) and adults alike are crazy about this movie. The Merchandise is flying off the shelves, cast members have told me they can't keep Elsa dolls in stock for longer than a day. The movie is super popular, all Disney is doing is trying to keep up with the demand. The additions they have made thus far are temporary so I don't see what the big deal is. As far as Maelstrom goes I'm excited to see what they do with it because that ride hasn't been fixed up or updated since it opened in 1988.

Anyways my point is you need to remember that you are not the only demographic in the parks, and the kids want Frozen.

In the past you could have cut and pasted this comment and replaced Frozen with Tickle Me Elmo, Cabbage Patch Kids, My Little Pony, Buzz Lightyear (who made a trip into space by the way) and others.

The point that I and others are making is that while some of the above examples aren't based on movies, they were highly sought after by kids. Before long another item and/or film came along and replaced them. Each time people commented on the spectacular success of said item and before long most were forgotten. Buzz, by the way, is still selling nearly 20 years after his first appearance. If Anna and Elsa do the same (enough to make them stand out above the other princesses) I'll give them their due.

I won't take away from Frozen's success. The numbers are there to prove it. However dollars don't translate into culture (unless you're a Ferengi). Does the item in question become part of the lexicon of society? Does it stay around when other fads come into existence? "Let It Go" may be the tune that many folks are humming now, but if they are still humming it ten or even five years from now that will define (at least partially) Frozen's status in culture.

 

[An1mag1qu3]

In the past you could have cut and pasted this comment and replaced Frozen with Tickle Me Elmo, Cabbage Patch Kids, My Little Pony, Buzz Lightyear (who made a trip into space by the way) and others.

The point that I and others are making is that while some of the above examples aren't based on movies, they were highly sought after by kids. Before long another item and/or film came along and replaced them. Each time people commented on the spectacular success of said item and before long most were forgotten. Buzz, by the way, is still selling nearly 20 years after his first appearance. If Anna and Elsa do the same (enough to make them stand out above the other princesses) I'll give them their due.

I won't take away from Frozen's success. The numbers are there to prove it. However dollars don't translate into culture (unless you're a Ferengi). Does the item in question become part of the lexicon of society? Does it stay around when other fads come into existence? "Let It Go" may be the tune that many folks are humming now, but if they are still humming it ten or even five years from now that will define (at least partially) Frozen's status in culture.

I'm sure a lot of people said the same things about Lion King and Toy Story. Give it time.

 

[An1mag1qu3]

See my biggest issue with all these people complaining about Frozen is... You all complain when Disney focuses on other properties they bought from other companies, but when Disney finally has a new franchise of their own that's a hit and they capitalize on it, it suddenly becomes a problem.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

In the past you could have cut and pasted this comment and replaced Frozen with Tickle Me Elmo, Cabbage Patch Kids, My Little Pony, Buzz Lightyear (who made a trip into space by the way) and others.

The point that I and others are making is that while some of the above examples aren't based on movies, they were highly sought after by kids. Before long another item and/or film came along and replaced them. Each time people commented on the spectacular success of said item and before long most were forgotten. Buzz, by the way, is still selling nearly 20 years after his first appearance. If Anna and Elsa do the same (enough to make them stand out above the other princesses) I'll give them their due.

I won't take away from Frozen's success. The numbers are there to prove it. However dollars don't translate into culture (unless you're a Ferengi). Does the item in question become part of the lexicon of society? Does it stay around when other fads come into existence? "Let It Go" may be the tune that many folks are humming now, but if they are still humming it ten or even five years from now that will define (at least partially) Frozen's status in culture.

The items you listed: Tickle Me Elmo, Cabbage Patch Kids, My Little Pony, Buzz Lightyear, were definitely popular toys that had a cultural impact, but what makes Frozen different from a cultural perspective has little to do with toy sales and dollars. The kids reaction, the videos, the playgrounds, the names, the songs, the videos, the covers, the blogs, the references, the songs, the... These are the cultural reactions. The amazing toy and DVD sales are a symptom of the cultural phenomenon, they are not the phenomenon. People weren't naming their kids Elmo. People weren't getting married in Cabbage Patch dresses. Buzz Lightyear didn't sell 3 million costumes (and counting) People's reaction across the world are what makes this a unique cultural event without precedent.

I guess the only disagreement Locked Out and I have is the time factor. I say a year is plenty long enough (actually a few months was long enough) to measure the cultural impact which is now obvious.

I think a combination of factors make this the right movie at the right time. Disney princesses not needing men, but liking them, fear as the villain, complex sisters as heroes, great songs, turning Disney tropes on their head - to everyone's surprise and joy - at just the right time in history. Not only are little girls mesmerized, their parents and older siblings love it too. And the quality of writing, characters, and humor made it generally appealing, too. All these together caused people to go nuts for it. I did. A Disney movie that properly defines love, talks about self sacrifice - it is actually a major theme throughout the movie! That is awesome. Many others thought so too.

No Disney movie this successful in the short term is anything less than a classic later; however, franchise is a much bigger challenge. That may not be possible, although I think Disney will try. It may not be possible, because the very things I mentioned may not be replicable. We will see.

 

[jon18uk]

I would suggest the OP doesn't go to Universal then, the only ride left from opening day of Universal Orlando is ET.
Peoples tastes change, technology changes, new films become popular, change is inevitable. The fact that DCA opened with the Muppet Vision show which was already dated when DCA opened seemed stupid anyway.

 

[MrInfinity]

This comes down to a lot of their marketing strategy. Disney's prime marketing target is kids 3-9 and the parents of kids 3-9.

Disney puts in rides to covet these two groups. Pretty much skipping over the older folks, and the teens and pre-teens, cuz those two demographics pretty much go where the parents with young families will take them.

10 years ago, the parents of kids 3-9 were parents that grew up watching the Muppets. So, Disney went and grabbed the Muppets and implemented them. This was in their target demographic, to pull in 25-30 year old parents of the 80's (me). Same thing with Indiana Jones at Disneyland.

Today, all the demand among parents of 3-9 year old daughters is not Indiana Jones, the Muppets, or the like, it's Frozen. It's Jake and the Pirates, Phineas & Ferb, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

This is a working strategy, to keep changing to what is in demand. The question really is what will Universal do, since Uni is largely locked into some brands that are waning. They've lost the rights to put in anything new Marvel... HP is awesome, but it is targeted at parents and teens of the early 2000's, once that group ages a bit, HP's relevance in the world will diminish as new kids will not have seen the movies. (is HP going to come up with new kids as Star Wars is and expand the legacy? That would be about the only option to keep HP relevant in 10 years).

Muppetvision is not a "classic" with original Disney characters, like say, Small World, or the Tiki Room, it's a relatively expendable acquisition that is not particularly relevant in today's society other than on Youtube shorts, and in remembrance of much we cracked up at them as kids.

I love Muppetvision... am happy to have seen it in all 3 of my last trips... but if there is something new there, I would not be too upset by that.

 

[Whatsthegoodword]

I haven't had to wait in line for "Muppetvison 3D" in over ten years. We go annually, at least.

I hope they bring it back, but it's high time for a change in that corner.

 

[Donut23]

See...I think it's the exact opposite.

I don't see the frozen story to translate well over time.
It's a good story...but I don't see what really sets it apart. It has good characters all around...that's it's strength. The visuals are good but not spectacular compared to other Disney movies.

We're gonna have to wait and see.

I think frozen hit a soft spot in the entertainment calendar.
It hasn't been challenged by any other property..the releases have been weak all year..

Which ironically fits the mold of titanic...and avatar ironically.

There hasn't been much competition for that market or the overall market. Which is rare.

Perhaps I am the only one..........but I am WAY over Frozen. When you start to hear TV personalities joke and equate it to Beating A Dead Horse you know Disney is beginning to overwhelm the market.

My advice to Disney?


Let It Go!

 

[Donut23]

See...I think it's the exact opposite.

I don't see the frozen story to translate well over time.
It's a good story...but I don't see what really sets it apart. It has good characters all around...that's it's strength. The visuals are good but not spectacular compared to other Disney movies.

We're gonna have to wait and see.

I think frozen hit a soft spot in the entertainment calendar.
It hasn't been challenged by any other property..the releases have been weak all year..

Which ironically fits the mold of titanic...and avatar ironically.

There hasn't been much competition for that market or the overall market. Which is rare.

Perhaps I am the only one..........but I am WAY over Frozen. When you start to hear TV personalities joke and equate it to Beating A Dead Horse you know Disney is beginning to overwhelm the market.

My advice to Disney?


Let It Go!

 

[luisov]

Perhaps I am the only one..........but I am WAY over Frozen. When you start to hear TV personalities joke and equate it to Beating A Dead Horse you know Disney is beginning to overwhelm the market.

My advice to Disney?


Let It Go!

The thing is... The audiences won't let it go either. The Frozen toys are flying off the shelves this Christmas season, and you can bet Disney will be there to fill them up again.

You see, regardless of its big success, Big Hero 6 is still overshadowed by Frozen one year after its release, and the audiences are probably responsible of that.