The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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Not YAGE-ing or anything - but I think it would be best for those of us who are proud of both the nominees to avoid this thread until one or the other is chosen. The bickering is getting to be way to negative and pitting dem against dem.

~Amanda
 
That is a good question. I don't know whether they've "taken her aside" nor if they would or should or could. Personally, I think it should be up to her as to when to get out. Obama has the lead, and I do think he will retain it, but she is very close behind with a lot of support. The party leadership should think long and hard before they ask either candidate to bow out now or come to some agreement.

And definitely, if she'd lost Ohio and the primary in Texas, I think Hillary should have ended her campaign. Personally, I don't think this race is all that bad for the party. The negativity is nowhere near as bad as it could be, and they're generating a TON of publicity for the Democrats. It's almost like "John Who?" on the Republican side. Who cares that he's running except for his die-hard supporters?

Good post.
 
It's only an "override" if Obama has a clear cut majority - as in 2025. One hundred delegates does not make a majority.

Even at the caucus, which Obama is such a fan of, party rules dictated that if the vote for a precinct office wasn't won by a specific majority we had to vote over until we reached it.

You're trying to paint this as if Hillary is trying to steal the nomination. She's not, she's playing by the rules as they are currently written. I understand you'll be disappointed if it doesn't work out the way you want. But Hillary didn't write the rules. She's just playing the cards she's been dealt.

After everyone votes, he will have more delegates than her. Period. Anything the super-delegates do to give someone the nomination other than the person that won the most delegates is an override of the people's vote, by definition.

And you can't say she is "playing by the rules" when she refuses to stop saying she won in Michigan and Florida and those delegates should count. Those states not getting delegates were as much a part of the rules as the 2025 everyone keeps throwing around. There is no difference between the two.
 
I've pretty much just lurked throughout this whole Hatfield-McCoy feud that the Democratic nomination process has evolved into, but allow me to throw a couple of comments in;

-Having personally lived through enough election cycles, I've come to realize that the process is designed specifically as presently constituted for several good reasons. The election isn't merely a popularity contest; it's a ridiculously long, grueling affair purposely designed to winnow out those candidates who cannot problem solve, overcome objections, or properly assemble and then delegate to hand-picked staff to handle everything just the right way to "stay on the tracks" all while still retaining enough popular support to achieve their goals.

Just like the Presidency.

-While there is tremendous hand-wringing about all this at the moment, regardless of the eventual winner, this will all be forgotten by labor day after the dust of both conventions has settled and everyone focuses in on the general election.

Either democratic candidate will be severely battle-tested by the time one arises from the ashes. And no matter how you spin it, that is a good thing.

Keep your focus on the big picture.

Well said.



& I'm going to say it again. It's no longer about the delegates....since neither person can get the number necessary. It's about positioning yourself so that the SuperDs select you. & the final tally of pledged delegates will be ONLY one of many factors that they will use.

You can state that it isn't fair, but it doesn't change the reality. If BO wants to win the nomination, he's going to have to win the popular vote, or be d*mn close.

& to those under 35-40 out there....read the quote above. This has been a VERY civil campaign...but it will get worse.....& worse. & the one who's standing at the end will be strong enough (& smart enough) to take on whatever the Repubs. are going to dish out.

Kumbaya is over. I suspect BO knows that....rode it as long as he could...& is smart enough to make the correction. If he isn't, he's toast. (I think he'll offer to pay half of a re-do in MI & FL in an attempt to flank HC....& it would be genius....since a re-do is inevitable).

This is a VERY cool election. Those who are getting emotional about it are missing a good show. I frankly can't think of anything more compelling than 2 candidates trying to fight for EVERY SINGLE VOTE over the next 3 months in an attempt to nab the "Popular Vote". & I believe that person would get the nomination & destroy McC in November.
 

After everyone votes, he will have more delegates than her. Period. Anything the super-delegates do to give someone the nomination other than the person that won the most delegates is an override of the people's vote, by definition.

And you can't say she is "playing by the rules" when she refuses to stop saying she won in Michigan and Florida and those delegates should count. Those states not getting delegates were as much a part of the rules as the 2025 everyone keeps throwing around. There is no difference between the two.

If you don't get 2025, you didn't get a majority.

I've been involved (voted) in dozens of elections where this happened & there was a "runoff". For whatever reason, instead of a "runoff", the Dems decided to have "SuperDs" decide.

At this point, saying "he should get the nod because he has the most delegates"....is the same as me saying "HC should get the nod because she won the most swing states". They are both opinions that will factor into the decision, but they are now only opinions. & I think both "opinions" are valid.....will be behind the "popular vote winner" opinion.
 
If you don't get 2025, you didn't get a majority.

I've been involved (voted) in dozens of elections where this happened & there was a "runoff". For whatever reason, instead of a "runoff", the Dems decided to have "SuperDs" decide.

At this point, saying "he should get the nod because he has the most delegates"....is the same as me saying "HC should get the nod because she won the most swing states". They are both opinions that will factor into the decision, but they are now only opinions. & I think both "opinions" are valid.....will be behind the "popular vote winner" opinion.

I do not agree that if you do not get to 2025 you did not get a majority.

Pledged delegates represent people's votes, it's a stretch to say that the number of highest delegates is equal to the greatest number of swing states, because states represent just that, a state. Pledged delegates represent all 50 states.
 
If you don't get 2025, you didn't get a majority.

I've been involved (voted) in dozens of elections where this happened & there was a "runoff". For whatever reason, instead of a "runoff", the Dems decided to have "SuperDs" decide.

At this point, saying "he should get the nod because he has the most delegates"....is the same as me saying "HC should get the nod because she won the most swing states". They are both opinions that will factor into the decision, but they are now only opinions. & I think both "opinions" are valid.....will be behind the "popular vote winner" opinion.

In which case a this point Obama still has a 500,000 vote lead.
 
If you don't get 2025, you didn't get a majority.

I've been involved (voted) in dozens of elections where this happened & there was a "runoff". For whatever reason, instead of a "runoff", the Dems decided to have "SuperDs" decide.

At this point, saying "he should get the nod because he has the most delegates"....is the same as me saying "HC should get the nod because she won the most swing states". They are both opinions that will factor into the decision, but they are now only opinions. & I think both "opinions" are valid.....will be behind the "popular vote winner" opinion.

So Bill Clinton should never have been president, then? 2025 was a goal set to try to reach a consensus. By getting 51% of all available delegates, you would show that you are far and above the other 9,011 candidates that began the primary season running.

The simple fact is that he will end up with more of the delegates voting for him than are voting for her. Did he reach the 2025 finish line? No. But if a race car driver only finishes nine laps, and his opponent finishes 10, that opponent is going to be placed above that driver, even if the race was 15 laps long. He will have more delegates than her.

No, it would be the equivalent of saying "HC should get the nod because she won the most states". Of course, that isn't going to happen, so you can't say that.

I do understand the rules of the party, and I know that he'll have to have the Supes to get him over the 2025 mark. But I also know why those party rules were put into place, and I'm sorry, but Hillary Clinton and anyone campaigning for the Supes to overturn the electorate is just twisting the rules to try to get them to support her nomination.
 
In which case a this point Obama still has a 500,000 vote lead.

Correct.

But it will be interesting to see where it will be when FL, MI, & Penn (& all the rest) vote.

& this is also the reason that in Wyoming & Miss, two states that HC will lose....Bill is in Wyoming & HC is in Miss today. (& i bet BO will be in Miss tomorrow & they'll be fighting for every single vote).
 
I do not agree that if you do not get to 2025 you did not get a majority.

Pledged delegates represent people's votes, it's a stretch to say that the number of highest delegates is equal to the greatest number of swing states, because states represent just that, a state. Pledged delegates represent all 50 states.

You may disagree, but that is how it works. We went through this on Tuesday while voting for officers. We had to calculate how many people were there and what the majority was (I think it was 43) In one case we had 4 people vying for one position. One candidate recieved 40 votes and the rest of the votes were split among among the three other candidates. The person with 40 had the lead but not the majority needed. We had to keep revoting until she got the required 43 votes.


It's not just some rule we pulled outof thin air to justify Hillary continuing to run. The system is set up that way to prevent one candidate from winning with a questionable margin. Bush won with a highly questionable margin and look how destructive that's been to out country.
 
You guys are still discussing (debating) what's "fair".

I'm suggesting what the "reality" is..... & it will be that the popular vote is what will likely determine this thing.

IMO, BO (because he's smart) will assess the reality of it today or tomorrow & he will be campaigning HARD in Miss. for each vote.

& he will likely push hard for a re-do in FL & MI & will go after "each & every vote in MI & FL" in an attempt to triangulate HC's current "seat the FL delegates" plea.

.
 
After everyone votes, he will have more delegates than her. Period. Anything the super-delegates do to give someone the nomination other than the person that won the most delegates is an override of the people's vote, by definition.

But that is what the super-delegates are there for. :confused3 If you don't like it, try to get it changed for the next time around. But the system was put into place and we have to suck up and live with it this year. I'd be for not having the SD if we had closed primaries. :thumbsup2

I've been involved (voted) in dozens of elections where this happened & there was a "runoff". For whatever reason, instead of a "runoff", the Dems decided to have "SuperDs" decide.

Correct. Again, I think the open primaries and the caucus are the problem. If those were changed we could get rid of the SDs and go with the delegates because we'd know it was the will of the Democrates.

I think it would be best for those of us who are proud of both the nominees to avoid this thread until one or the other is chosen. The bickering is getting to be way to negative and pitting dem against dem

I think I agree. I don't mind an honest debate, but when people start talking about throwing people under a bus....we get enough of that kind of talk from the right. We don't need it amongst ourselves. Just my opinion.

Either democratic candidate will be severely battle-tested by the time one arises from the ashes. And no matter how you spin it, that is a good thing. Keep your focus on the big picture.

Ah, another voice of reason.

If I intend to have any "love" left for Obama and many of his followers when this is over, I think I need to stop reading this thread for a while. The hate some folks are spewing around here is poisoning my feeling for the man.
 
I've pretty much just lurked throughout this whole Hatfield-McCoy feud that the Democratic nomination process has evolved into, but allow me to throw a couple of comments in;

-Having personally lived through enough election cycles, I've come to realize that the process is designed specifically as presently constituted for several good reasons. The election isn't merely a popularity contest; it's a ridiculously long, grueling affair purposely designed to winnow out those candidates who cannot problem solve, overcome objections, or properly assemble and then delegate to hand-picked staff to handle everything just the right way to "stay on the tracks" all while still retaining enough popular support to achieve their goals.

Just like the Presidency.

-While there is tremendous hand-wringing about all this at the moment, regardless of the eventual winner, this will all be forgotten by labor day after the dust of both conventions has settled and everyone focuses in on the general election.

Either democratic candidate will be severely battle-tested by the time one arises from the ashes. And no matter how you spin it, that is a good thing.

Keep your focus on the big picture.

:thumbsup2

If you don't get 2025, you didn't get a majority.

They way the numbers are now there is no way either candidate can get that 2025 number without including the SD's.
 
They way the numbers are now there is no way either candidate can get that 2025 number without including the SD's.

Actually, that's not quite true. Barack needs to get about the same percentage of remaining delegates that Hillary needs just to catch him.

But I get what you're saying...both are impossible. ;)
 
Heck in Texas, ol Zip could have voted in our primary AND in our caucus. :lmao:

And who's to say I didn't?
hclaw.gif
 
Actually, that's not quite true. Barack needs to get about the same percentage of remaining delegates that Hillary needs just to catch him.

But I get what you're saying...both are impossible. ;)
Obama has 1366 delegates not counting supers from the site I'm looking at now. There is a bit of a difference in site to site, but I'll be generous and give him 50 free delegates. That brings him up to 1416. There are 566 delegates left. If he won 100% he would be under the 2025 number if he didn't have any supers. Winning more than 100% is impossible.

Obama is up about 144 delegates on HC at the moment among pledged delegates. If HC wins 64% of the delegates left, she will be ahead of Obama at the end of the primaries. It's not likely, but it doesn't fall into the impossible column. If they add Fla. and Mich. and she wins decently in both of those big states, now it becomes a heck of a lot more possible.

So the statement was:The way the numbers are now, there is no way either candidate can get that 2025 number without including the SD's.
Which is the not quite true part?
 
"Democrats Abroad" gets half delegates. I'm sure Hillary got some as well, but it worked out that she had an even number.

:thumbsup2 Thanks


Oiy! who thinks up these things?:confused3
 
Obama has 1366 delegates not counting supers from the site I'm looking at now. There is a bit of a difference in site to site, but I'll be generous and give him 50 free delegates. That brings him up to 1416. There are 566 delegates left. If he won 100% he would be under the 2025 number if he didn't have any supers. Winning more than 100% is impossible.

Obama is up about 144 delegates on HC at the moment among pledged delegates. If HC wins 64% of the delegates left, she will be ahead of Obama at the end of the primaries. It's not likely, but it doesn't fall into the impossible column. If they add Fla. and Mich. and she wins decently in both of those big states, now it becomes a heck of a lot more possible.

So the statement was:The way the numbers are now, there is no way either candidate can get that 2025 number without including the SD's.
Which is the not quite true part?

I'll have to go back and check, but you may be correct, as I last heard that comment before this Tuesday, so that may have changed the formula.
 
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