The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[Honu]

Explain to me how Clinton campaigned there when it was Obama running ads there?

Obama is not asking for the votes to count.

 

[eclectics]

The DNC passed a set of election rules in 2006, and I think it was voted in unanimously, that if a state changed their election date from the schedule set by the DNC, they'd forfeit half their delegate count to the the national nominating convention and if a candidate campaigned in that state, they'd forfeit all the delegates they won from that state.

Florida decided to move it's primary date knowing this and Clinton campaigned there knowing this. It's not going to be reversed.

I hope not. It should be a done deal.

 

[JARNJ3]

Has the DNC indicated they are considering counting the two states afterall?

They are experiencing extreme pressure from voters in those states to have their votes counted.........

Floridians sued the DNC for their initial approach of stripping their delegates. The Supreme Court threw the suit out, claiming since it was a primary - there was no constitutional right to vote, because the party can set the rules......

One of many articles below:

Clinton pushes party to recognise Florida delegates


Ewen MacAskill in West Palm Beach, Florida
Tuesday January 29, 2008
Guardian Unlimited

The Clinton camp today renewed efforts to force the Democratic party to recognise the outcome of the Florida primary and allow the state's 185 delegates to be counted in a tight race.

Mark Penn, Hillary Clinton's chief strategist, said they would push the Democratic National Committee to allow the results of both Florida and Michigan to be counted at the party's convention in August. Any challenge by Clinton supporters will be vigorously resisted by the Obama camp.

Hundreds of thousands of Democrats took part in today's primary, outstripping the numbers who participated in earlier caucuses and primaries.

However the Democratic national committee (DNC), the party's ruling body, will not recognise the outcome because the state broke party rules by holding its primary early. "Nothing has changed," a party source said. "Florida will still have zero delegates. The party has booked no rooms for them at the convention."

Hillary Clinton is challenging that ruling. Her chief strategist, Mark Penn, held a phone conference with reporters today on 'Why Florida matters' and Clinton was scheduled to hold a party in Davie, Florida, last night.

The Clinton team said that while it was reluctant to get into an argument with the DNC the votes of 1 million people mattered.

Penn said that while the candidates had not campaigned in Florida - though he accused Obama of breaching the rules by running ads - voters had seen the televised debates and had followed the campaigns elsewhere. "That makes it an election," he said.

Florida could become pivotal for the Democratic party in much the same way that it was central to the outcome of the 2000 presidential election between George Bush and Al Gore in which the result came down to the courts and hanging chads.

It is the fourth most populous state in the country and pressure will mount on the Democratic national committee to review its decision, not just from the Clintons but influential Democratic figures from Michigan, which has also been stripped of its delegates, and Florida.

The DNC in November stripped the state of its delegates when it opted to hold its primary before February 5. Florida was fed up that small states going early such as Iowa and New Hampshire received almost all the media attention.

Barack Obama and Clinton signed voluntary agreements not to campaign in rebel states, Michigan as well as Florida.

Clinton won Michigan, which held its primary on January 15 and which has 128 delegates, mainly because her name remained on the ballot while Obama removed his.

To win the Democratic nomination, Clinton or Obama needs a majority of the 4,049 delegates to the party convention. Against that background, the combined number of delegates from Florida, 313, could become all-important.

The Democratic party source said that it was unlikely that the issue would go to the courts, though there were court challenges in the run-up to the Florida and Michigan contests.

He noted that the supreme court ruled two decades ago that parties had the right to decide how to organise their own contests. The source said the issue could be decided by the party's credentials committee, which will have about 180 members from across the country. The make-up will be dictated by the results of the primaries and caucuses.

Supporters of Obama and John Edwards will be on the committee and would almost certainly oppose Michigan and Florida being allowed to send delegates.

Professor Michael McDonald, a specialist on elections at Virginia's George Mason University, said: "This is largely a matter for the political parties to decide since they get to set their own rules for how they select their presidential nominee.

"It may be that at the Democratic convention, if a nominee emerges with a majority of delegates, that the nominee would change the rules to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Clinton is the nominee most likely to take this action."

 

[punkin]

Obama is not asking for the votes to count.

OK, that's not what I asked. Explain to me how you can say that Clinton campaigned there when Obama was the one running the ads?

 

[NewJersey]

They are experiencing extreme pressure from voters in those states to have their votes counted.........

Floridians sued the DNC for their initial approach of stripping their delegates. The Supreme Court threw the suit out, claiming since it was a primary - there was no constitutional right to vote, because the party can set the rules......

The rules were set and they should be kept.

 

[JARNJ3]

Explain to me how Clinton campaigned there when it was Obama running ads there?

Yes - I'd like to see evidence of this......

 

["Got Disney"]

Has the DNC indicated they are considering counting the two states afterall?

it has been mentioned that they may after a certain time ..after all the primaries are done. They did not want the held back delegates to sway a decision either way for any candidates. It is still up in the air

But they are getting a lot of slack due to Floridians being mad that they did not count so they went out and voted anyway. It was also a worry for a while that Floridians were going to rebel and change there parties to Rep just so they could vote...but that did not happen..

here is what you are looking for DU....to answer your questions better

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/aug/28/na-by-refusing-to-count-our-votes-democrats-are-wr/

 

[NewJersey]

OK, that's not what I asked. Explain to me how you can say that Clinton campaigned there when Obama was the one running the ads?

He was running ads?

Clinton wasn't campaigning but it was pretty annoying what she was trying to pull that week - saying the votes should be counted (she was up by 30 in the polls, so of course she'll say that), holding a fundraiser in two cities, and then having a nice little photo op in sunny FL with the palm trees in the background.

Just left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[punkin]

He was running ads?

Clinton wasn't campaigning but it was pretty annoying what she was trying to pull that week - saying the votes should be counted (she was up by 30 in the polls, so of course she'll say that), holding a fundraiser in two cities, and then having a nice little photo op in sunny FL with the palm trees in the background.

Just left a bad taste in my mouth.

From a quick Google search:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080123/NEWS/801230668

The fund raisers were held AFTER the primary, No?
Florida is full of retired NYers. Where else would a NY Senator hold a fund raiser?

 

["Got Disney"]

Me thinks there are Hillary haters in here

 

[punkin]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23041674]Me thinks there are Hillary haters in here [/QUOTE]

You think?

 

[NewJersey]

From a quick Google search:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080123/NEWS/801230668

The fund raisers were held AFTER the primary, No?
Florida is full of retired NYers. Where else would a NY Senator hold a fund raiser?

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009854582

 

[NewJersey]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23041674]Me thinks there are Hillary haters in here [/QUOTE]

Just as Hillary supporters are passionate about their candidate, so are we. Should I call those who bring up negative points about Obama, 'haters'?

 

[JARNJ3]

Yes - I'd like to see evidence of this......

Ok - I found "the evidence" myself:

You can decide if this was "campaigning." Obama's commercials actually appeared on Floridians TVs. Obama also had the big "mo" from SC.

I am not belaboring this cause of Hillary - I'd be annoyed if I was one of those living in FL........

I am sure in the end - something will be worked out. The Dems need FL for the General Election.......

Did Clinton break Democrats' no Florida campaigning pledge?
By ANNA SCOTT

anna.scott@heraldtribune.com
SIESTA KEY -- Sen. Hillary Clinton appeared to break her pledge against public campaigning in Florida on Sunday by greeting a group of neighbors waiting outside a private fundraiser.

The crowd cheered when Clinton's motorcade stopped. She stepped out and smiled and waved, posed for pictures with supporters and even answered a question from a reporter.

When asked whether this meant she was breaking the Democratic boycott and campaigning before Florida's primary Tuesday, Clinton said, "I just wanted to say hello to a few people who were nice enough to wait for me."

She then promised to return on Tuesday.

"I'm going to campaign very hard to win Florida in November," she said. "That's why I want the Florida delegates to be seated at the convention. I'm going to ask my delegates to vote to do that."

The Democratic presidential candidates pledged not to campaign here before the primary under pressure from the Democratic National Committee, which stripped Florida of its delegates when the state Legislature voted to move the primary date from March to Jan. 29, breaking the party's rules. It is up to the other delegates around the country, not the committee, to decide who gets seated at the party's national nominating convention.

Clinton, D-N.Y., is ahead in the polls in Florida. But Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., is riding momentum from a win Saturday night in the South Carolina primary.

Clinton's campaign criticized Obama for breaking the pledge when he recently bought a cable television advertisement that aired in Florida, which Obama said was unavoidable because it was a national ad.

While Clinton did talk with supporters, hearing her give an actual speech meant paying at least $1,000 to be admitted to the $6.6 million home of David and Myrna Band on Flamingo Avenue. One of the Bands' sons, Doug Band, is an aide to former President Bill Clinton..

More than 200 people attended the fundraiser. So far, Clinton has raised more than $7 million in Florida -- about $2.3 million since pledging in September not to campaign publicly.

She was expected to bring in another $750,000 Sunday between the fundraiser in Sarasota and two more in Miami Beach.

In her speech to donors at the Bands' house, Clinton talked about domestic issues and did not mention her loss in South Carolina, according to Gary Smith, Sen. Bob Graham's former chief of staff, who attended the party with his wife.

"She talked about Florida's future, a lot about children's programs, and a lot about the economy," Smith said. "She talked about Sarasota being an Eden-like place: 'Paradise,' she said."

Harry Ramhofer, a 17-year-old Booker High School student, said Clinton spoke about the rising cost of college and possibly allowing students to do community service to pay their tuition.

Clinton arrived about an hour late for the 3:30 p.m. event in a caravan escorted by the Secret Service and police officers.

The Araboghli family skipped their dinner plans to wait for Clinton's car to go by, hoping for a glimpse -- or better. Sami Araboghli, 11, was visibly crushed when the cars rolled by, their tinted windows obscuring any view. "I wanted to tell my friends at school that I shook her hand," he said.

A few hours later, he and the rest of the neighbors cheered and chanted, "Thank you, Hillary," when she made the surprise stop on her way out.

"I saw you all waiting and I wanted to say hello," Clinton said. Teenagers and children were given first dibs at photos with Clinton.

"Sure, dear, come on up here," Clinton said to 16-year-old Cristina Conable, putting her arm around her shoulders while Conable's mother snapped the shot.

"I just live on this street and Hillary Clinton comes driving down and gets out and says hi," Cristina said later. "That was really great of her."

Sami rode his bike home with a smile on his face. "I was wondering why the Secret Service was coming out and I thought they were going to block the road again, but then Hillary came out and everyone was like, 'Hillary! Hillary!'," he said. I was so surprised."

Earlier Sunday, Clinton's campaign sent out a press release saying she would visit Florida to thank supporters Tuesday "after all polls are closed in the Florida primary, in accordance with her pledge."

 

[punkin]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009854582

Am I missing something in your article? Did she campaign in Florida before the primaries were over?

 

["Got Disney"]

Just as Hillary supporters are passionate about their candidate, so are we. Should I call those who bring up negative points about Obama, 'haters'?

No but we have made it perfectly clear that we will vote for Obama if Hillary is not nominated....

As for as neg stuff on Obama we have just been asking questions about his issues that we have not hered him clarify

and the Obama supporters have gotten upset about it...

 

[punkin]

Just as Hillary supporters are passionate about their candidate, so are we. Should I call those who bring up negative points about Obama, 'haters'?

I happen to like Obama. I just prefer Hillary. I also don't feel the need to exaggerate, sling mud, or outright lie about him.

 

[Honu]

Just as Hillary supporters are passionate about their candidate, so are we. Should I call those who bring up negative points about Obama, 'haters'?

Let it go Tim. When someone resorts to calling names, that's all they've got.

 

[NewJersey]

Am I missing something in your article? Did she campaign in Florida before the primaries were over?

As you can read in my earlier post, I didn't say she campaigned.

Clinton wasn't campaigning

 

[JARNJ3]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009854582

Sarasota, FL (AHN) - Presidential hopeful Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is in the state of Florida for private fundraisers. Because Florida displeased the Democratic Party by moving its primary to Jan. 29 the delegates won't count and candidates have pledged not to campaign here, but attending fundraisers is allowed.