The Everything VEGAN Thread

@MyMagicKingdom - sorry - none in the area as yet - but every time I visit somewhere I make sure to stop by one (for example - went to Boston for a baby shower a few weeks ago and made sure to stop at one on the way home! I also stopped by the local Whole Foods) I keep hoping we will get a TJ's but in the meantime, Wegmans, Natur-Tyme and Green Planet Grocery will be just fine!
(with a side of Stronghearts of course!!!!)
 
Looks like the thread went quiet, but I figured I'd say hello and see if anyone's still around! My name is Samantha and I live in NYC and LOVE LOVE LOVE (vegan) food. My boyfriend and I went vegan almost a year ago and everything about it has just felt like the right choice... cooking vegan food is my number 1 hobby. :rotfl2:

So far I really like it. I hear you about the vegan cheese though, I usually have the same problem. My family is from Italy and I have yet to find a vegan parmesan that doesn't make me want to throw up.

Have you tried Isa Chandra Moskowitz's Almesan recipe? Honestly it doesn't really taste like parmesan, of course, but it's healthy (primarily made with almonds), the texture is very nice, it keeps very well in the fridge (so you can make a big batch at a time), and really plays the roll of a good grated parmesan to eat with pasta and such, and would probably taste great on vegetables, as well.

In case any of you are interested, my daughter's website has tons of vegan recipes, vegan cookbook reviews, and links to other vegan blogs. She is a vegan chef. Her website is about to launch a new design (which will make it much easier to find recipes by categories or to look up cookbooks she's reviewed) but you can look at the old version now (the new version will have the same URL): www.veganculinarycrusade.com.

(I know I'm her mom, but I think she's amazing!)

Teresa

Thanks for the post! I will definitely check it out!
 
Just wanted to say hello on this thread! I call myself "veganish" I'm 100% vegan most days but do eat a few things that aren't actually vegan, like o soy yogurt, and I think my veggie Parmesan has something milk based in it, stuff like that. And I will eat honey from local responsibly raised bees now and then bc I do very much want to support healthy bee numbers.

I looooove the vegan cooking for carnivores book! He uses a lot of the replacement meats but a lot of recipes don't, I try not to eat those products too often bc I like to eat naturally, but we had a very non-vegan dinner guest over last night and I served the chick'n pot pie and a pumpkin cheesecake recipe from that book and he loved both!

I am vegan for animal cruelty reasons, health reasons, and environmental reasons.

We recently got back from Disney and we are dvc so we cooked in for breakfast and dinner and ate lunch in the parks, I am not one of those people who wants to make a scene bugging people about exact ingredients so I'm sure I did some vegetarian stuff but I definitely did not eat anything that obviously had dairy or egg.

Speaking of dairy, I also hate most vegan cheese products so I have just done without cheese mostly. I've learned to really enjoy a cheese less pizza :)
 
Hello All! We are not vegan but we try to eat healthy. I wanted to reccomend a great cookbook. Veganomicon. It is a great read and has great recipes. It even tells you at the beginning what to stock your kitchen with. I love that because who wants to go shopping just for one meal? They even have desserts. I would love to hear if anyone has a simply recipe for Gluten free dairy free bread. TIA!:cutie:
 

I second the rec for Veganomicon! I don't own it but I keep taking it out of the library!

Has anyone tried Diaya cheese? I saw it at Wegmans and am curious if its good
 
We like Daiya cheese a lot around here. It melts really well, so is a nice topping on pizza, chili, etc. My son likes to put it on tortilla chips, microwave them, and then dip them in salsa.

TP
 
I am so glad I came across this--I tested positive for a milk allergy, so I figured it's as good a time as any to switch to vegan. For some reason the hardest thing i am trying to replace is butter. Every brand of margine I have looked at has some milk in it. Does anyone have any suggestions?
 
Becel does make a vegan margarine.

But my favourite is Earth Balance. It now comes in several varieties and all the ones I've tried are very good. It's good on bread, in baking, however you want to use it. I feed it to non-vegans all the time and I've never had anyone realize that it wasn't butter.

TP
 
Becel does make a vegan margarine.

But my favourite is Earth Balance. It now comes in several varieties and all the ones I've tried are very good. It's good on bread, in baking, however you want to use it. I feed it to non-vegans all the time and I've never had anyone realize that it wasn't butter.

TP

Thank you, I'll look for it on my next trip to the store. And BTW, love your daughter's blog :goodvibes
 
Just wanted to say hello on this thread! I call myself "veganish" I'm 100% vegan most days but do eat a few things that aren't actually vegan, like o soy yogurt, and I think my veggie Parmesan has something milk based in it, stuff like that. And I will eat honey from local responsibly raised bees now and then bc I do very much want to support healthy bee numbers....

Speaking of dairy, I also hate most vegan cheese products so I have just done without cheese mostly. I've learned to really enjoy a cheese less pizza :)

Cheeseless pizza is great! I'm with you on being 100% most days but not wanting to make every occasion that I eat out into a scene (especially when I'm with friends and family). Because I'm vegan primarily for ethical reasons, I like modeling to omnivores that "vegan" is an adjective, not just a noun, in that you can make vegan choices--and lots of them!--every day, but that reducing your consumption of meat and dairy is also REALLY worthwhile, even if you don't cut everything out all at once. I hear people say all the time "oh, I could NEVER give up cheese" or whatever, and I try to respond that, hey, that's OK, but that doesn't mean you can't switch to non-dairy milk, or maybe make cheese a special occasion food. I think an all-or-nothing mentality often makes people think, "OK, then nothing!" Especially when I'm traveling with others, I hate to make veganism look as if it's all about deprivation, so I try to keep everything in perspective and show that you can be 100% vegan at home, but it's ok to be 95% vegan sometimes, too--to have a slice of cake at your friend's wedding, or to have some milk in your coffee when there's no soy milk available. It still reduces demand, and it still makes a positive impact.

I second the rec for Veganomicon! I don't own it but I keep taking it out of the library!

Has anyone tried Diaya cheese? I saw it at Wegmans and am curious if its good

It's fine... the texture is still really kind of gross for me, but the flavor is really good and I LOVE to bake it into biscuits. But that's about the only way that I use it.

I also second the rec for Veganomicon, although if you're just starting out and you're trying to be more health conscious, Appetite for Reduction (another Isa Chandra Moskowitz book) has recipes that are a bit simpler and has a lot of more healthy, weeknight meals. The nutrition info is even all included, which I found VERY useful, especially in tracking protein intake as a new vegan. (I've made about 70% of the recipes in there--if you'd like any recommendations feel free to PM me!) Chloe's Kitchen, a new book by Chloe Coscarelli is also very good, and takes a much simpler approach than Veganomicon with shorter ingredient lists and more basic versions of traditional foods--but her flavors are VERY good. She actually won Cupcake Wars with vegan cupcakes, which is kind of her initial claim to fame. Now her cookbook is getting lots of accolades, the stuff is really delicious. I've gotta say that's currently my favorite cookbook.

Becel does make a vegan margarine.

But my favourite is Earth Balance. It now comes in several varieties and all the ones I've tried are very good. It's good on bread, in baking, however you want to use it. I feed it to non-vegans all the time and I've never had anyone realize that it wasn't butter.

TP

Yes Earth Balance!! SO good! It can be a little tough to find, though, but it's worth putting a request into the supermarket for it... it is growing in popularity.
 
Y'all just made me did out my copy of Veginomicon! :)

There's a great vegan blog that always inspires me - ohhowsheglows.com. Great recipes!
 
I'm not vegan (or vegetarian) but I have been trying to find rice milk because I don't really like the taste of milk (I was --and still and mildly---lactose intolerant so I never grew up with drinking milk) and my doctors don't really want me drinking anymore soymilk (I eat gluten free and a lot of products have soy flour and I drink ensure which has soy in it).

The problem is, I've only ever seen rice dream rice milk and its not safe because they also make almond milk and I am allergic to tree nuts so my allergist said not to drink it because of the cross contamination concern.
 
Cheeseless pizza is great! I'm with you on being 100% most days but not wanting to make every occasion that I eat out into a scene (especially when I'm with friends and family). Because I'm vegan primarily for ethical reasons, I like modeling to omnivores that "vegan" is an adjective, not just a noun, in that you can make vegan choices--and lots of them!--every day, but that reducing your consumption of meat and dairy is also REALLY worthwhile, even if you don't cut everything out all at once. I hear people say all the time "oh, I could NEVER give up cheese" or whatever, and I try to respond that, hey, that's OK, but that doesn't mean you can't switch to non-dairy milk, or maybe make cheese a special occasion food. I think an all-or-nothing mentality often makes people think, "OK, then nothing!" Especially when I'm traveling with others, I hate to make veganism look as if it's all about deprivation, so I try to keep everything in perspective and show that you can be 100% vegan at home, but it's ok to be 95% vegan sometimes, too--to have a slice of cake at your friend's wedding, or to have some milk in your coffee when there's no soy milk available. It still reduces demand, and it still makes a positive impact.

Whatever floats your boat foodwise but PLEASE doh't call yourself vegan if you're not, or encourage other people to do that (which it sounds like you're doing, though I'm not sure).

It makes it that much harder for actual vegans.

It's like people who lie about allergies when they don't like something.

I'm not a vegan, I'm a veg, but people who say they're vegan/vegetarian when they're not make it harder for the rest of us. People will argue with you that something is vegetarian or vegan even though it has chicken, fish, etc. because their friend Timmy is a vegetarian and he eats that all the time!

No, Timmy is not a vegetarian.

"Oh, but you eat _______, right?" "No, I'm a veg***" "They can eat _____! Leo does and he's..."

NO. By definition, no.

I've been out to eat with people who go on about they're a veg**** and proceed to order chicken or fish - it confuses waiters, other people, everyone, and ends up blowing back at the rest of us who get 'just have some, Amy made it special because I told her you're a veg****, so she bought shrimp!'
 
Whatever floats your boat foodwise but PLEASE doh't call yourself vegan if you're not, or encourage other people to do that (which it sounds like you're doing, though I'm not sure).

It makes it that much harder for actual vegans.

It's like people who lie about allergies when they don't like something.

I'm not a vegan, I'm a veg, but people who say they're vegan/vegetarian when they're not make it harder for the rest of us. People will argue with you that something is vegetarian or vegan even though it has chicken, fish, etc. because their friend Timmy is a vegetarian and he eats that all the time!

No, Timmy is not a vegetarian.

"Oh, but you eat _______, right?" "No, I'm a veg***" "They can eat _____! Leo does and he's..."

NO. By definition, no.

I've been out to eat with people who go on about they're a veg**** and proceed to order chicken or fish - it confuses waiters, other people, everyone, and ends up blowing back at the rest of us who get 'just have some, Amy made it special because I told her you're a veg****, so she bought shrimp!'


Hmm. I understand where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree in some ways.

I completely understand why some choose to be very strict, and I also understand that for those people contamination of their foods (for example, in non-designated friers) can make them sick, and absolutely if someone cooking for you buys food that will physically make you sick, I completely understand why that makes it very complicated, and why it's important that non-strict vegans don't make it harder.

However, I make my choices based on what I think causes the least suffering to animals in the aggregate, and I think that this happens when a larger group of people make more vegan choices. This will increase the availability of vegan products overall, and will make it easier for strict vegans to be strict. It also will have the greatest impact on the industry.

What I will say is that I'm very careful about who I eat what around. When I'm around people who I don't know very well and have only had short conversations about veganism with, I absolutely don't do things like put milk in my coffee around them. If it's a situation of hospitality and I haven't self-identified as vegan in advance (which is rare, but happens every once in a while because life is complicated), I won't always have the conversation with people if there's nothing else that I can eat around (because I don't want to make someone feel badly and they don't necessarily know that I'm vegan in the first place). I would never self-identify as vegan in a restaurant and then have a bakery product or dairy. However, I have very in-depth conversations with a lot of people about veganism, and they understand that the choices I make, although few and far between, are done for specific reasons and they also know that many vegans do choose to be very strict.

I don't like labels, but considering how passionate I am about vegan food, considering how much I cook it, share it with others, talk about it, and spread awareness, I DO call myself a vegan--both to myself, and often in public situations if I think it's appropriate (certainly not while I've got milk in my coffee if I'm talking to someone for the first time). I think it's really important to have conversations with people about abstaining from meat, eggs, and dairy, but please understand that this does not mean that I'm not VERY careful to make sure that the people I interact with do not have a faulty understanding of what veganism is, for the exact reason you mentioned.

Ultimately, I feel more comfortable and the people around me are more comfortable when I am occasionally flexible, and I think that does a LOT to promote veganism in general. I've found that when I'm not flexible, occasions often end up revolving around me and my eating habits, and people often find that kind of distasteful and self-absorbed of me and associate being vegan with being self-absorbed, and so I try to temper that by keeping things in perspective. (The birthday girl does not need to choose a restaurant around me. The server at that restaurant should be focusing on her, not me. The conversation should be about the birthday girl, not my veganism. I will order the best approximation I can off the menu, but the bread *might* have egg.)

This has been my personal experience, and although I really respect why you feel as you do, I really would hope that you'll reconsider being so harsh about labeling "vegan" or "not a vegan". I think it kind of undermines what we're all hoping for, which is that this lifestyle becomes more popular, that people are healthier, the environment is healthier, and fewer and fewer animals suffer with each year that passes.
 
Hmm. I understand where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree in some ways.

I completely understand why some choose to be very strict, and I also understand that for those people contamination of their foods (for example, in non-designated friers) can make them sick, and absolutely if someone cooking for you buys food that will physically make you sick, I completely understand why that makes it very complicated, and why it's important that non-strict vegans don't make it harder.

However, I make my choices based on what I think causes the least suffering to animals in the aggregate, and I think that this happens when a larger group of people make more vegan choices. This will increase the availability of vegan products overall, and will make it easier for strict vegans to be strict. It also will have the greatest impact on the industry.

What I will say is that I'm very careful about who I eat what around. When I'm around people who I don't know very well and have only had short conversations about veganism with, I absolutely don't do things like put milk in my coffee around them. If it's a situation of hospitality and I haven't self-identified as vegan in advance (which is rare, but happens every once in a while because life is complicated), I won't always have the conversation with people if there's nothing else that I can eat around (because I don't want to make someone feel badly and they don't necessarily know that I'm vegan in the first place). I would never self-identify as vegan in a restaurant and then have a bakery product or dairy. However, I have very in-depth conversations with a lot of people about veganism, and they understand that the choices I make, although few and far between, are done for specific reasons and they also know that many vegans do choose to be very strict.

I don't like labels, but considering how passionate I am about vegan food, considering how much I cook it, share it with others, talk about it, and spread awareness, I DO call myself a vegan--both to myself, and often in public situations if I think it's appropriate (certainly not while I've got milk in my coffee if I'm talking to someone for the first time). I think it's really important to have conversations with people about abstaining from meat, eggs, and dairy, but please understand that this does not mean that I'm not VERY careful to make sure that the people I interact with do not have a faulty understanding of what veganism is, for the exact reason you mentioned.

Ultimately, I feel more comfortable and the people around me are more comfortable when I am occasionally flexible, and I think that does a LOT to promote veganism in general. I've found that when I'm not flexible, occasions often end up revolving around me and my eating habits, and people often find that kind of distasteful and self-absorbed of me and associate being vegan with being self-absorbed, and so I try to temper that by keeping things in perspective. (The birthday girl does not need to choose a restaurant around me. The server at that restaurant should be focusing on her, not me. The conversation should be about the birthday girl, not my veganism. I will order the best approximation I can off the menu, but the bread *might* have egg.)

This has been my personal experience, and although I really respect why you feel as you do, I really would hope that you'll reconsider being so harsh about labeling "vegan" or "not a vegan". I think it kind of undermines what we're all hoping for, which is that this lifestyle becomes more popular, that people are healthier, the environment is healthier, and fewer and fewer animals suffer with each year that passes.

Here's the thing - we're not all hoping for the same thing.

We don't all feel the same way you do. That's fine, what makes the world go round and all. However, this is NOT, to a great many, dare I say most of us, about 'strict' or 'flexible.'

They're words, they have meanings.

I know a moron (in far more ways than this), online who identifies as vegan because he believes in veganism and goes on about healthy foods and juices and etc., and eats pork and beef nd etc, if they're "natural" and not previously frozen and he says he's vegan because he like, eats vegan things a lot and feels it's got an amorphous meaning.

You may be very careful about not pouring milk in your coffee in front of people you've told you were vegan but not gone through the whole schpiel, but do you really think a. everyone gets it, b. all the other people you tell that this is ok to do, do the same?

It just spreads and it may not bother you but ask ANY actual vegan or vegetarian and you'll get more than one story of people giving them food that has things they do not eat in it because either they didn't get it, or because well, what's the big deal, it's just a little X.

If it doesn't bother YOU to have animal products, fine (this is how to tell you're not a vegan, heh). It does bother other people, a great deal. It doesn't have to be fatal for them to expect to not have it.

No, of course someone's event isn't about the guests. That has nothing to do with someone talking to the waiter taking their order and asking for what the place has that's appropriate. If there's nothing, then fine. If there's just plain salad, fine. But expecting people who actually are vegan to say 'well it's not important ...' is... not ok, imo. That's what this inaccuracy breeds, waitstaff who just say 'uhm yeah, it's got no animal products' and then 10 minutes later say 'well, I mean it has butter and egg but everything does, right? It's not a big deal.'

We do not share the same goals.

They're words with actual meaning. I mean would it be ok if someone said 'well, I'm an orthodox Jew, I keep kosher' and then eat bacon if it happened to be around? Or to say 'I'm allergic to onions! I can't have onions!' and then eat some onion rings because 'well, I don't like raw onions or sauteed but fried I like so I'm flexible' - it makes waitstaff, chefs, everyone, not believe people with actual allergies, same as the veg*** problem.

I can't stop you, obviously, but as someone who has had countless 'no, I don't eat chicken... or fish... etc.' conversations because of this, it's irksome.
 
Here's the thing - we're not all hoping for the same thing.

Point taken. But honestly, is it ok to say that we agree to disagree? I don't want to weigh down this thread, but I think this is obviously incredibly important to both of us in our own ways. Just as the word "vegan" means something to you, it means something to me, too. My reasons are about ethics, and I've put a lot of thought into them, and so I think the adjective of "vegan" to describe a food, meal, lifestyle choices, supermarket purchasing decision, etc., is just as important as the noun "vegan", which describes a person. Yes, words have meaning, but please give me the benefit of the doubt here that I understand who vegans are.

I think if we were face to face having this conversation I'm sure it would take us some time, but we'd reach some common ground, and your points have reminded me how important it is to be as thoughtful, vigilant, and strict as I can be. Similarly, I'd hope that my points might shift your perspective a little bit, too. I think online can be a really difficult forum, but let's suffice it to say that this is really important to both of us, and let the thread be about finding support, comparing recipes, cookbooks, products, etc., rather than our specific philosophical differences.
 
Point taken. But honestly, is it ok to say that we agree to disagree? I don't want to weigh down this thread, but I think this is obviously incredibly important to both of us in our own ways. Just as the word "vegan" means something to you, it means something to me, too. My reasons are about ethics, and I've put a lot of thought into them, and so I think the adjective of "vegan" to describe a food, meal, lifestyle choices, supermarket purchasing decision, etc., is just as important as the noun "vegan", which describes a person. Yes, words have meaning, but please give me the benefit of the doubt here that I understand who vegans are.

I think if we were face to face having this conversation I'm sure it would take us some time, but we'd reach some common ground, and your points have reminded me how important it is to be as thoughtful, vigilant, and strict as I can be. Similarly, I'd hope that my points might shift your perspective a little bit, too. I think online can be a really difficult forum, but let's suffice it to say that this is really important to both of us, and let the thread be about finding support, comparing recipes, cookbooks, products, etc., rather than our specific philosophical differences.

Well we have no choice, as we're not going to agree, heh.

I appreciate the civil approach, honestly. I still though... decades of the above conversations have left me perhaps less amenable than I might otherwise be.

Can't help it though - it doesn't mean something to you and something to me. It simply means something. I can say a chair is sorta a turtle, still a chair.

vegan adjective/ˈviː.gən/
Definition
not eating, using or including any animal products
a vegan diet


vegan noun/ˈviː.gən/
Definition
a person who does not eat or use any animal products, such as meat, fish, eggs, cheese or leather.

I know you know what they mean, just sayin'.
 
vegan adjective/ˈviː.gən/
Definition
not eating, using or including any animal products
a vegan diet


vegan noun/ˈviː.gən/
Definition
a person who does not eat or use any animal products, such as meat, fish, eggs, cheese or leather.

::Sigh:: I understand.

But can't you see how the very nature of an adjective is that you can apply it to different nouns? A non-vegan can still choose to prepare a vegan meal. Or a non-vegan can make a vegan decision when they choose to buy soy milk at the grocery store. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the reason that soy milk isso widely available ISN'T because of vegans, it's because of non-vegans who have chosen to adopt the vegan product in their household. According to your logic, this would be like saying that someone who lives a "healthy" lifestyle is no longer healthy the moment that they have a single unhealthy food. Language is complicated, it's not black or white, just like the issues aren't black and white, either.

Whenever you say that a person can or cannot use a word to describe themselves, you get into really touchy territory. It's as true with veganism as it is around issues of religion, sexual identity, race, etc. etc.. Self identification is a really powerful thing, and challenging this does honestly have the potential to be really incendiary and really hurtful. I understand feeling jaded after years of having these conversations, but veganism is really on an upswing in the past couple of years, and for a lot of sincere reasons. I'm a part of that wave, for sure, in that I began last October. I think a lot of positive things can come from this, and I honestly just hope that we can stay constructive. Just because it's new for some people doesn't automatically make it a fad, or not the real McCoy. Obviously I'm up responding to this at 2:20 in the morning because this is an issue that's really important to me.
 
::Sigh:: I understand.

But can't you see how the very nature of an adjective is that you can apply it to different nouns? A non-vegan can still choose to prepare a vegan meal. Or a non-vegan can make a vegan decision when they choose to buy soy milk at the grocery store. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the reason that soy milk isso widely available ISN'T because of vegans, it's because of non-vegans who have chosen to adopt the vegan product in their household. According to your logic, this would be like saying that someone who lives a "healthy" lifestyle is no longer healthy the moment that they have a single unhealthy food. Language is complicated, it's not black or white, just like the issues aren't black and white, either.

Whenever you say that a person can or cannot use a word to describe themselves, you get into really touchy territory. It's as true with veganism as it is around issues of religion, sexual identity, race, etc. etc.. Self identification is a really powerful thing, and challenging this does honestly have the potential to be really incendiary and really hurtful. I understand feeling jaded after years of having these conversations, but veganism is really on an upswing in the past couple of years, and for a lot of sincere reasons. I'm a part of that wave, for sure, in that I began last October. I think a lot of positive things can come from this, and I honestly just hope that we can stay constructive. Just because it's new for some people doesn't automatically make it a fad, or not the real McCoy. Obviously I'm up responding to this at 2:20 in the morning because this is an issue that's really important to me.


I get that ...

And sure, a non-vegan can prepare a vegan meal or orer a vegan cupcake. You can eat Kosher cookies - doesn't make you a Jew though, if you see where I'm making the distinction.

I get what you're saying about how other people choose to label themselves and yes, it's a sticky wicket I agree. Though I think there's a difference between trying to force specificity on the inspecific an holding to what is specific.

Like... the one-drop rule. There's no actual, specific definition for being of a specific race (save some native American rules for specific purpose). Thus to define for someone else whether they're black or white or whatever is making up the specificity.

However, like, Jew, has a specific defiinition (I'm using it for the analogy, not meaning to be religious or get into a religious thing). If someone not born to a Jewish mother or raised in the faith, who did NOT convert, were to go around saying they were Jewish, but flexible, and doing stuff that was decidedly in opposition to basic tenets of the faith - it'd irk most Jews, I'm guessing. If they were sitting at a shabbos dinner with a bacon cheeseburger, using their iphone, trying to defend that with 'we all want the same thing in the end and I want to spread the word of Judaism,' I don't think it'd help. If they did it in a restaurant for shabbos inner, other people will then have that notion, even if the person explains, etc.

I realize it's an exreme example and etc., but I'm casting about for something analagous.

Maybe it's me, but I don't think of soy milk as a vegan prouct. I mean obviously it is, but so's most spaghetti with marinara. I don't think people eating that is a sign of increase veganism, but people not thinking of it as vegan. They think it' "healthy" or "tastes better (what the ads focus on), or is hip and new, like Tang was an OJ alternative.

Oreos are vegan. I don't think that's why most people buy them, nor do I think people would consier it embracing a vegan lifestyle if they buy more Oreos, if you see what I mean.

Also, not for nuttin, but I don't feel jaded, I feel peeved. It annoys the crap out of me.
 
cornflake said:
Also, not for nuttin, but I don't feel jaded, I feel peeved. It annoys the crap out of me.

Fair enough. I've said what I've got to say, I assume vice versa, and we do just disagree because we have different points of view. You're annoyed, I'm a little hurt, let's just leave it. Have a good night!
 


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