The CMs were Worried About Alligator Problem

[STLstone]

Personally, when I go on a trip, I try to learn a little about where I am going before I get there. This is partly because I might miss something interesting, and partly to alert myself to any hazards there might be. For example, I wouldn't try to climb Mount Everest without informing myself of necessary precautions to take, such as the need for oxygen, awareness of avalanches,etc. Likewise for Florida. There are nature trails in Florida with no warnings at all, just a trail. One, in particular, is a panther reserve. Would I hike there at night? Not on your life. I see alligators all the time in ditches along the Florida roads. Are there signs there? No. One while wading in Ft Myers Beach, I was stung by a stingray. Hurt like crazy, but, after appropriate first aid, I didn't even need any medical attention. Part of the difficulty is that we all need to take personal responsibility for our own safety and that of our loved ones.

None of those equate to visiting a luxury resort with a man-made beach. You're comparing apples to coyotes.

 

[STLstone]

Since there have been so many years and visitors who have not been affected by dangerous wild life, one of two things must have occurred here--

1. An isolated random event , or
2. A change has occurred increasing the likely hood of the event.

For all who need someone to land the blame on for whatever personal reason, consider the change that has occurred in the last year or so-- the increased or actually probably the beginning of alligators in the lake being fed regularly by guests. That is what most likely caused this event.

I'm not sure how isolated or random the encounters with alligators have been. If you look at the origination of this thread, it seems like there have been several close calls (if these stories are to be believed).

Did Disney do anything to mitigate these encounters?

Either answer is probably bad because:
a) no they did nothing even though there were several close calls
or
b) yes, of course, they've been trying to control alligators for years because they knew they were dangerous - but not dangerous enough to stop renting jet skis or put up a sign about the danger on the beach, that they built, and encouraged out-of-state/out-of-country visitors to play on. (remember, smart people know, you don't even have to be in the water to be attacked).

 

[JenLT]

Alligators apparently can come very quickly and forcefully out of the water and outrun a human for 20-30 feet on land. People need to be aware of the possible dangers and then they can make an informed decision. Disney built an attraction - and that is what the beach is, a man-made attraction - and encouraged people to play there. They also had water activities nearby. They gave no warning that there was danger. All of these facts lend one to believe the beach is completely safe when it is not. They had a sign that said no swimming - what about warning you to stay away from the edge? That 20-30 feet of the beach is in danger of attack from alligators? How far away from the water are the chairs and hammocks they provide?

I don't think it is Disney's fault that there are alligators. They had a responsibility to tell guests of the danger. Is it their fault that the toddler was killed? I think if they had had a sign or warning for the guests the little boy would be alive. Does that make them liable? I have no idea. But if they had acted, that child would likely not be dead. I don't believe many people would let a toddler go by the edge of the water knowing the alligators are a danger.

Why don't they warn guests that feeding the alligators makes them dangerous (is it even legal?)

I'm angry at Disney for not warning guests because now I have to wonder what else aren't they telling guests? Are there other dangers that they don't warn you about?

 

[NYUBwayBaby]

Why don't they warn guests that feeding the alligators makes them dangerous (is it even legal?)

I'm angry at Disney for not warning guests because now I have to wonder what else aren't they telling guests? Are there other dangers that they don't warn you about?

No, feeding gators is not legal in Florida. There are plenty of signs saying don't feed the wildlife. But apparently people don't think the rules apply to everyone.

As for other dangers? Other drivers, falling snakes, falling tree branches, potential flying turtles? Honestly, I can think of nothing to worry about and I'm a person who, when I ride a roller coaster, pictures every way things can go wrong and how I'll die. Still ride them, though. Gotta keep living.

 

[kymom99]

I have never been told of dangers when checking into a disney resort. But even if they did warn at check-in, what about guests who arent lodging there? People visit resorts to watch fireworks, eat at restaurants, take breaks, etc. How would they be warned? It seems to me that signage is the most logical solution.

I am not from florida. I know gaters live there. I went on a boat ride in Myakka Park in Sarasota to see some. However, if I am to be honest, I never thought about running into any at WDW. I had the idea that they were removed from the waters. I guess I was ignorant to the thought that they could get back in despite Disney's efforts to keep them out. We stayed at POFQ and CBR and were near the water frequently. (Near, not in.) I guess I should have been more cautious, but as stated previously, I was on vacation. I let my guard down. We sat on chairs on the beach at CBR. it never occurred to me to be afraid. I could research the dangers but gators would not be the only thing on that list. A gentle reminder would just be wise, in my opinion. I think the idea is that people put a lot of trust in Disney.

 

[HopperFan]

Okay. Corrected again.

Clearly, Eastern NE is somewhat different from the western part of the state. Haven't been in Omaha for many years so admittedly don't know lakes near there.

I often went in lakes in Western KS and NE at twilight or after dark and never encountered anything nasty. Maybe just lucky or possibly due to the much drier climate out there. We always carried flashlights since those lakes were illuminated by little more than moonlight. Perhaps a deterrent? Dunno.

Again, other than rattlesnakes, sounds more like vermin primarily found near eastern lakes than those I'm familiar with. There simply aren't beavers where I lived in Northwest and Southwest KS. No trees to speak of. Virtually none near lakes unless planted and carefully maintained at picnic areas or admin buildings. Same with vegetation in the water unless it's dead trees from when the lake filled.

But, you do make the point that there are more dangerous critters at some lakes in the Plains States than others.

Our family is in the middle of Nebraska and Eastern Nebraska. I guess my point was, every place we live has hazards in nature and it is important to just be aware of your environment. Even if you aren't familiar with the hazards of the new place, think about what is around you and what you see.

Less than 2 feet from shore that lake if solid with vegetation, highly visible, waving in the water and sticking through the surface. I freak out over snakes so all I see is snake heaven in that water.

It is so sad and I can't imagine what they are going through and will always go through. I think part of all this is the VERY VERY rare accidents are the ones that make the news and stand out in our minds but there are so many children lost to accidents that sadly are very common ... but no one gets upset/excited/demanding something be done.

 

[dlavender]

No, feeding gators is not legal in Florida. There are plenty of signs saying don't feed the wildlife. But apparently people don't think the rules apply to everyone.

As for other dangers? Other drivers, falling snakes, falling tree branches, potential flying turtles? Honestly, I can think of nothing to worry about and I'm a person who, when I ride a roller coaster, pictures every way things can go wrong and how I'll die. Still ride them, though. Gotta keep living.

Are there teams dedicated to removing falling snakes? Flying turtles?

 

[rteetz]

No, feeding gators is not legal in Florida. There are plenty of signs saying don't feed the wildlife. But apparently people don't think the rules apply to everyone.

As for other dangers? Other drivers, falling snakes, falling tree branches, potential flying turtles? Honestly, I can think of nothing to worry about and I'm a person who, when I ride a roller coaster, pictures every way things can go wrong and how I'll die. Still ride them, though. Gotta keep living.

Feeding alligators intentionally in Florida is illegal.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...tring=&URL=Ch0372/Sec667.htm&StatuteYear=2006

 

[fairy oma]

No water moccasins in Kansas? Rattlers or copperheads? Maybe you are just used to those so you don't think about them. After all, how often does someone get hurt by one--- every 25 years or so?

I grew up in KS and we camped all over the Midwest. To your question about water moccasins (cottonmouths), rattlers and copperheads we have them everywhere even our local parks and backyards in Shawnee Mission. People are bitten by them every summer, especially by copperheads and we still partake in the parks and lakes in the region.
The consumer does bear some responsibility in educating themselves wherever they vacation. This is a tragedy but signage or fences are not going to stop people from not following the rules if they think it does not apply to them. We were taught as young children camping that "No Swimming" signs meant you do not get in the water no matter what and that included wading. We were never told why there was no swimming we just followed the rules...it could have been from an unhealthy algae bloom, bacteria or even because it was the birthing season for copperheads. Being from the Midwest is not an excuse for not following the rules.

I am sure to the day those parents draw their last breath they will second guess their decision to let their precious child wade in the water at dusk. Prayers to them they can move forward through this tragic time.

 

[fairy oma]

Okay. I stand corrected.

I grew up in far Western KS and only visited the eastern half now and then, mostly to go to ballgames at KU or K State.

Guess the wildlife info site I checked had it wrong about only Douglas Co. having a notable number of copperheads.

All I know is that they weren't a concern in the dry prairies of the western two-thirds of the state where I lived my entire life until eight years ago.

 

[fairy oma]

I grew up in Emporia and camped as far south as El Dorado and Toronto and as far west as Wilson Lake and we saw copperheads everywhere. We would see water moccasins though in KS they are called cottonmouths around every little creek and river while fishing growing up. But we are now so far off the original topic let's go back to the real subject of this particular board.

 

[Liljo22]

As the article said; In 1986, an alligator bit a boy at a pond at Disney's Fort Wilderness campground. The boy suffered knee and thigh injuries. The parents later sued the resort, alleging Disney failed to warn visitors."


That being said, after even one incident like the one that happened in the 80's I believe it was negligent on Disney's part not to include SPECIFIC sign warnings - No Swimming no way implies - watch out as your child could get bit by an alligator at the water's edge!!! No swimming also does not imply you can't walk in the water. I predict a multi-million dollar lawsuit in the making - not that all the money in the world could comfort that poor family - their pain and loss will never end. Negligence - yes especially considering how nearby non-Disney hotels had specific sign warnings for alligators & snakes. Sorry, you can't expect out of state or out of country guests to know about these types of dangers.

Disney continued to allow swimming in the lake after the 1986 attack. The no swimming signs are not due to alligators.

 

[Liljo22]

Additionally, how many people believe it is safe simply because Disney encourages the use of the beaches (did they create them too?), has walkways right along the water, etc..? I always thought if it wasn't safe, Disney would take precautions which would include telling you of the danger. Now you really have to wonder - practically every resort has tons of water and you walk right next to it in the evening coming back from the parks. People will tell you that alligators are slow on land but I've been watching some youtube videos of them and they're not that slow. There's also one of an alligator climbing a six foot fence. They can come right out of any of the waterways and lakes at any time they want. If I'd realized it, I would never have been standing by the water.

FWC says that the chance of an alligator attack in the state of Florida is 1 in over 2 million. Given that Disney has programs in place to remove alligators and the amount of people that visit WDW, the chance of one happening on Disney grounds is far less.

Also some wrong information in your post. Smaller gators can pick up a little speed but can only run in a straight line. Larger gators(bigger than 6 ft) that would be able to attack bigger prey can not run fast. Their tiny legs can not support their weight. All their power is in the tail. Also gators do not attack prey on land. If on land, they will become defensive and swing their body in hopes are knocking you back or catching you with a lunge. An attack will take place by the water line where they can use their tail to thrust out of the water.

 

[Liljo22]

Inside Edition ran this video. Article attached.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ay-oblivious-guests-ride-Splash-Mountain.html

I'm sorry, when you have gators inches from your rides, you have a major problem on your hands.

That gator is about 3 ft long and is no danger to guests. It was probably moved right after this video.

 

[JenLT]

FWC says that the chance of an alligator attack in the state of Florida is 1 in over 2 million. Given that Disney has programs in place to remove alligators and the amount of people that visit WDW, the chance of one happening on Disney grounds is far less.

Also some wrong information in your post. Smaller gators can pick up a little speed but can only run in a straight line. Larger gators(bigger than 6 ft) that would be able to attack bigger prey can not run fast. Their tiny legs can not support their weight. All their power is in the tail. Also gators do not attack prey on land. If on land, they will become defensive and swing their body in hopes are knocking you back or catching you with a lunge. An attack will take place by the water line where they can use their tail to thrust out of the water.

Well, the rarity of the attack certainly is no comfort to the family whose child died. Sure, it's not common. It wouldn't have been difficult to warn guests and it could have saved a life. It could have saved a family from having to leave Disney without their baby and never seeing him again.

As for the information in my post, I'm just going by what Jack Hanna said in an interview about the alligators. Previously, I'd thought that alligators couldn't run well on land and were slow. So I didn't think there was much danger from them if you didn't go in the water (which I never would). He said they "come out of the water like a bullet" and that they "can outrun any human for 20 to 30 feet" as well as if you want to take a picture of one stay at least 50 or 60 feet back from them. As far as I am aware he is an expert on the subject. My point is even if you did not ignore the no swimming sign and stood near the water, there was unknown danger.

Disney previously had a problem with people not knowing about fastpass and not understanding how things worked at their park. If people aren't going to research even that before a trip, Disney knew they weren't studying the wildlife to figure out their own safety. Part of the reason for staying at a resort and not in the middle of the woods.

Don't feed the wildlife is different than saying feeding alligators is against the law and makes them aggressive against humans. I see handicap parking signs with the penalty listed, no littering signs along roads with the penalty listed etc. Why not tell guests? I'm sure many have no clue its illegal. Disney should be telling them NO, warning them ahead of time, and enforcing the law on their property. Those guests who were feeding the alligators helped create the situation where a toddler was killed. Many CM's knew guests were doing it, so Disney is partly to blame for it happening.

 

[Jess_S]

I'm not sure how isolated or random the encounters with alligators have been. If you look at the origination of this thread, it seems like there have been several close calls (if these stories are to be believed).

Did Disney do anything to mitigate these encounters?

Either answer is probably bad because:
a) no they did nothing even though there were several close calls
or
b) yes, of course, they've been trying to control alligators for years because they knew they were dangerous - but not dangerous enough to stop renting jet skis or put up a sign about the danger on the beach, that they built, and encouraged out-of-state/out-of-country visitors to play on. (remember, smart people know, you don't even have to be in the water to be attacked).

Anecdotally, I think that choice b may not be far off. I did the college program more than a decade ago and we were told their were gators on property. We were also told that it was the job of specific cast members to keep an eye on the gators and prevent harm to guests. I do believe that Disney thought their monitoring and removal efforts were sufficient. Although the company has no compunctions about charging through the nose for the Disney experience, nothing in my dealings with the company as an employee or guest leads me to believe that they would sacrifice x number of guests lives or safety to achieve a savings on signage.

I've posted before that I am not convinced that Disney was "negligent" in the legal sense of that term (i.e. I'm not sure that they breached a specific duty to guests such that they are legally liable for this poor boy's death) and that remains my view. From the research I've done, mere knowledge of gators on your property doesn't create legal liability if there's an attack. I would love to see a balanced new article on this that covers both the plaintiff and defense arguments so that I can get a better understanding of what types of acts or omissions by Disney actually would lead to liability.

 

[dlavender]

Well, the rarity of the attack certainly is no comfort to the family whose child died. Sure, it's not common. It wouldn't have been difficult to warn guests and it could have saved a life. It could have saved a family from having to leave Disney without their baby and never seeing him again.

As for the information in my post, I'm just going by what Jack Hanna said in an interview about the alligators. Previously, I'd thought that alligators couldn't run well on land and were slow. So I didn't think there was much danger from them if you didn't go in the water (which I never would). He said they "come out of the water like a bullet" and that they "can outrun any human for 20 to 30 feet" as well as if you want to take a picture of one stay at least 50 or 60 feet back from them. As far as I am aware he is an expert on the subject. My point is even if you did not ignore the no swimming sign and stood near the water, there was unknown danger.

Disney previously had a problem with people not knowing about fastpass and not understanding how things worked at their park. If people aren't going to research even that before a trip, Disney knew they weren't studying the wildlife to figure out their own safety. Part of the reason for staying at a resort and not in the middle of the woods.

Don't feed the wildlife is different than saying feeding alligators is against the law and makes them aggressive against humans. I see handicap parking signs with the penalty listed, no littering signs along roads with the penalty listed etc. Why not tell guests? I'm sure many have no clue its illegal. Disney should be telling them NO, warning them ahead of time, and enforcing the law on their property. Those guests who were feeding the alligators helped create the situation where a toddler was killed. Many CM's knew guests were doing it, so Disney is partly to blame for it happening.

Great post!

To add, that statistic is being thrown around a lot, like it alone was a safety net. As I've posted before, someone who never goes outside has a 0 chance of an alligator attack. Someone riding Space Mountain has a 0 chance. Someone standing on the edge of a pond with 5 alligators in it, has a much much much higher chance. That statistic is being heralded without being understood. I do data/reporting analytics everyday. I always caution managers from using strictly the analysis. They are great for highlighting problems, and to show what needs to be looked into a little deeper. They are a tool. Not an end all solution.

 

[JenLT]

Duplicate, but I don't know where my previous post went?

 

[JenLT]

I've posted before that I am not convinced that Disney was "negligent" in the legal sense of that term (i.e. I'm not sure that they breached a specific duty to guests such that they are legally liable for this poor boy's death) and that remains my view. From the research I've done, mere knowledge of gators on your property doesn't create legal liability if there's an attack. I would love to see a balanced new article on this that covers both the plaintiff and defense arguments so that I can get a better understanding of what types of acts or omissions by Disney actually would lead to liability.

They don't have to have been legally liable for their behavior to have been wrong and to lose the trust of their guests. I agree that a well-balanced article would be interesting. I would like to know what types of acts would lead to liability too. Though I do think that Disney was at fault for not warning guests, I don't think they are at fault for having alligators on their property. And I'm sure everyone has different opinions on the subject. Now that the tragedy has happened, I'm glad they're putting up signs. They should start enforcing the law as well.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Personally, when I go on a trip, I try to learn a little about where I am going before I get there. This is partly because I might miss something interesting, and partly to alert myself to any hazards there might be. For example, I wouldn't try to climb Mount Everest without informing myself of necessary precautions to take, such as the need for oxygen, awareness of avalanches,etc. Likewise for Florida. There are nature trails in Florida with no warnings at all, just a trail. One, in particular, is a panther reserve. Would I hike there at night? Not on your life. I see alligators all the time in ditches along the Florida roads. Are there signs there? No. One while wading in Ft Myers Beach, I was stung by a stingray. Hurt like crazy, but, after appropriate first aid, I didn't even need any medical attention. Part of the difficulty is that we all need to take personal responsibility for our own safety and that of our loved ones.

I'm generally on the side of disney not really being at fault here..2 attacks in a 45 year history to me says its not a major issue, unless something has changed with the way things are handled lately, this was a tragic accident, and sometimes accidents are just that, accidents.

To those making the comments that people should learn about the area before coming to disney, im not making an excuse, but I think a lot of people who go to disney are researching what they are going to do when they get there. what rides they are going to ride, food to eat, where to stay, and maybe even some history of wdw.

Loving disney as much as I do, I've looked for a ton of stuff on the internet to learn as much of the backstory of WDW as i can. I just enjoy that kind of stuff. Not once have a i googled "gators and WDW", and yes I've even googled accidents and incidents at disney to see how dangerous it can be.

I know they are there, I've seen them myself. We saw one last August in MK on the river in front of TSI.

I struggle to blame anyone on this, I don't blame the parents and I have a hard time blaming disney as well because of the "No Swimming" signs. Im at a loss here. but we need to remember that accidents do happen.