Testing is Destroying Our Schools!

[FlightlessDuck]

See and now there's a push in my area for Pre K in public schools.

I disagree with this. I think children need to be with their parents until kindy age 5/6. Mine were well prepared when they started Kindergarten. There was a lot that we easily taught them at home in those early years.

Studies have shown repeatedly that Head Start helps disadvantaged children succeed in schools. I don't see why we would want children to NOT go to Pre-K.

 

[monkeybug]

I agree with you. The problem is all kids progress at different rates. Should someone that's ready to start school at 5 have to wait two years to do so? Should someone who's NOT ready to start school at 7 be allowed to wait?

They still go to school before 7 in Finland, but it's very different than our kindergartens. I don't know 100%, but my guess is it's more like what our Kindergartens used to be. Hear some stories, learn to follow directions, smash some playdough, tag at recess. They only go for half days until 7 though. My friend says they focus on concepts in those early years, not memorizing facts. Her family moved to America when her daughter was in Kindergarten. Even though she learned to speak English here, and was in a top school in an excellent school district, she was light years ahead of her peers (one of whom was my daughter). When they returned to Finland she was very behind. I don't know what those Fins do in those formative years but if they bottled it, I'd buy it!
The thing is that while you can say a child is ready for school because they can read, or add and subtract, that really shouldn't be our measure for readiness. Critical thinking, listening skills, and curiosity are much more important to life long learning (and in today's world probably success in a career too) then knowing things. Those thinking skills come from the freedom to play and explore, something our kids today are getting precious little time for. In our district kids get on the bus at 8:00 and get home at around 4-4:30. Even in Kindergarten. Not a lot of time for mud pies or tree climbing with those hours.

 

[monkeybug]

Studies have shown repeatedly that Head Start helps disadvantaged children succeed in schools. I don't see why we would want children to NOT go to Pre-K.

I think a lot of that would depend on home life. If a kid is at home parked in front of the tv all day, then yes, send them to pre k. If the child is at home playing? Painting, pouring water on plants, building ramps for cars and trucks, making a mess in the kitchen...then they are probably better off at home. (depending on the pre k program)

 

[Southernmiss]

I think a lot of that would depend on home life. If a kid is at home parked in front of the tv all day, then yes, send them to pre k. If the child is at home playing? Painting, pouring water on plants, building ramps for cars and trucks, making a mess in the kitchen...then they are probably better off at home.

It all goes back to parents being parents.

I see those early years as prime parenting time. So many opportunities of things to do with small children who love the personal interaction and learning at that age. I don't want people shirking their responsibilities because someone else will do it.

 

[I Love Pluto]

Schools are cutting music & art programs. They are limiting sports - taking out some that our kids enjoyed.

What ever happened to the theory of the "Well Rounded Student"?????

Imagine what our college kids will be like in 10 to 12 years. They will know nothing about Art Appreciation or Music. Skills in Music, Art, & Sports will be lacking. But - they will be able to fill in the circle in front of A, B, C, or D completely!

What a world!

 

[Piper]

It all goes back to parents being parents.

I see those early years as prime parenting time. So many opportunities of things to do with small children who love the personal interaction and learning at that age. I don't want people shirking their responsibilities because someone else will do it.

That would be great if everyone interacted with their child. I taught Pre-K in public schools for years. Most of the kids qualified because they didn't speak English, but some qualified by income. One year I had an income qualified child who only spoke one word and maybe 2 word sentences...even with the other children. I watched him carefully thinking that he may have hearing or speech difficulties. Within a few weeks, his sentence length increased. He still didn't know colors, shapes, even how much 2 of something was etc. I called his parents in for a conference.

Both parents showed up. During the conference, I was telling the parents some things they could do with their child (such as counting out the forks for dinner, talking about the colors of objects such as his clothes, food, etc.) and the father said, "In other words, you want us to do your job." We didn't know that the principal had been doing a "walk through" and stopped outside my door to listen in. She stepped into the room and said to the father, "No sir. We just want you to do your job of being a parent!" I could never have said that because I would have risked being deemed rude and being fired.....but she could and did!

I later discovered that the father abused the mother and child and neither one of them ever talked to the child unless they were giving him commands. (I did report it when I found out and CPS did absolutely nothing!!!) But the mother left the father and went to a safe house. She had to change schools for him and I really hope she stayed away!!

 

[Southernmiss]

That would be great if everyone interacted with their child. I taught Pre-K in public schools for years. Most of the kids qualified because they didn't speak English, but some qualified by income. One year I had an income qualified child who only spoke one word and maybe 2 word sentences...even with the other children. I watched him carefully thinking that he may have hearing or speech difficulties. Within a few weeks, his sentence length increased. He still didn't know colors, shapes, even how much 2 of something was etc. I called his parents in for a conference.

Both parents showed up. During the conference, I was telling the parents some things they could do with their child (such as counting out the forks for dinner, talking about the colors of objects such as his clothes, food, etc.) and the father said, "In other words, you want us to do your job." We didn't know that the principal had been doing a "walk through" and stopped outside my door to listen in. She stepped into the room and said to the father, "No sir. We just want you to do your job of being a parent!" I could never have said that because I would have risked being deemed rude and being fired.....but she could and did!

I later discovered that the father abused the mother and child and neither one of them ever talked to the child unless they were giving him commands. (I did report it when I found out and CPS did absolutely nothing!!!) But the mother left the father and went to a safe house. She had to change schools for him and I really hope she stayed away!!

Situations like this are so very sad.

 

[monkeybug]

Schools are cutting music & art programs. They are limiting sports - taking out some that our kids enjoyed.

What ever happened to the theory of the "Well Rounded Student"?????

Imagine what our college kids will be like in 10 to 12 years. They will know nothing about Art Appreciation or Music. Skills in Music, Art, & Sports will be lacking. But - they will be able to fill in the circle in front of A, B, C, or D completely!

What a world!

So sad!
I think we have become way too focused on kids knowing the answers and not nearly focused enough on teaching them to ask questions. A kindergartner who knows how to read may sound like a great idea, but not if it comes at the price of a kindergartner who knows how to look at the world in wonder.
Our greatest inventors, and scientists weren't great because they knew so much, they were great because they were curious enough to ask, to wonder, and that gave them the knowledge and intelligence to find out.
Imagination, confidence, creativity, and curiosity are the things school should foster above ALL else. Learning the alphabet is easy for an otherwise able mind. Learning to look at the stars in the sky, wonder why they are there, and then go find out, is not.

 

[monkeybug]

That would be great if everyone interacted with their child. I taught Pre-K in public schools for years. Most of the kids qualified because they didn't speak English, but some qualified by income. One year I had an income qualified child who only spoke one word and maybe 2 word sentences...even with the other children. I watched him carefully thinking that he may have hearing or speech difficulties. Within a few weeks, his sentence length increased. He still didn't know colors, shapes, even how much 2 of something was etc. I called his parents in for a conference.

Both parents showed up. During the conference, I was telling the parents some things they could do with their child (such as counting out the forks for dinner, talking about the colors of objects such as his clothes, food, etc.) and the father said, "In other words, you want us to do your job." We didn't know that the principal had been doing a "walk through" and stopped outside my door to listen in. She stepped into the room and said to the father, "No sir. We just want you to do your job of being a parent!" I could never have said that because I would have risked being deemed rude and being fired.....but she could and did!

I later discovered that the father abused the mother and child and neither one of them ever talked to the child unless they were giving him commands. (I did report it when I found out and CPS did absolutely nothing!!!) But the mother left the father and went to a safe house. She had to change schools for him and I really hope she stayed away!!

Situations like this are exactly why I do think we need preschool! I just think it needs to be very different than most current preschools. (and I was a preschool teacher) I would send my kids to a montessori type preschool in a heartbeat! One where there are many things to learn and explore and the kids were free to do just that. Just enough structure to avoid chaos and build listening skills, not enough to quell natural curiosity.
One where they memorize the alphabet and are told what to do and when? One where they come home with 15 different teacher lead art projects a week? Not a chance. In my mind a kid who is at home and has no knowledge of the alphabet, how to count, or what color a stop sign is, but spends their day playing, is probably ahead of a kid who knows how to read but has no free time in their day. There are things developing during play that aren't measured on a test, and they are the most important!

 

[PollyannaMom]

I think you are absolutely right! If we wait until a child is ready to learn something, he or she will learn it quickly and confidently. If we push before that same child is ready, learning becomes slow and painful.

I agree with you. The problem is all kids progress at different rates. Should someone that's ready to start school at 5 have to wait two years to do so? Should someone who's NOT ready to start school at 7 be allowed to wait?

No, I don't think we have to hold the advanced kids back, or exclude the kids who aren't ready for academics, but could benefit from school in other ways. Though it's sometimes an unpopular opinion in education today, I think we should go back to sorting classes by ability.

We used to do that, starting much younger than we do now, but the problem was that a few kids got sorted incorrectly, put on a lower "track" than they needed to be, and they missed out on opportunities. But instead of fixing that specific problem by coming up with a way to correct the individual mistakes, we eliminated the whole system as flawed. However, I think is was the perceived problem, that different classes were somehow "unfair", that actually bothered people, so they scrapped common sense and made it look fair. But "fair" isn't blindly giving everybody the same thing - fair is doing the best you can to give everyone what they need, without taking it away from someone else.

So I think it's OK to enroll at 5, but group them by where they need to start. One class might be reading already, one might be learning letters and numbers, and another might not even start that right away. (The biggest challenge I see will be to get parents to accept that it's really OK for their child not to be in the fastest class.) If children are given appropriate challenges, they'll meet them - and school will be a place of discovery, not discouragement. And they'll get there, on their own time.

 

[Piper]

I always taught the way I wanted to teach. Although my team mates called me an "overachiever" because of the amount of time I put in and the things I did with my students, I never had a problem from a principal. I think that is because my students LEARNED!

About 3/4 of my students left Pre-k reading and writing. I didn't use text books. I just read regular books and I wrote with my students every day. We did a "morning message," wrote class books where each student made a page, I wrote stories with them, etc.

They loved to write. And many of their books and stories were better than those the kindergarten and first grade students wrote. (I had teachers from other grades come into my room on their off-periods a lot so they could observe. Each child worked at their own level and was never pressured to do more than they were ready to do.....but it is amazing how each child can contribute if they work with a friend on a project.

I even had kids who begged to write instead of going to the block center! One of my principals almost fainted when she heard the boy say, "Do I have to go to blocks? Can I get my folder and write instead?"

Their individual stories and books were put into our class library for them and other students to enjoy along with our class made books and the books I had read to the class. (Those who wrote sentences as well as those who just put the first letter to label a picture.) I had writing materials in every center from the very first day of class. I also had books in every center (that went with the materials in each one.)

When we read a book, we talked about what we were reading. We made connections to our lives, our families as well as other books we had read. We talked about the setting and the characters, the "problem" and how it was solved, we made predictions about what would happen next and we talked about other solutions to the problem.

Our word wall was made up of words the students wanted to know how to read and/or write. We played games with the word wall and students learned the words because they were meaningful to them.

I taught math the same way...through "games" or "playing" with them. I always "tried to trick" them--but of course they were so smart that they knew the answer. (Example: I put 7 marbles in my hand. I dropped 3 of them. How many are left in my hand? all right in front of them so they could see what I was doing and check for themselves.)

BTW--the kindergarten teachers used to fight over who would get the most of my kids when they left me.

 

[LisaR]

Studies have shown repeatedly that Head Start helps disadvantaged children succeed in schools. I don't see why we would want children to NOT go to Pre-K.

Not every child out there is disadvantaged or in need of free preschool due to their situation.

Edited:
I just Googled Head Start because I wanted to see how many kids use the program. I didn't expect to find a bunch of articles that talk about how ineffective the program is. I shouldn't be surprised, I guess. If anyone is interested, Google it (some of the articles were politically slanted or I would have posted them). I've only been reading for a few minutes, but I am starting to think we (The US) can't even get that part of education right. One study showed that some 3 y/o in the program were actually worse off than in the long run than those who were similarly disadvantaged and didn't do Head Start.

 

[sam_gordon]

So I think it's OK to enroll at 5, but group them by where they need to start. One class might be reading already, one might be learning letters and numbers, and another might not even start that right away. (The biggest challenge I see will be to get parents to accept that it's really OK for their child not to be in the fastest class.) If children are given appropriate challenges, they'll meet them - and school will be a place of discovery, not discouragement. And they'll get there, on their own time.

I do like that idea. I VAGUELY remember when I was in 3rd grade being put into an "advanced readers" group or something like that. There were 5-6(?) of us that either went into the 4th grade classroom or just had our desks together in the regular classroom. Either way, we got more advanced homework.

FWIW, my 1st grader this year and my 3rd grader last year (as a 2nd grader) got "advanced" spelling words... a different, more difficult list than the majority of the class. They weren't/aren't the only ones in the class with that list, so challenging only specific children can, and does, happen even now.

 

[sam_gordon]

Not every child out there is disadvantaged or in need of free preschool due to their situation.

Edited:
I just Googled Head Start because I wanted to see how many kids use the program. I didn't expect to find a bunch of articles that talk about how ineffective the program is. I shouldn't be surprised, I guess. If anyone is interested, Google it (some of the articles were politically slanted or I would have posted them). I've only been reading for a few minutes, but I am starting to think we (The US) can't even get that part of education right. One study showed that some 3 y/o in the program were actually worse off than in the long run than those who were similarly disadvantaged and didn't do Head Start.

DS got into Head Start. We had him tested because of behavior issues, but he got accepted because of speech issues. It did help his behavior, and his speech has improved (he still has speech lessons 4 years later).

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Not every child out there is disadvantaged or in need of free preschool due to their situation.

Edited:
I just Googled Head Start because I wanted to see how many kids use the program. I didn't expect to find a bunch of articles that talk about how ineffective the program is. I shouldn't be surprised, I guess. If anyone is interested, Google it (some of the articles were politically slanted or I would have posted them). I've only been reading for a few minutes, but I am starting to think we (The US) can't even get that part of education right. One study showed that some 3 y/o in the program were actually worse off than in the long run than those who were similarly disadvantaged and didn't do Head Start.

My brother's GF has worked in Head Start program for a few yrs. She was attacked and cussed out BY PRE-K STUDENTS many many times!!!

She recently moved back and got to quit that job. She is so grateful to be out of there. This was in a smallish town.

Sad, because she is a great person and a good teacher. She said the program is not a good one.

 

[deserrai]

I wish more parents would realize this. Education, real learning, is taking a back seat to practice testing and retesting and more retesting. We are no longer teaching. Please, don't complain to your school teachers or administrators, tell your legislators, because their attempts to hold teachers accountable is simply ruining your child's education. And test developers are enriching themselves at the expense of your child's welfare.

I could not agree more. And that is why my little one will be going to private school.

 

[LisaR]

DS got into Head Start. We had him tested because of behavior issues, but he got accepted because of speech issues. It did help his behavior, and his speech has improved (he still has speech lessons 4 years later).

I thought you had to be below poverty level to qualify for Head Start?

Why would our tax dollars pay for Head Start if you are going on cruises and to Disney? I'm truly not trying to be mean. It was always my impression that Head Start was for those that were truly disadvantaged. That was the exact word you used in your post that I originally quoted. I guess I really don't understand the Head Start program at all and the more I am reading, the less I am in favor of it. In my mind, I just found a few billion dollars the federal government could put to better use.

 

[sam_gordon]

I thought you had to be below poverty level to qualify for Head Start?

Why would our tax dollars pay for Head Start if you are going on cruises and to Disney? I'm truly not trying to be mean. It was always my impression that Head Start was for those that were truly disadvantaged. That was the exact word you used in your post that I originally quoted. I guess I really don't understand the Head Start program at all and the more I am reading, the less I am in favor of it. In my mind, I just found a few billion dollars the federal government could put to better use.

A) Flightlessduck mentioned disadvantaged, I never did.
B) Apparently Head Start is not just for "poor" kids/families. It's also to help with various learning disabilities. When DS went through it, he had to go through a battery of tests, then about a month later we were told whether he qualified. He had a speech impairment and that's what qualified him.

 

[LisaR]

A) Flightlessduck mentioned disadvantaged, I never did.
B) Apparently Head Start is not just for "poor" kids/families. It's also to help with various learning disabilities. When DS went through it, he had to go through a battery of tests, then about a month later we were told whether he qualified. He had a speech impairment and that's what qualified him.

Duh! It was Flightlessduck. My bad. Sorry.

Still, I always thought Head Start was for disadvantaged kids only. When my son had speech problems, we took him for speech therapy because we had health insurance that covered part of it. I am just starting to understand the Head Start program over the past 30 minutes and I'm not remotely impressed.

 

[Southernmiss]

One of my DSs needed speech therapy at age 3 when his articulation was waayy behind.

It never occured to me that Head Start would help him there (and I really don't think it would have). I went to our county school district and had him tested there. It was my responsibility to take him to his therapy for 30 minutes twice a week. When he started Kindergarten, he continued with his speech therapy at his public school until 2nd grade with the onsite speech teacher.