Terror in the Skies, Again?

[BrerMom]

Originally posted by dianeschlicht
Excuse me for barging in, but I would like to know the story. I only got the first page read before it appeared to expire.

Check your PMs.

 

[Geoff_M]

One another note, when the next "big one" hits I don't think it's going to envolve a plane. I think 9/11 was a "one trick pony". The logical thing for terrorists to do is go after "weak spots", when one avenue is strengthened... they'll look for another. I tend to believe that a logical choice would be commuter rail lines ( a la Spain). Many have complained that such methods of moving large numbers of people haven't received the same attention as our airlines. It wouldn't take that much to kill the equal to a plane load of people on a rail train.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
You mean like when Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil War?

But we were actually at war then, with an enemy that you could point to. The "war on terror" is not the same thing. It's a fight against a nebulous but very real enemy...one that could be standing right next to you and you might not realize it. Just as it was when Hitler declared that the Communists were attacking Germany and had, in fact, burned down one of their federal buildings.

Now, before anyone overreacts, I am not saying the George Bush is the equivalent of Hitler, so kindly leggo' of that red herring, 'kay ? My point is simply that asking the populace to surrender their freedoms so that they can feel a little more (largely inaccurate) security has been done before, and with exceedingly bad results.

Read the last quote in my signature. Whatever happened to "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" ? When did things change to "I'm so scared, I'll sacrifice my liberties for a little more perceived security" I mean, I've got nothing to hide, right ?"

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
One another note, when the next "big one" hits I don't think it's going to envolve a plane. I think 9/11 was a "one trick pony". The logical thing for terrorists to do is go after "weak spots", when one avenue is strengthened... they'll look for another. I tend to believe that a logical choice would be commuter rail lines ( a la Spain). Many have complained that such methods of moving large numbers of people haven't received the same attention as our airlines. It wouldn't take that much to kill the equal to a plane load of people on a rail train.

My (personal) nightmare is that car bombs become prevalent in the US. I was frightened, just like everyone else, by what happened on 9/11. But I left work and drove (quickly) to pick up DD from daycare upon hearing that a car bomb had gone off at the State Department (which obviously proved to be false). There are roughly 4 or 5 large chemical plants between my work and DD's daycare...and that wouldn't work if they were bringing car bombs into the picture.

Remember the stuff that killed all those people in Bopal India ? They have a large store of that chemical about 15 miles from where I sit.

 

[mickeymousefan]

When did things change to "I'm so scared, I'll sacrifice my liberties for a little more perceived security" I mean, I've got nothing to hide, right ?"

wvrevy... IMO baggage checks and airport screening are really low on the totum pole of civil liberties. No one is forced to fly. We choose to get on a plane and if we are required to open our luggage, answer questions, or be searched than that is the price we will pay for flying. What is the big deal about this. Why do people think being subject to a search is a violation of their civil liberties?
10 years ago my flight to Athens had a stopover in Rome. First off, there were guards there with what looked like machine guns to me. Second, when I set off the metal detector, I was immedialtely pulled aside and given a once over with a wand. (package of foil wrapped butter in my pocket). Yeah, maybe it was a little embarassing, but I never thought "gee... they just violated my civil rights!!"

 

[Geoff_M]

Read the last quote in my signature. Whatever happened to "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" ? When did things change to "I'm so scared, I'll sacrifice my liberties for a little more perceived security" I mean, I've got nothing to hide, right ?"

So if all the American airlines adopted security procedures like those of El Al that everyone was subjected to, would you consider that a loss of Constitutional freedoms?

 

[wvrevy]

Of course it will start with "minor" liberties...You don't think they'd start by ordering the closing of the New York Times and Washington Post, do you ? No....this is exactly the kind of thing that begins the downward spiral. "Oh, we're not really doing anything to them. So long as they have nothing to hide, what's the big deal ?"

If this was aimed at white males, you'd have every CEO in the country screeming his country club head off about being singled out for extra security screenings. But since it's people with darker skin that we're targeting, it's supposed to be ok ?

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
So if all the American airlines adopted security procedures like those of El Al that everyone was subjected to, would you consider that a loss of Constitutional freedoms?

Just hopping in here, was at work so I missed a few pages...

IMO, the answer to this question is no. I do not consider going through strict security checkpoints to ride public transportation to be a violation of my rights.

I could always choose to drive, or just not go.

It really does not bother me in the slightest.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
So if all the American airlines adopted security procedures like those of El Al that everyone was subjected to, would you consider that a loss of Constitutional freedoms?

So long as the new measures are applied to everyone, and in equal measure, then no, I wouldn't have a major problem with it. Oh, I might complain about the inconvenience, but it wouldn't be loudly and it wouldn't mean that I didn't agree with it.

Shoot, I DID agree with the increased security that was put in place after 9/11. So long as there was an actual need for it and it wasn't done as a campaign stunt, i wouldn't have a problem with it now, either.

 

[mickeymousefan]

Well, truthfully I think everyone white, black, muslim, purple, even the mouse himself should be prepared to be searched if they want to fly. Since it is a time issue, random is about the best we can hope for. I do think anyone acting suspicious, like the fellows in the article, should be questioned.
Once again, I do not see this as the chipping away of our civil liberties. People choose to fly!!! Its not like they are searching people as they are walking down the street or coming into our homes. We have security checks all over!!! Some schools have metal detectors, county buildings have meatl detectors. Even WDW has a baggage check. Six Flags has metal detectors and a baggage check. Are these objectionable too?

 

[Geoff_M]

Of course it will start with "minor" liberties...You don't think they'd start by ordering the closing of the New York Times and Washington Post, do you ? No....this is exactly the kind of thing that begins the downward spiral.

Enter the old petard: "The Slipperly Slope". A favorite of both ends of the political spectrum. "If we outlaw 'assault' weapons... down the road it'll be ALL guns!" "Requiring minors to seek permission for an abortion... is a step towards overturning Roe v. Wade!" etc. etc. Very rarely do such "doomsday" scenarios play out... I think voters are enough of adults, in general, to reach their own conclusions about what should and shouldn't transpire. (BTW, this isn't to imply that I'm for racial profiling.... I'm not.)

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by mickeymousefan
Well, truthfully I think everyone white, black, muslim, purple, even the mouse himself should be prepared to be searched if they want to fly. Since it is a time issue, random is about the best we can hope for. I do think anyone acting suspicious, like the fellows in the article, should be questioned.
Once again, I do not see this as the chipping away of our civil liberties. People choose to fly!!! Its not like they are searching people as they are walking down the street or coming into our homes. We have security checks all over!!! Some schools have metal detectors, county buildings have meatl detectors. Even WDW has a baggage check. Six Flags has metal detectors and a baggage check. Are these objectionable too?

Again, no, they are not because they are applied to everyone equally, not based on someone's skin color. I don't think anybody is complaining about random checks, or even when someone is "acting suspicious"...But singling out someone because of the amount of pigment in their skin is repugnant. And yes, it's a violation of our civil rights.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Abu Nidal (the man) was not from the Philippines, he was Palestinian. Abu Nidal (the organization) was a splinter group of the PLO.



Really? I'd love to see that evidence. Link please?

My mistake. It is not Abu Nidal. It is Abu Sayyaf (I am not an expert) and they are known for their fondness or beheading people.

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/asc.htm

As for the Anthrax attacks, I did not say that the culprit of the attacks were domestic terrorists. Only that there was evidence of it. At least the FBI said so at the time. I have not kept up with developments about it, but I do find it strange that not much news about those attacks have surfaced in almost three years.

http://www.fact-index.com/2/20/2001_anthrax_attacks.html

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/testspointdomestic.html

quote "The FBI claims that they are concentrating on a domestic terrorist and that the anthrax attack was not related to the September 11th, 2001 attacks."

 

[LoriKay]

If the airlines in this country adopted security procedures like those of El Al it would be good with me. IMHO, we're too busy being "politically correct" in this country. And I'm finding it interesting in this thread how many people don't think others ARE entitled to their own opinion. Disclaimer: Please note that I'm not commenting on any specific person with my last remark.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by LoriKay
If the airlines in this country adopted security procedures like those of El Al it would be good with me. IMHO, we're too busy being "politically correct" in this country. And I'm finding it interesting in this thread how many people don't think others ARE entitled to their own opinion. Disclaimer: Please note that I'm not commenting on any specific person with my last remark.

I am just guessing but I don't think you can compare the flow of people/tourists into Israel with that of the U.S. and therefore the ability to implement the same safety measures.

Millions of people travel into and within the U.S. daily. I doubt many people are going to Israel these days.

I might be a minority, but I think the security measures to travel these days are good enough to prevent another incident like 9-11.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Has anyone actually experienced security procedures at El Al? I've never been to Isreal. I'd love to be able to go someday. What exactly is involved? Do they have one of those machines that takes your pic, and compares it to a terror photo data base?

 

[alliecats]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Maybe I'm too jaded, but this article has all the hallmarks of an urban legend in the making. Either that or the author has one rich, very healthy fantasy life.

As do, apparently, the flight attendants and the numerous agents that met the plane. Imaginations just running rampant for no good reason! Whatever. Whether you agree with the writer's perspective or not, apparently some people (trained to look for certain things) thought it was worth checking out. I do not know what this was, but it sure doesn't sound like only one woman was disturbed by the actions on the plane. I am normally described by people as a liberal of the flaming variety, but this ride would have made me nervous.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by alliecats
As do, apparently, the flight attendants and the numerous agents that met the plane. Imaginations just running rampant for no good reason! Whatever. Whether you agree with the writer's perspective or not, apparently some people (trained to look for certain things) thought it was worth checking out. I do not know what this was, but it sure doesn't sound like only one woman was disturbed by the actions on the plane. I am normally described by people as a liberal of the flaming variety, but this ride would have made me nervous.

I am still waiting for the other reports of the terror on this flight, from the airline, from TSA, from other crew members, from other passengers. This is one report from one person. If this flight was such a horrific nightmare as she describes, then surely someone somewhere would have said something. But there is no corraboration anywhere. No official reports, no other accounts, nothing. Sometimes silence can be deafening.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
I know, Steve, I was just trying to get you into more trouble!

My good friend, you know as well as I do that I don't need ANY help to get myself in a whole heap of trouble. I would think you would want to steer clear of me ... you know when the lightning bolt finally strikes and sizzles my fizzle, you don't want to be caught in the backwash!

 

[Snowysmom]

To be honest, I haven't read all of the replies. Just my 2 cents, but I would be upset if any group of people were acting like the group described in the article. It could be white men, women, grandmas, whatever. I find the behavior to be very disturbing. It seems to me like they were doing a dry run of something like they did before 9/11. We all do have to be observant and take note of what is going on around us and it sounds like the author of the article did that. It is too bad that we have to be so suspicious but the world is a much different place than it was 3 years ago. I do find it scary that the security forces won't do anything until it is too late. As I said before, I find the behavior of the group to be scary and disturbing and I would feel that way if it was group of whites, blacks, kids, etc.