Terror in the Skies, Again?

[Eeyore1954]

My prayer is that I hope those who support racial profiling for air travel (or any type of travel) NEVER are subjected to it themselves. I also hope if/when that day does come that there is someone around who will say that that is just as wrong as what we are doing to people of Middle Eastern descent today.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Wow, Steve this is really quite beautiful! Even though I think that you called me a fat lady on the other thread. (Just kidding) Are you sure that you are really a republican? Ha Ha!

I think you misunderstood or I was not clear enough... my reference to the "fat lady" was not to you. It was the generic reference to the "fat lady" of the opera... you know that the opera's over when the fat lady sings. I was just saying that the opposition to gay marriage has not allowed the "fat lady" on the stage yet ... oh dear ... I just keep digging myself in deeper and deeper...

I'm a Republican in name only; in most political quizzes I lean heavily toward Libertarian. But since they don't stand a chance of winning anything, I usually vote Republican (not that any political party would have me!!).

 

[Joeblack]

I totally agree with Steve on this one (again). I think the author of the article was right to feel concerned. I would too, everyone has to keep an eye open for suspicions behaviour and report it.

However, from that to racial profiling there is along way.

I have posted this in thwo other threads and noone has answered, so it would be nice if one of you racial profiling supporters could answer this.

Would you profile a Nigerian (black) or Indonesian (Oriental)person? They are both muslim.

Would you profile Latin Americans or Puerto Ricans? The mixture between native indians and Mediterranean Spaniards does look like middle Eastern. Besides, Jose Padilla an American Hispanic turned out to be an al_Qaeda operative, didn't he?

Would you profile SOuthern ITalian, Greek or Israeli people? Many of them look positively Middle Eastern (big eyes, black hair, thick eyebrows)...think Robert DeNiro, Dave Attel, David Copperfield or Al Pacino.

Would you profile Caribbean people? Richard Reid, the Shoe bomber was british with Jamaican ascent.

Would you profile someone who looked like John Walker or Tim McVeigh? THey are caucasian yet they woule have no problem killing people for what they believe in.

How about people of Colombian or Irish origin. There are proven terrorist cells in both conuntries. Is there no possibility that they could hold a grudge and try to blow up a plane?

Finally, if racial profiling became the rule, don't you think terrorists would use exactly people who would not raise suspicion to carry out their acts? Didn't the 9-11 killers look and act as occidental as could be on that day? If they planned a strike, would they try to look as Muslim and suspicious as possible? Of course not.

Just some questions to ponder before adopting a measure which has no difference from discrimintaing blacks from entering a place.

Anyone?


By the way, it was James Woods who reported suspicious activity before 911 and was ignored.

 

[DawnCt1]

JoeBlack, I don't think that the issue is, would racial profiling solve the problem. I think that the issue, that the article highlights for me, is, "is the fear of being found guilty of racial profiling preventing screening of highly suspicious passengers. Only two out of the 14 suspicious passengers could be rescreened and searched because to exceed that number, the airline would have been guilty of racial profiling. Muslim extremism comes in all colors. It isn't unreasonable to pay attention to the countries of origin. The state department issues advisories with regards to travel from certain countries. Paying attention to travelers from those countries is equally prudent. Yes, James Woods was ignored. It was somewhat understandable then. It would be unforgivable now.

 

[Kallison]

My DH gets pulled over and searched every time we fly, I mean every time. He has dark hair and a slighly largish nose -- (sorry hon). We joke that he looks middle Eastern. Does it bother us in any shape way or form. No way, no how. I say do what you have to do to keep us safe. If your family or friends were on one of those 9/11 flights you would feel the same way.

 

[Maleficent13]

A properly trained and experienced flight attendant is not going to risk their job by announcing to an unknown passenger that there are federal marshalls on the flight. That information is simply not made known to individual passengers regardless of how frightened they may be. I also doubt that a properly trained flight attendent is going to conspire with the same unknown passenger to pass notes to said marshalls.

With all due respect, I disagree. When we are scared out of our wits, we often do things we wouldn't normally do, or even should do. Whether a properly trained flight attendant should or should not do these things, at that moment perhaps the flight attendant was so scared she was not able to maintain her composure or what was proper. Perhaps she wasn't looking to reassure a passenger so much as gain the cooperation of one. Obviously, not being there, I don't know.

As far as the topic at hand, would I have been terrified on that flight, based on the report of the behavior exhibited? More than likely. Actually, if I'm honest, yes, I would have been. But...to me, 9/11 has only served to make me really think about what it means to be an American. I certainly don't want to die, and certainly not in such a horrific way. Nor do I undervalue the lives of those who died on 9/11. But preserving freedom means foregoing some of the security of less free nations. You can't really have it both ways.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
With all due respect, I disagree. When we are scared out of our wits, we often do things we wouldn't normally do, or even should do. Whether a properly trained flight attendant should or should not do these things, at that moment perhaps the flight attendant was so scared she was not able to maintain her composure or what was proper. Perhaps she wasn't looking to reassure a passenger so much as gain the cooperation of one. Obviously, not being there, I don't know.

ITA. Keeping a job if your not sure your going to land seems irrelevent.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
Most Middle eastern men ARE NOT terrorists. Unfortunately, most terrorists ARE middle eastern men.

Totally wrong. They have become the most notorious, but just 10 years ago, Basque, Irish, Peruvian or Colombian terrorist groups made the headlines more than any other. Beside those (who usually are far-lef winged, America hating organizations), you also have Japanese, Greek, Italian, Bolivian, Rwandan terrorist organizations (among many other). Ah..and don't forget all the Paramilitary underground groups inn the U.S.A. itself who undoutedly can be labeled terrorist.


Take your pick:

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm

 

[Lanshark]

My question is why hasn't this type of information been disclosed to the general public in a broad sense. We have heightened terror alerts and people have no idea what they are looking for. We have hours of Scott Peterson and Kobe Bryant and this doesn't merit news time ???

If the government knew this was a pattern of behavior practiced by would be terrorists why not disclose it. If it had really been a bomb it wouldn't have mattered if there were 100 federal agents on the plane.

Did the agents just so happen to be on that plane or were they shadowing these men? If they were shadowing these men why not stop them before boarding. Were they so sure this was a dry run?

 

[Lanshark]

Totally wrong.

Would you disagree that Middle Eastern Men are currently the biggest threat?

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by Joeblack
Totally wrong. Take your pick:

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/tgpndx.htm

If you consider the attacks that are relevant to us, the 1992 WTC, The Cole, the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, The Pentagon, 9/11, the night club bombing in Bali, etc. Muslim extremism is the biggest threat and will continue to be in the foreseeable future.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I think you misunderstood or I was not clear enough... my reference to the "fat lady" was not to you. It was the generic reference to the "fat lady" of the opera... you know that the opera's over when the fat lady sings. I was just saying that the opposition to gay marriage has not allowed the "fat lady" on the stage yet ... oh dear ... I just keep digging myself in deeper and deeper...

I'm a Republican in name only; in most political quizzes I lean heavily toward Libertarian. But since they don't stand a chance of winning anything, I usually vote Republican (not that any political party would have me!!).

I know, Steve, I was just trying to get you into more trouble!

Is Detroit an area with a large middle eastern population? That might make a difference in how people are reacting to this thread?

 

[NMAmy]

Lanshark--we only have the author's conjecture that this was a dry run. And frankly, I didn't find the article all that credible. So much was based on her projections (the man who had seemed friendly before had a stony face later--heck, maybe he couldn't figure out who the heck she was and why she was trying so hard to make contact with him, he had the gall to bring a McDonald's bag on the plane with him, they boarded at different times--well, heck, they weren't sitting together. They call to have passengers board according to the row you're sitting in.)

I'm betting the reason we haven't heard anything is because it was found that those men did nothing wrong.

 

[NMAmy]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
I know, Steve, I was just trying to get you into more trouble!

Is Detroit an area with a large middle eastern population? That might make a difference in how people are reacting to this thread?

It sure is a large middle eastern population area. I posted about that a long ways back, but it got lost in the hubub.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
JoeBlack, I don't think that the issue is, would racial profiling solve the problem. I think that the issue, that the article highlights for me, is, "is the fear of being found guilty of racial profiling preventing screening of highly suspicious passengers. Only two out of the 14 suspicious passengers could be rescreened and searched because to exceed that number, the airline would have been guilty of racial profiling. Muslim extremism comes in all colors. It isn't unreasonable to pay attention to the countries of origin. The state department issues advisories with regards to travel from certain countries. Paying attention to travelers from those countries is equally prudent. Yes, James Woods was ignored. It was somewhat understandable then. It would be unforgivable now.

Racial profiling does not look for countries of origin. It looks and discriminates on racial physical traits...the shape of your eyes, nose, the color of your hair, the language you speak, etc.

I think screening and searching should be done indiscriminately and even randomly, and not based on the way a person looks.

I don't know about the author of the article, but everytime I board a plane, they look for traces of gun powder in my handbags, they don't allow any open liquid container such as glasses or cups in the plane, they won't allow any high proof bottle of alcohol, and most definitley they will check orthopedic or any kind of shoes with xrays. My 80 year old grandmother's shoes and walking stick were checked, unassembled and even sniffed ;-) before boarding the plane. So was my kids' stuffed animal. IS it a hassle? Yeah, but it is a price I am willing to pay to feel and fly safer. Everyone should be checked and screened, and everyone should comply with the regulations regardless of race, sex or country of origin.

You can all be sure that anyone with a middle eastern name or face will be subjected to additional scrutiny by airline employees, peer fliers, etc (it is unavoidable). But from that to make it a law
...Sorry, but I don't think it will happen.

 

[Lanshark]

NMAmy,

Some of this made no sense to me either. That's why I brought up the points I did. We'll see if this article generates some discussion in the media on this topic.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by Joeblack

You can all be sure that anyone with a middle eastern name or face will be subjected to additional scrutiny by airline employees, peer fliers, etc (it is unavoidable). But from that to make it a law
...Sorry, but I don't think it will happen.

The law exists right now that excludes that particular group from additional screening if it exceeds the quota. That is unfortunate.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
If you consider the attacks that are relevant to us, the 1992 WTC, The Cole, the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, The Pentagon, 9/11, the night club bombing in Bali, etc. Muslim extremism is the biggest threat and will continue to be in the foreseeable future.

What is foreseeable? Do you think 9-11 was really foreseeable?

Besides, I was replying to your ascertion that most terrorists are Middle Eastern. That is just not correct.

One of the most blood thirsty Al-Qaeda allies is Abu Nidal from the Philippines. NOw, I can assure you that if you saw one of these guys, he/she would look like any other Oriental person. Would you screen him/her? WOuld they commit a terrorist act against the U.S.? In the blink of an eye.

 

[Joeblack]

Originally posted by DawnCt1
The law exists right now that excludes that particular group from additional screening if it exceeds the quota. That is unfortunate.

The law would be broken if it could be proved beyond any reasonable doubt that the screeners profiled more people than allowed by the quota ON PURPOSE. The law can be bypassed by screening randomly the way they are doing right now. That way, it will be impossible for a person who threatens to sue the airline based on discrimination. (I have witnessed people threatening to sue the airline for reasons ranging from a bad meal to not getting the seat they wanted but that is another story).

 

[mickeymousefan]

I have to agree that profiling SUSPICIOUS acting middle easterns is a necessary evil. For that matter any group of people, regardles of race, that is congregateing outside a bathroom on an airline is suspicious and should be addressed.
The fact is.... we know terrorists groups are planning something else big. We know they are made up mostly of middle eastern men. Victoms of violent crimes often fear people who match the profile of their attacker. We as a nation were a victom of a horrible violent crime. Of course we will be fearful when we see a group of Middle Eastern men acting suspiciously on a plane!!
Imagine for one minute what it was like to have to jump from 85 or 95 stories high because the building beneath you is burning. Think about the terror that gripped the people on the planes as they crashed to their deaths. Think of the children whose Mommys and Daddys never came home that day. Tell me why hurting someones feelings or making them uncomfortable by asking them a few more questions or searching them is so horrible!!!