Teaching/Encouraging/aiding kids in a lie. Where do you draw the line?

[sam_gordon]

White lies? Sure. Lies to defraud someone? Never. Ever.

So there ARE some reasons it's ok to lie? Who gets to decide what's ok and what's not?
Could you please explain who is being defrauded?

 

[sam_gordon]

An 11 year old does not "NEED" social media. They may want it, but they certainly don't need it. Delayed gratification teaches a great lesson about life.

I'm guessing there's quite a bit ALL of our kids have simply because they wanted it. Kids don't need ipods, ipads, game systems (hand held or console), models, board games, toy trains, etc.

How long do you need to delay the gratification in order to teach the life lesson? Years? Months? Weeks? Days?

 

[mnrose]

So there ARE some reasons it's ok to lie? Who gets to decide what's ok and what's not?
Could you please explain who is being defrauded?

You are defrauding the owner of the social media website. There are specific requirements that apply to website owners who collect private data of users under the age of 13. Facebook, etc most certainly DO collect private data of from ALL their users. It's called the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. Facebooks, etc. DO NOT comply with the terms of this law because they DELIBERATELY seek to exclude children under the age of 13. When you allow your underage child to sign up for these social media sites you are exposing Facebook etc to penalties for failure to comply with COPPA. This is why I have ZERO sympathy for parents who claim "bad things" have happened to little Johnny or little Suzy on social media. They don't BELONG on these sites. And, there is a reason for it.


Can you explain why it is ao friggen important for underage children to be on social media sites that it is worth lying about it?!?!

 

[mnrose]

I'm guessing there's quite a bit ALL of our kids have simply because they wanted it. Kids don't need ipods, ipads, game systems (hand held or console), models, board games, toy trains, etc.

How long do you need to delay the gratification in order to teach the life lesson? Years? Months? Weeks? Days?

With social media, that answer is easy. When they are old enough to fill in the information required for an account without lying about it.

There is ZERO benefit in early enrollment, at least none that I have seen identified here.

 

[Lisaloo]

I didn't even read the responses. For us, lying is wrong and we try to live a really honest life. I'm a rule follower by nature so it isn't so difficult. We don't fudge ages or taxes or anything else.

 

[PollyannaMom]

The poster mentioning the pills said it would save her daughter 15 minutes to not have to go to the nurse for a non life threatening illness...

I understood that one differently. I thought she said if the girl took the medicine right away/at the first sign, the migraine would last a few hours, but if she waited even a little while to get it from the nurse, it wouldn't work as well, and the migraine would last for days.


As for the original question, I do believe there is a grey area to just how truthful you need to be, and that even though it's hard, it's worth teaching kids to figure out where those lines are. The first example that popped into my head was already discussed above - I've always given DS permission to say I wouldn't allow something if he was uncomfortable with it. We also participate in the "Sure, I like your haircut." type of lie to save someone's feelings. (But setting that example did come back to haunt me later when we had to have a long, involved discussion about the difference between preserving someone's feelings after they can't do anything about a decision and mom asking if you honestly like a recipe and she should make it again. - But then again, I did say it was worth it.)

In my book, hiding a surprise party is OK, believing in Santa is OK. I am personally uncomfortable with lying about age for social media, but I'm certainly not perfect, either: I quite honorably paid full price for DS at the movies the other day, even though they guy thought he was younger and asked - but a few months ago on the train, when the conductor only punched my ticket once and I didn't notice until he had moved on to another car, I didn't go searching for him and make him punch it again for DS. If I realize at the register that the cashier undercharged me by $10.00, I'll speak up, but if I realize after I get home that she undercharged me by $1.00, I won't even worry about it.

In general, I'm a rule-follower, but I do believe in considering the reason for the rule, and causing the least harm.

 

[bdcp]

I'm guessing there's quite a bit ALL of our kids have simply because they wanted it. Kids don't need ipods, ipads, game systems (hand held or console), models, board games, toy trains, etc.

How long do you need to delay the gratification in order to teach the life lesson? Years? Months? Weeks? Days?

Well, how about at least for social media sites that say 13, then at the very least, 13? I have grown boys and they wanted lots of things, but were made to wait for most til birthdays, Christmas, etc. Our sons are 29 and 31 and both know how to delay gratification which is very evident by the way they live their lives. Too many kids never have to wait for anything and it's very evident. Are you saying there's something wrong with delayed gratification? Ever tried it?

We are also rule followers and very honest in how we live our lives, and what some people forget is the social media rules are in place to protect kids. Considering what some post on social media, even 13 is too young for a lot of it.

The statement I absolutely hate is "rules are made to be broken". I've seen adults use it to justify their bad behavior.

 

[sam_gordon]

Well, how about at least for social media sites that say 13, then at the very least, 13? I have grown boys and they wanted lots of things, but were made to wait for most til birthdays, Christmas, etc. Our sons are 29 and 31 and both know how to delay gratification which is very evident by the way they live their lives. Too many kids never have to wait for anything and it's very evident. Are you saying there's something wrong with delayed gratification? Ever tried it?

No. I've ALWAYS given my kids everything they want as soon as they want it. That must be why they're so messed up.

We are also rule followers and very honest in how we live our lives, and what some people forget is the social media rules are in place to protect kids. Considering what some post on social media, even 13 is too young for a lot of it.

As I said upthread, some ADULTS can't handle social media. Upthread someone said (paraphrasing) "speeding is ok if you're willing to accept the consequences". I think the same goes for social media for preteens.

The statement I absolutely hate is "rules are made to be broken". I've seen adults use it to justify their bad behavior.

Well, I for one don't use that statement, and I don't remember anyone in this thread saying it, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

I don't care how emphatic you are, I'm not going to judge someone for letting an 11 or 12 year old on (certain) social media. I'm not going to judge someone for telling their child they must be 13 to join social media.

ETA: Those of you who refuse to let your kids on social media until they meet the age requirements ARE good parents and have good kids. Those of us who lie and let our kids on social media "early" ARE good parents and have good kids. If you don't believe BOTH of those statements, then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[ten6mom]

Neither of my kids (currenly 8 and 11) has a social media account (and my older one has asked... I said NO), but I did get them both iPods when they were I think 6 and 8 and technically they're supposed to be 13 ( I think). I used my own birthdate for those.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I understood that one differently. I thought she said if the girl took the medicine right away/at the first sign, the migraine would last a few hours, but if she waited even a little while to get it from the nurse, it wouldn't work as well, and the migraine would last for days.


As for the original question, I do believe there is a grey area to just how truthful you need to be, and that even though it's hard, it's worth teaching kids to figure out where those lines are. The first example that popped into my head was already discussed above - I've always given DS permission to say I wouldn't allow something if he was uncomfortable with it. We also participate in the "Sure, I like your haircut." type of lie to save someone's feelings. (But setting that example did come back to haunt me later when we had to have a long, involved discussion about the difference between preserving someone's feelings after they can't do anything about a decision and mom asking if you honestly like a recipe and she should make it again. - But then again, I did say it was worth it.)

In my book, hiding a surprise party is OK, believing in Santa is OK. I am personally uncomfortable with lying about age for social media, but I'm certainly not perfect, either: I quite honorably paid full price for DS at the movies the other day, even though they guy thought he was younger and asked - but a few months ago on the train, when the conductor only punched my ticket once and I didn't notice until he had moved on to another car, I didn't go searching for him and make him punch it again for DS. If I realize at the register that the cashier undercharged me by $10.00, I'll speak up, but if I realize after I get home that she undercharged me by $1.00, I won't even worry about it.

In general, I'm a rule-follower, but I do believe in considering the reason for the rule, and causing the least harm.

This answer explains how i feel about the whole thing better than all of my attempts upthread combined!

 

[spacemountainmom]

I understood that one differently. I thought she said if the girl took the medicine right away/at the first sign, the migraine would last a few hours, but if she waited even a little while to get it from the nurse, it wouldn't work as well, and the migraine would last for days.


As for the original question, I do believe there is a grey area to just how truthful you need to be, and that even though it's hard, it's worth teaching kids to figure out where those lines are. The first example that popped into my head was already discussed above - I've always given DS permission to say I wouldn't allow something if he was uncomfortable with it. We also participate in the "Sure, I like your haircut." type of lie to save someone's feelings. (But setting that example did come back to haunt me later when we had to have a long, involved discussion about the difference between preserving someone's feelings after they can't do anything about a decision and mom asking if you honestly like a recipe and she should make it again. - But then again, I did say it was worth it.)

In my book, hiding a surprise party is OK, believing in Santa is OK. I am personally uncomfortable with lying about age for social media, but I'm certainly not perfect, either: I quite honorably paid full price for DS at the movies the other day, even though they guy thought he was younger and asked - but a few months ago on the train, when the conductor only punched my ticket once and I didn't notice until he had moved on to another car, I didn't go searching for him and make him punch it again for DS. If I realize at the register that the cashier undercharged me by $10.00, I'll speak up, but if I realize after I get home that she undercharged me by $1.00, I won't even worry about it.

In general, I'm a rule-follower, but I do believe in considering the reason for the rule, and causing the least harm.

As a migraine sufferer and mom of a teenaged migraine sufferer, we broke the school's rule against medication starting at age 11. When DS started middle school we discovered that if he took his meds right as the migraine was starting, he could pretty much stop it in its tracks. I bought him a small pill holder that he could keep in his pocket and told him if he felt the migraine coming on, he was to get a restroom pass and go take his meds. If he waited to go to the nurse and for the nurse to contact me for approval, his day was over and I would have to come get him from school.

To me this is a no-brainer, why should he be forced to suffer and miss school? He would have missed quite a bit of school as he had frequent migraines in those days and then I would be dealing with the whole truancy issue. I told DS that if he was ever caught that I would deal with it. Thankfully that never happened.

DS is in HS now and hs students here are allowed to self-medicate. Fortunately, he also has far less episodes than he did during the middle school years.

In the end I agree with the quoted poster's last statement and feel that sometimes a rule has to be broken. I don't think DS or I are horrible people.

 

[smitch425]

and feel that sometimes a rule has to be broken. I don't think DS or I are horrible people.

And that's exactly how I feel about allowing Instagram for my kids. Think about it this way...
Before Instagram, when we would visit our family they would talk about how much fun they had together at the drive in last weekend, at the mall, etc. It's heartbreaking to see your kids' faces when they can't relate to those conversations because they weren't there, and the reason they weren't there is due to your (mine and DH's) decision to take a job out of state as newlyweds. If we could move home, we would, but we can't. Instagram allows the kids to feel like they are with their family. They can follow along with their daily, crazy lives and not feel left out. I'm okay with my choice. No one else has to be.

 

[Colleen27]

Totally agree with OP!! I'll never understand how parents are teaching kids online safety while at the same time telling them it's absolutely okay to lie about how old you are. "Yes, you can lie and make things up here, but don't do it here." Really?

PPs mentioned things like the inhaler and the Rosa Parks examples of breaking rules. I agree there are instances like that. But my child would need to make a compelling argument like either of those before I'd consider giving consent. I'm sorry, but "everyone's doing it" is not a compelling argument!

I'm sorry, I don't encourage my children to lie under any circumstances. And that's exactly what you're doing by letting them create an account on these sites. It's not just breaking a rule. It's lying! They are checking off a box that says they're 13 and they're not. Not gonna happen here!

There are a number of settings in which I encourage my kids to lie. The internet is one of them - we teach the kids not to use real names for themselves, their friends, or where they live or go to school, but for some reason lying about age crosses a line? I also encourage them to lie if it helps them safely get out of dangerous or undesirable situations; my 17yo has used "My mom said I have to be home" more than once as an excuse to leave a peer-pressure heavy situation that he knew was wrong. And then there are the little white lies, pretending to like a hideous gift in the spirit of "Its the thought that counts" and things along those lines.

As far as online safety goes, the minimum age has nothing to do with safety. And it wasn't the social media hosts that set it - they're complying with government regulations about data collection/marketing, perhaps the most ridiculous/hypocritical set of rules our government imposes given the free reign on marketing to kids on television and the increasing amount of data collection being undertaken in schools.

Besides, I don't think you teach safety by making something off limits - you can only learn to drive a car by getting behind the wheel! - and for my children, I want them to know the ins and outs of navigating social media safely and intelligently before they get to the drama-filled mess that is high school dating in the digital era. It is easier to teach "block someone if they cause a problem", "think carefully about what pictures you share", and other basic skills like that during a calm stage of life than it is when they're in the middle of "my boyfriend broke up with me via Snapchat and now his new girlfriend is posting crap about me on Facebook and OMG what if he shares that racy picture I sent him on Instagram" and on and on.

But I fully embrace situational ethics. I don't think there are many black and white absolutes in life, and that generally speaking parents are better situated than strangers or lawmakers to establish reasonable limits for their own kids.

 

[Colleen27]

And the kids aren't lying to Santa to get what they want. Not the same thing at all.

No, the parents are lying to the kids about Santa to get something they (the parents) want - kids that are more conscious of their behavior. And as the kids get older, plenty will lie by saying they still believe in order to get something they want - continued gifts from "Santa".

And FWIW, we do the Santa thing here too, though more low-key than most families (Santa brings "family" gifts - board games, family movies, things we'll enjoy together), even though it means the teens do lie to DD6 to preserve the magic. They "lie" about WDW too, so as not to spoil the characters for their little sister. But we're not "never lie" parents. Context matters, IMO.

 

[spacemountainmom]

And that's exactly how I feel about allowing Instagram for my kids. Think about it this way...
Before Instagram, when we would visit our family they would talk about how much fun they had together at the drive in last weekend, at the mall, etc. It's heartbreaking to see your kids' faces when they can't relate to those conversations because they weren't there, and the reason they weren't there is due to your (mine and DH's) decision to take a job out of state as newlyweds. If we could move home, we would, but we can't. Instagram allows the kids to feel like they are with their family. They can follow along with their daily, crazy lives and not feel left out. I'm okay with my choice. No one else has to be.

I get what you are saying. My in-laws moved across the country a week before ds was born. My dh's sister and her family moved away 2 years prior. It was hard to keep in touch. My dd was 13 when FB was starting to get really popular. DH and I allowed her to go on FB and I signed up at the same time. She had to friend me and I had her password. We kept tabs on her in the early days and didn't really have any big issues. The small ones we had were discussed as learning points. It ended up being a great way for her to stay in touch with her cousins and grandparents.

DS really never cared about FB but did ask if he could get an account when he was 13. He mostly used it to stay in touch with his cousins and grandparents. He doesn't use it much now. Both kids are more into Instagram and Snapchat. I am pretty comfortable at this point that they are using social media wisely since we had open conversations about it when they were younger.