Teachers/parents, what's your take on this?

[DevilDuckie]

I'm not arguing re. teachers days off. I think they exaggerate how much overtime they put in

You are really, really wrong about this. I do five hours a week of volunteer work for my son's teacher- grading papers that she cannot do in class and would have to do as overtime. I grade only the easy stuff. Another parent grades spelling (another two hours) and yet another does math tests (another two hours). That puts us at 9 hours a week on the easy to grade stuff. Projects, essays and book reports are all on her, plus prep time for special projects and lesson plans. She has easily 20 hours a week of things she cannot do during class time and is just lucky this year that she has parents taking some of the load. Most years she's lucky to get 2 hours of help.

This is fourth grade. My friends who are middle school and high school teachers spend even more time. And for all this... my mailman makes more than the teacher.

 

[meandtheguys2]

I have four teachers in my family. I know that they sometimes exaggerate. I've seen them do it, and heard them admit it many times. They do it to make a point. So do the teachers that I have worked with in the public elementary and high school classes. Sure, sometimes work builds up, but frankly so does the paperwork of a counselor or social worker. Life is like that. And people always overstate, rather than understate the amt. of work they do.

And my sister makes less than many, but she started a school in spite of that. Dear Niece and nephew make good money working in special ed., and my dear half sister makes about a median wage in Southern California. You will never get sympathy from a Social Worker or Psychologist (except for really nice positions) re. the wages of teachers.

 

[fortheluvofpooh]

I have not read other replies, but here is my take. I wish our school had homework. My dd is in 1st grade and gets about 5 minutes of written work and 1/2 hr of reading a nite. Ds is in 6th grade and just this yr has had his first book report. I really wanted to pull them out and homeschool, especially dd, (cause ds is learning things with math that confuse me). But my mom got sick and needs me to do for her.... long story. But really look at your schools test scores, see how well they do compared to other schools in the nation, I bet you all that homework is part of what makes them a better school. Our schools grade is one of the lowest in the state. Sad, had I known that when we bought our home (before kids) I would never have moved here.

 

[lntsmom]

1. "The whole summer off" is a myth. Teachers in every state I've ever worked in are required to complete graduate courses to keep their certificates/licenses up-to-date. Most adults think of schools as fixed institutions...as if they are the same today as they were 20 or 30 years ago. I have about 8 weeks off...UNPAID...in the summer. Most years at least 2 weeks of that was spent in a college classroom...in courses that cost about $900 each...to get graduate credits. Many years I've taught summer school in order to help provide support for struggling readers. In the last district I was in teachers were required to do at least 2 days of professional development...in JULY! Last summer I had 3 weeks "off"...and those were spent relocating cross-country.

2. You may be surprised to know that holidays may or may not be paid, depending on the district. Either way it can work against teachers. In one district where I worked you were docked days if your maternity leave lapsed over a holiday. So, everyone else was off for Christmas, too, but you lost leave days when they didn't. Most districts don't have paid maternity leaves, btw. You get however many sick days you've built up, and after that you get docked 2x your daily takehome pay. Yes, that's right!!! If the district spreads the pay out over the summer, you get docked 1/the number of days in the school year per day, while you get paid 1/365th per day!

3. Teachers are adults. Educated adults. Employed adults. They are not children. It is childish for parents to expect the teachers to have the same rules as the children. If you get leave days at your job do you want ME to tell you how to use them? As an aside, some districts allow teachers to use their days however they wish...others will not approve leave for vacations. Either way, it is none of your business as a parent to know how your child's teacher is using his/her days. If you are really worried about, talk to the board and tell them you want restrictions on how the days are used.

4. Curriculums are not the same today as they were when we were children. In the last district I taught in children did not have math text books until they were in 6th grade. In our day you could take the text book and work ahead or make up the pages. In some programs used today all instruction is delivered by the teacher. Everything is hand's-on. There are no worksheets or text books. The only way for your child to effectively make up those missed days would be for the teacher to teach that day over again. You need to factor this in when choosing to take a vacation when school is in session. Some kids can handle missing a week or more of instruction, some can't. It's your job to know which kind of kid you are raising.

5. If you don't want your child to do homework, send a notarized letter to the teacher at the beginning of the year stating that your child will not do homework, and you are willing to take responsibility for any gaps in his/her education that this may cause. In elementary school the price may be F's in spelling each week. In Middle and High School the cost will be much greater...but if you feel strongly that you shouldn't have to do any review work with your child, stick to your guns.

6. Make sure that you know what you're talking about before you begin tearing down teachers and public education. How many school board meetings have you been to this year? Do you understand how and why policy is set in place? Do you attend PTO/PTA meetings regularly? Do you volunteer to be on parent review committees? Have you been to your state's dept. of ed. website to see what their policies are? Have you studied the most recent child development, educational philosophy, and best practices research? Do you really know what a good education looks like or are you basing your criticism on the fact that you went to elementary school once, and since you turned out okay what you experienced MUST be the best way to do things?

7. If you don't know the difference between instruction and review practice you really shouldn't attempt to homeschool until you've become educated in the matter. You children's teachers are asking you to do review of materials they have already presented in class. The half hour of flashcard work they ask you to do may review concepts presented over a two or four week unit! I have never seen a teacher ask parents to do instruction as a part of a homework activity. That's not saying it hasn't happened, it's just saying that in 24 years of teaching I have never seen a teacher send home materials expecting the parent to teach the concept. If you think it will be easier for you to effectively plan, deliver instruction, assess, and remediate than it is to do reviews for homework, I say go for it!

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

...but I say "Hurrah for the school teachers!!!!"

Remember, homework, at your children's grade levels, is more about reinforcing what's learned in class than new learning. And, despite having your children for 7 hours per day, the teacher can't be certain that everything is mastered by everyone in the class during that time.

My DD's, 9 and almost 11, go to a very rigorous school. They have homework Monday through Thursday nights and often have projects that take up time on the weekends or school breaks. These may be simple as reading for 30 minutes a day, or may be complicated as in working on their Science Fair projects or doing research to be shared with the class.

We know someone who had the same philosophy as the OP--"School has my kids for 7 hours monday through Friday, so why do they have to do homework nigths and weekends?"

She has come to realize that she has to be a partner with the teacher in her children's education.

What do you expect to happen when they're in Middle School, High School and College?

I would NEVER take my children out of school for a vacation.

I live in your area and I agree with you. I'm curious as to which school your children attend. You can PM me if you'd feel more comfortable. My guess is the West Melbourne School of Science? I debated that one before deciding on Montessori. I still hope that our kids get into West Shore via the lottery when the time comes for middle school, though.

I also agree that I would never take my kids out of school for a vacation.

 

[graygables]

6. Make sure that you know what you're talking about before you begin tearing down teachers and public education. How many school board meetings have you been to this year? Do you understand how and why policy is set in place? Do you attend PTO/PTA meetings regularly? Do you volunteer to be on parent review committees? Have you been to your state's dept. of ed. website to see what their policies are? Have you studied the most recent child development, educational philosophy, and best practices research? Do you really know what a good education looks like or are you basing your criticism on the fact that you went to elementary school once, and since you turned out okay what you experienced MUST be the best way to do things?

7. If you don't know the difference between instruction and review practice you really shouldn't attempt to homeschool until you've become educated in the matter. You children's teachers are asking you to do review of materials they have already presented in class. The half hour of flashcard work they ask you to do may review concepts presented over a two or four week unit! I have never seen a teacher ask parents to do instruction as a part of a homework activity. That's not saying it hasn't happened, it's just saying that in 24 years of teaching I have never seen a teacher send home materials expecting the parent to teach the concept. If you think it will be easier for you to effectively plan, deliver instruction, assess, and remediate than it is to do reviews for homework, I say go for it!

While I agree with most of what you said (as a former high school teacher), I take umbrage with the last 2. Under no circumstances is it necessary for a parent to study "child development, educational philosophy, and best practices research". Believe me, homeschool parents KNOW what an EXCELLENT education "looks like", much less a good one, which is why a vast majority have chosen to homeschool in the first place. It is a fallacy of many schools and their boards (and the NEA) that advanced study in theory is necessary for excellent education; homeschool parents prove each and every day that they are wrong. Public schools are failing to educate students at an increasingly rapid rate (compared to the rest of the world) and no amount of child development or philosophy or research is going to save them.

Quite honestly, there isn't a single thing that my children face in their curriculum up to Algebra II and Chemistry (math and science are my weak areas) that I can't teach them without the benefit of any specialized or advanced degrees.

Do teachers need some time off? You bet they do. BUT, there are some things that go along with the job and whether it's in the contract or not, you (general you) signed up for it. Grading papers is the nature of the beast. I would NEVER have been allowed to have a parent grade papers for me, it is a violation of privacy. Sure, I had to take work home outside of my contracted 7.5 hour 185 per year work days, but who doesn't? Yep, I had to work summer and night schools to make ends meet. Was it fun? Nope, but it's what I signed up for.

 

[taitai]

I think what many families are struggling with is the different competitive environment our children are in than we were as kids. This wonderful global economy has an impact far beyond outsourcing. If our kids are going to be able to compete for the best jobs than they are going to be competing not only with their classmates in college but also with citizens from all over the world. In many areas...especially math and science...the US lags far behind other countries in terms of our student's proficiency. Pretty much every other industrialized country sends their kids to school for longer periods of time than we do. Kids have to learn more at an earlier age than we did because the world is changing. Sadly, the education system has not changed as completely. We are still trying to cram 21st century learning into an educational environment designed for an agriculture-based economy (hence, the long summer vacation and shorter days).

Personally, I have no problem with teachers taking time off as needed. If we are going to hold them to a higher standard than the rest of society, than I think we should pay them a whole lot more. However, I know like everything else education related, vacation varies by district.

Instead of railing at a system that is just trying to help our kids, what we need to focus on is how to help them deal with all the homework and resulting stress. The homework isn't going to go away, and shouldn't, in my view, so how can we help the kids deal with it all?

 

[lntsmom]

chance my children will ever land in your classroom! If you spent an entire career teaching your curriculum instead of teaching children you did a major disservice to educators everywhere.

Exactly how did you differentiate instruction if you weren't relying on training you have in dealing with developmental and functional differences?

Let's put it this way. I go get my hair cut every month. I have friends who have cosmetology degrees. I've even spent time hanging out at their training schools. That doesn't make me qualified to walk into a salon and critique the way they do their jobs. If I don't like what I see I can go elsewhere, but I don't have the background knowledge to try to tell them what to do...or at least to be able to do that in an educated manner.

I never said that parents need that background to homeschool their children. I said that they shouldn't try to run their local schools unless they know what they're talking about.

Education is the only field I know that is run at the highest levels (legislators and the vast majority of board members) by people who have no training in the field. And the public wonders why schools have the problems they have.

 

[kcromley]

actually, at the best schools (the Ivy League, and the best prep boarding schools in the US) the educators don't have degrees in education, they have degrees in the subject matter they are teaching (math, history, etc). Many people can teach very well without formal degrees in education or child development.

 

[daisyduck123]

actually, at the best schools (the Ivy League, and the best prep boarding schools in the US) the educators don't have degrees in education, they have degrees in the subject matter they are teaching (math, history, etc). Many people can teach very well without formal degrees in education or child development.

I haven't read all the posts, so I may be out of context, but feel I have to comment on this quote:

Those are colleges...much older people. Those instructors stand in front of a classroom & dispense their knowledge.

When your dealing with young children, you can't just "stand in front of a room and dispense knowledge". There's so much more to it than that. Teachers need to have training in working with children.

 

[kcromley]

well, the prep schools to which I was referring take children at age 13 and older. I'm not saying some child development skill isn't helpful, but certified educators aren't the only ones with the necessary ability.

 

[graygables]

deleted

 

[minmate]

After reading most of this post/replies, I've come to the conclusion, part of the reason our education system is in such flux is because of the huge amount of opinions on what exactly we should be teaching our kids at what age and how intensely.

To the OP, you have chosen the private school your kids are in. Perhaps, if you aren't happy with it, you can look around for something more in alignment with your own philosophy.

Myself, a parent to four children, can't feasibly afford private school. Therefore, public school is just about my only option. I am on the other side of the fence as the OP. My kids don't get pushed enough academically. I don't fault the teachers, nor do I fault administration. They are working to improve things but we are a growing community and have struggled to pass referendums to give schools additional money to do the things they'd like to do. Our kids are in elementary school classes of 27-35. That's a lot! There are some high school and middle school classes of 40-45. That's too many! But there's simply nowhere else to put them. Now, do you think in a class of 35 fifth graders the teacher will have time to give one on one attention to them all in every subject? Not to mention the vast amounts of time wasted each day, turning papers in, correcting papers, switching classes (for reading/math/music/PE/Art, etc). That is just part of the deal with public schooling. It is not perfect.

We are a very busy family with other activities. It's not always easy to get the homework done but I don't think it's too much at ALL!

As for missing school for vacations - that's a personal family decision. If there are consequences from the school, the family has to weigh that in their decision. Growing up to be a well-rounded, well-balanced contributing member to society has so many different learning experiences involved in it - not just those you get sitting at a desk.

 

[lrab1126]

OP I do agree with you for the most part. I also feel that teachers are under a great deal of pressure these days too. So much is expected of them, so much more than even a decade ago. Yes, they are there to educate our children and I think for the most part the vast majority of teachers do this well and with great dedication, at least in my childrens schools (private systems). I see them struggle with lack of resources, lack of support, continuing education for their growth and also faced with the challenges of playing an additional role as "counselor" to many children these days who suffer from various degrees of "issues"...from family dynamic problems, abusive situations, to behavioral issues and so on, and this is bvery time consuming. In my daughters class there is one child who is so disruptive w/ his behavioral issues that it cuts into the progress of the class. My DD relays to me nearly everyday the antics of this kid and the stress is causes the teacher! I would prefer her to come home and explain to me about all she learned that day and not hear that what she most recalls is the disruptive kid.

Sorry...I was spinning off topic. But I do feel homework has become outrageous. I definitley expect some homework as I do feel it is very important to reinforce the things they learn everyday and to play an active role in their education.

I will likely continue to take my kids out of school for family vacations until they reach middle school, unless they demonstrated problems with their academics, in which case I would not take them out.

And the no child left behind act..do not even get me started on that

 

[meandtheguys2]

I have not read other replies, but here is my take. I wish our school had homework. My dd is in 1st grade and gets about 5 minutes of written work and 1/2 hr of reading a nite. Ds is in 6th grade and just this yr has had his first book report. I really wanted to pull them out and homeschool, especially dd, (cause ds is learning things with math that confuse me). But my mom got sick and needs me to do for her.... long story. But really look at your schools test scores, see how well they do compared to other schools in the nation, I bet you all that homework is part of what makes them a better school. Our schools grade is one of the lowest in the state. Sad, had I known that when we bought our home (before kids) I would never have moved here.

I'm sorry about your mom...been there, done that.

There are a couple of really good books about how a parent can effectively help their child learn outside of the classroom. Homework isn't always the answer. In fact I believe it to be more of a curse than a blessing. Life should be interesting, and with few exceptions flashcards are not the answer. Reading aloud, and encouraging interests is the key. If your kids like steam engines, go at it with gusto. The other benefit is that if they have an interest, you've always got something they can stay busy with, especially if you are having to take them to care for your mom. When mine had cancer, and when my grandma was dying, the kids just kept a bag of their stuff that went with us to the hospital, their homes, or the nursing home.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling! It is early and I've a wretched headache.

PS, Child development is useful information, but most of it is commons sense. It isn't rocket science. Anything that is necessary is easily gathered from reading pertinent literature.

 

[Aliceacc]

My favorite analogy about teaching:

Everyone has been a student. Many people think that, having been a student, they know what it's like to be a teacher.

That's like me saying I know what it's like to be an OBGYN because I've given birth. The experience was shared, but the perspective was completely different.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Poor analogy. Won't even go into the training and skills necessary.

Until 100 years ago, students became teachers after passing their high school classes and passing a test once it was instituted. Seemed to work pretty well, I'd say.

 

[Aliceacc]

Poor analogy. Won't even go into the training and skills necessary.
QUOTE]

Ditto with teaching.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Pardon? You think there is some comparison in skills and training between an OB/GYN and and teacher? Your post is very confusing.

eta: And you seem to have missed the point of the REST of my post. Creative editing and all...

 

[MM27]

In response to the 'take your kids out of school' threads, I need help understanding the current situation in what seems to be most schools... help me understand how things are working today so it doesn't bug me so much...
Personally, I don't care if a parent takes their child out of school for a family vacation. I would actually encourage it if they could afford it because kids gain so much real world experience and knowledge from travelling and spending that time with their families.

all the teachers put a fair amount of responsibility on the parents for learning (dd's 3rd grade teacher told us at open house in the beginning of the year that the entire class was behind in their memorization of math facts and they all needed to catch up, as if it was the parents problem and responsibility)... if the entire class is behind, how is that NOT a school issue and the fault of the prior teachers and/or academic policies of the school.

Um, it is the responsibility of a parent to be a teacher for their child as well. You can't have the attitude that it's the job of just the school and only the school. I teach 4th grade and I don't "teach" multiplication facts. Once you show kids some strategies, they really need to go home and just practice them. I review them in school, but by 4th grade it's one of those things we kind of expect kids to already know or to be practicing at home.

I feel like if the school did what you'd expect a school to do, that is, educate my child, then I can see the 'no taking them out for vacation'... but if the school is asking me to do weekend projects, summer projects, make flash cards, etc, etc, during "home time"

If you think the at home work is bad now, wait until they get to middle and high school. Do you have the same attitude about college? If so, my professors didn't teach me anything because I spent hours every day out of class learning new things.


Is it the 'no child left behind' thing? I personally don't know a single teacher who likes that whole thing, and I really don't know a teacher, public or private, who isn't frustrated w/ the education system.

Yes, part of it is NCLB. Whoever came up with that name sure was smart. People that don't know much about it don't understand what could be so bad about making sure No Child is Left Behind. Sounds like a good thing doesn't it? Learn more about it and you will understand why many teachers have problems with it.

I think they exaggerate how much overtime they put in

You can THINK whatever you want, but there are many teachers that put in tons of extra time every day, including weekends. Your opinions seem to be based on some issue you have with teachers in general. If it is going to have an impact on your children's education, you should home school. Save the teachers the aggravation of having to deal with another parent like you.