Table Manners....

[KristaTX]

It has nothing to do with someone else's food getting cold or warm - that's not etiquette, unless you're the one somehow changing the temperature of their food (like if you're serving the meal incorrectly).

It is, as she said, about looking greedy and presumptive, same as the roll. Cutting up all one's food (I've never seen an adult do that), would also look daft as the day is long. I think that falls in the finger licking territory, in that I'd tell people after the fact. Like 'I was at dinner with these people and this guy cut up all his food into little bits like an anorexic, it was so weird.'

So there is no logic; it's pure judgmentalism followed by gossip. Okay, then. . .

 

[Wendy31]

I'm a southern gal, & table manners were drummed into me for as long as I can remember. What my own mother didn't teach me, I learned from my best friend's mother who was also like a mother to me.

And I'm trying diligently to instruct our own kids. Table manners are just... nice & show class, &, IMO, speak volumes about an individual.

Anyway, I know about the bread & butter thing. Plus, I hardly ever (practically never) put butter on my bread - too many extra calories!

However, my own "what am I supposed to do moment" is this...

I'm sitting here & trying to remember what I actually do w/ a roll or piece of bread - as in, do I break off a piece & then eat it or do I just bite into the roll. I think I do a combination of both actually - depending on the bread & the restaurant.

We frequent one Italian restaurant where the rolls have garlic & butter/oil already on them - so, if I were to break a piece off w/ my fingers & then eat the piece I broke off, my fingers are actually getting messier than if I just bite into the bread - but then, of course, my roll lies on the plate w/ a bite out of it. Aack!!!

However, at another restaurant, I will break off a bite-sized piece of bread & then eat the piece - because the bread's not messy/greasy.

One of my restaurant pet peeves - when the server takes away our bread plates when she brings the entrees.

(Confession: Unless I'm at a fine dining establishment, I don't cut my sandwiches or hamburgers or pizza slices before biting into them. However, if I'm at a nice restaurant, I'm not ordering a sandwich, hamburger, or pizza anyway.)

 

[cornflake]

So there is no logic; it's pure judgmentalism followed by gossip. Okay, then. . .

What? It's basic manners.

One should not be greedy. How is that 'judgementalism' and not basic good manners?

If you put out a bowl of fruit salad at your house, do you allow one kid to shovel half of it onto his or her plate, or pick out all the strawberries or what have you? I'm guessing you don't, because it's bad manners.

Why is it bad manners? Because it's greedy. You do not take more than you are going to eat at that particular time and you do not monopolize any particular foodstuff in general.

In addition - as concerns the roll - to that you do not shove giant things into your mouth or put half-eaten things back on a plate.

 

[cornflake]

I'm a southern gal, & table manners were drummed into me for as long as I can remember. What my own mother didn't teach me, I learned from my best friend's mother who was also like a mother to me.

And I'm trying diligently to instruct our own kids. Table manners are just... nice & show class, &, IMO, speak volumes about an individual.

Anyway, I know about the bread & butter thing. Plus, I hardly ever (practically never) put butter on my bread - too many extra calories!

However, my own "what am I supposed to do moment" is this...

I'm sitting here & trying to remember what I actually do w/ a roll or piece of bread - as in, do I break off a piece & then eat it or do I just bite into the roll. I think I do a combination of both actually - depending on the bread & the restaurant.

We frequent one Italian restaurant where the rolls have garlic & butter/oil already on them - so, if I were to break a piece off w/ my fingers & then eat the piece I broke off, my fingers are actually getting messier than if I just bite into the bread - but then, of course, my roll lies on the plate w/ a bite out of it. Aack!!!

However, at another restaurant, I will break off a bite-sized piece of bread & then eat the piece - because the bread's not messy/greasy.

One of my restaurant pet peeves - when the server takes away our bread plates when she brings the entrees.

(Confession: Unless I'm at a fine dining establishment, I don't cut my sandwiches or hamburgers or pizza slices before biting into them. However, if I'm at a nice restaurant, I'm not ordering a sandwich, hamburger, or pizza anyway.)

I think if you have good manners, you do, so you're probably dealing with it appropriately.

In general, you always break a roll into pieces. If it's a like, garlic bread type situation, I've taken a piece and then broken that piece into smaller from underneath, if that makes sense - then even if you have a, say, two-bite piece you can hold and finish it's more appropriate than picking up and putting down a half-eaten thing. That's what I'd do.

 

[Coconut36]

So there is no logic; it's pure judgmentalism followed by gossip. Okay, then. . .

I agree. Honestly some of these things like cutting up your meat or buttering your roll are beyond ridiculous. Who really cares? I can tell you it would reflect poorly on anyone who lectured me as to how many pieces of meat I could cut or if I buttered too large a piece of bread/roll. I would think they were a fool and likely not want to associate with them anymore...that is just petty and silly. If that person choose to do that..that is fine. To get bent out of shape if others does is silly.

I can understand issues that might be reflected as hygienic or might be deemed reasonably unappetizing while eating (blowing nose, picking teeth, spitting out food..etc) but beyond that I think in this day and age we are beyond some of the more old fashioned and more useless "rules".

Things like meat cutting and roll butter are NOT basic manners. Basic manners is not spitting out food or picking your teeth, eating neatly/quietly.

 

[Art 1]

I agree. Honestly some of these things like cutting up your meat or buttering your roll are beyond ridiculous. Who really cares? I can tell you it would reflect poorly on anyone who lectured me as to how many pieces of meat I could cut or if I buttered too large a piece of bread/roll. I would think they were a fool and likely not want to associate with them anymore...that is just petty and silly. If that person choose to do that..that is fine. To get bent out of shape if others does is silly.

I can understand issues that might be reflected as hygienic or might be deemed reasonably unappetizing while eating (blowing nose, picking teeth, spitting out food..etc) but beyond that I think in this day and age we are beyond some of the more old fashioned and more useless "rules".

Things like meat cutting and roll butter are NOT basic manners. Basic manners is not spitting out food or picking your teeth, eating neatly/quietly.

Someone with manners would not lecture you, that would be rude. They would just know that you didn't know any better and may not want to associate with you.

 

[Coconut36]

Someone with manners would not lecture you, that would be rude. They would just know that you didn't know any better and may not want to associate with you.

Oh no..someone with "manners" would instead just be judgmental and snotty behind your back. That's true class, isn't it?

On my radar of qualities I seek in my friends their knowledge of bread buttering or meat cutting etiquette doesn't even register. Such useless and unimportant things to be concerned with.

 

[Minnesota!]

I hate noisy eaters. I cannot listen to ANYONE eat. It makes my skin crawl. At work I have to put my headphones on at lunch time and blast my music. It's really bad.

Nose blowing, flossing, teeth sucking are over the top for me. I have a friend who flosses her teeth at the table...then eats the stuff OFF the floss when she is done! I call her out on it EVERYTIME but it's how she was raised - he dad does the same thing!!!!! EEEEEEEWWWWW.

My grandmother wrote the etiquette/manners column for the NY paper for years....and I can guarantee you she didn't do the butter/bread thing. She was the BEST cook and I still remember her the big hot rolls she would make with pot roast. Nothing better than diving right into those.

Elbows don't bother me, neither does the napkin thing. My kids picked it up somewhere, though, because I never taught them! I don't do it, that's for sure!!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Someone with manners would not lecture you, that would be rude. They would just know that you didn't know any better and may not want to associate with you.

I agree, Art1.
Anyone who knows the etiquette of dining could naturally be expected to know the etiquette of, well, etiquette. They wouldn't say anything - that would be bad manners - but they would think less of the person making the errors.

Just as the bulk of the posters in this thread appear to think less of dining partners who do things while eating that offend the posters .

 

[TheIncredibles!]

I agree. Honestly some of these things like cutting up your meat or buttering your roll are beyond ridiculous. Who really cares? I can tell you it would reflect poorly on anyone who lectured me as to how many pieces of meat I could cut or if I buttered too large a piece of bread/roll. I would think they were a fool and likely not want to associate with them anymore...that is just petty and silly. If that person choose to do that..that is fine. To get bent out of shape if others does is silly.

I can understand issues that might be reflected as hygienic or might be deemed reasonably unappetizing while eating (blowing nose, picking teeth, spitting out food..etc) but beyond that I think in this day and age we are beyond some of the more old fashioned and more useless "rules".

Things like meat cutting and roll butter are NOT basic manners. Basic manners is not spitting out food or picking your teeth, eating neatly/quietly.

Nobody is lecturing anybody about how much meat they cut. However that does not mean that people that have better table manners won't take notice. Ditto for the bread.

Only on the DIS would people get their knickers in a twist and then blame the other side when they find out they are not as proper as they thought they were.

 

[AverageDiser]

I agree. Honestly some of these things like cutting up your meat or buttering your roll are beyond ridiculous. Who really cares? I can tell you it would reflect poorly on anyone who lectured me as to how many pieces of meat I could cut or if I buttered too large a piece of bread/roll. I would think they were a fool and likely not want to associate with them anymore...that is just petty and silly. If that person choose to do that..that is fine. To get bent out of shape if others does is silly.

I can understand issues that might be reflected as hygienic or might be deemed reasonably unappetizing while eating (blowing nose, picking teeth, spitting out food..etc) but beyond that I think in this day and age we are beyond some of the more old fashioned and more useless "rules".

Things like meat cutting and roll butter are NOT basic manners. Basic manners is not spitting out food or picking your teeth, eating neatly/quietly.

I agree, and would go further and say that frankly, I'd have no desire to have any type of relationship with someone who would judge me on how I eat a roll. What I consider "infantile" is someone who would sit across from me at a meal, silently condemn me in their head for not eating my bread "properly" and then go tell all their friends how crass my manners were.

I think the reason the whole bread issue has gotten so controversial is because a few have implied that anyone who didn't know that was a rule of etiquette must have been raised by wolves. Personally I think there's a difference between casual/family and fine dining etiquette, and while I'm sure there are those that think fine dining etiquette is necessary all the time, I disagree. I also wouldn't judge someone who hasn't been exposed to fine dining and/or the etiquette involved, or assume that everyone's had the same advantages as myself in being exposed to it.

 

[Coconut36]

Nobody is lecturing anybody about how much meat they cut. However that does not mean that people that have better table manners won't take notice. Ditto for the bread.

Only on the DIS would people get their knickers in a twist and then blame the other side when they find out they are not as proper as they thought they were.

I never said what I did..I said things of that petty nature are ridiculous to make judgey judgey gossip about. Picking your teeth and spitting out food..sure. How big a piece of bread someone butters is a very silly thing to quote you "get your knickers in a twist" over.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Oh no..someone with "manners" would instead just be judgmental and snotty behind your back. That's true class, isn't it?

Not wanting to associate with someone, or actually not associating with them, because something they do offends you or your sensibilities, isn't "be[ing] judgmental and snotty behind [their] back".

It's interesting how it's acceptable to so many posters to be offended by 'common' annoyances - but when a rule of etiquette is unfamiliar, it's not okay for breaking it to offend the posters it bothers I don't see anyone giving a poster a hard time for being offended by elbows on the table.

 

[Coconut36]

I agree, and would go further and say that frankly, I'd have no desire to have any type of relationship with someone who would judge me on how I eat a roll. What I consider "infantile" is someone who would sit across from me at a meal, silently condemn me in their head for not eating my bread "properly" and then go tell all their friends how crass my manners were.

I think the reason the whole bread issue has gotten so controversial is because a few have implied that anyone who didn't know that was a rule of etiquette must have been raised by wolves. Personally I think there's a difference between casual/family and fine dining etiquette, and while I'm sure there are those that think fine dining etiquette is necessary all the time, I disagree. I also wouldn't judge someone who hasn't been exposed to fine dining and/or the etiquette involved, or assume that everyone's had the same advantages as myself in being exposed to it.

Very well said.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Nobody is lecturing anybody about how much meat they cut. However that does not mean that people that have better table manners won't take notice. Ditto for the bread.

Only on the DIS would people get their knickers in a twist and then blame the other side when they find out they are not as proper as they thought they were.

 

[ilovemk76]

I use the white tablecloth to wipe my mouth... is that wrong? I though it was a big napkin...

Yes you are wrong. The white tablecloth is for blowing your nose.

 

[Coconut36]

Not wanting to associate with someone, or actually not associating with them, because something they do offends you or your sensibilities, isn't "be[ing] judgmental and snotty behind [their] back".

It's interesting how it's acceptable to so many posters to be offended by 'common' annoyances - but when a rule of etiquette is unfamiliar, it's not okay for breaking it to offend the posters it bothers I don't see anyone giving a poster a hard time for being offended by elbows on the table.

Because it is a very very petty point of etiquette and does not present a hygienic issue or result in others being unable to eat (like teeth picking or open mouth chewing). Of all things one has to worry about in life the way someone butters bread or cuts their meat really shouldn't register. It doesn't impact ones ability to consume their own meal or their appetite. Those are understandable in regards to forming feelings about dining with someone..bread and meat aren't.

And you apparently didn't get it..I was told that oh no..someone who followed etiquette/had manners wouldn't tell you to your face you were crass and raised by wolves..instead they would judge you and gossip about your behind your back as has been stated/implied by others. That isn't classy at all.

 

[crazyme5kids]

I don't worry about any other adults table manners but my own. I worry about my children's table manners, but not someone else's child's table manners.

I'd rather focus on enjoying my meal and having a pleasant time with my dining companions, than on their less than impeccable manners. Hopefully they extend the same courtesy towards me .

 

[cornflake]

I agree. Honestly some of these things like cutting up your meat or buttering your roll are beyond ridiculous. Who really cares? I can tell you it would reflect poorly on anyone who lectured me as to how many pieces of meat I could cut or if I buttered too large a piece of bread/roll. I would think they were a fool and likely not want to associate with them anymore...that is just petty and silly. If that person choose to do that..that is fine. To get bent out of shape if others does is silly.

I can understand issues that might be reflected as hygienic or might be deemed reasonably unappetizing while eating (blowing nose, picking teeth, spitting out food..etc) but beyond that I think in this day and age we are beyond some of the more old fashioned and more useless "rules".

Things like meat cutting and roll butter are NOT basic manners. Basic manners is not spitting out food or picking your teeth, eating neatly/quietly.

Lecturing you about it, or even mentioning it to you, would be terrible manners.

No one is saying they'd tell other adults they had bad manners, people were just discussing that they've seen or been put off by bad manners. If you're not, you're not, that's fine, no one is saying you need to be.

To those of us raised with these things as basic table manners, yeah, they're basic table manners and yes, we notice when people don't use them. Wouldn't call a person out or anything of the sort. As I said, wouldn't mostly even register as particularly odd.

Some stuff - adults licking fingers or cutting all their food up into little bites before they begin - I have never seen and would, yes, register to me as odd enough I'd mention it to people after the fact. I dunno, if you saw someone on a plane like, change their shirt, couldn't it come up? Like 'how was your flight?' 'Fine, oh, but this guy, it was so weird, he changed his shirt sitting in his seat, it was bizarre.'

That's all. 'how was dinner with those people?' 'Fine, but oh, this guy...'

 

[ilovemk76]

Someone with manners would not lecture you, that would be rude. They would just know that you didn't know any better and may not want to associate with you.

Exactly.

I was always taught if your guest did something that was incorrect, such as not putting their napkin on their lap, we were to do what they did as to not draw attention to their mistake.