~ SURVIVOR Samoa ~ Season 19 ~

And since they knew that Natalie made it to the final three you think they would have able to edit the show to make her appear to be a stronger player. But there was no THERE there.

You took the words out of my mouth!

We saw Russell's gameplay, the good and the bad. I feel certain they did not omit Natalie doing something wonderful as she was in the final 3. I imagine if they had edited some wonderful gameplay out, she would have spoken about it to the jury OR live last night. But nothing except ousting Erik and killing a rat. Those were her highlights. It came down to a social choice, and they held ill-will towards Russell. Plain and simple. It was a social victory for Nat. She won at being nice.
 
I was surprised they didn't interiew John at all. He seemed to have a great handle on the whole game. He understood his team and that they weren't "players". Then, the fact that he was the other vote for Russell proves that he recognized that he was "outwit and outplayed" and gave credit where credit was due. I would have liked to hear what he had to say last night!
 
I haven't been able to check since my last post and the few Russel supporters were saying that he outwit, outplayed and outlasted ... he wasn't the sole survivor, so he didn't outlast. He did outplay, but he didn't outwit.

Understand, we only see about 20 minutes in a 24 hour day. Natalie was probably talking to the Galus to try to figure out where they were coming from and what their mindset was. Russel should have spent more time GENUINELY talking to Galu members to figure out how they would vote in the jury much earlier in the game as Natalie obviously had already done. Russel was played by Natalie. He was outwitted by her because he thought she was no threat to him. That's the only reason he "brought her" to the finals with him. Well Russel, look who got blindsided just like you blindsided everyone else!!

Eric was one of the best players in the game and he was voted off. No one was complaining then because it was "part of the game." Well, knowing your jury is also a part of the game and Russel obviously didn't know his jury at all. Otherwise he would have been more humble at tribal council and could have given credit to some of his tribe members who helped him as well. Russel didn't do it on his own just like no Survivor does it on their own. So this coat tail talk is BS. Mick winning immunity, Natalie getting rid of Eric, Russel finding hidden immunity idols, etc. all kept Russel, Mick, and Natalie in the game. Russel was so full of himself and busy staring at his reflection in the water that he didn't realize that he was helped into the finals by others as well.

As someone else said, we will all have to agree to disagree. I thoroughly enjoyed this season of survivor and can't wait for 20.

What you fail to realize is that Nat and Mick were there because Russell decided he wanted them there. He could have deemed them worthless earlier in the season and gotten rid of them just as easy as he kept them. Any player with that kind of power is the sole survivor.
 
What you fail to realize is that Nat and Mick were there because Russell decided he wanted them there. He could have deemed them worthless earlier in the season and gotten rid of them just as easy as he kept them. Any player with that kind of power is the sole survivor.

And I believe Jeff pointed out that this was Russel's fundamental failing, last night. had Russel taken Jaison and Shambo, he'd be a million dollars richer. Gotta live with those choices Rusty.
 

And I believe Jeff pointed out that this was Russel's fundamental failing, last night. had Russel taken Jaison and Shambo, he'd be a million dollars richer. Gotta live with those choices Rusty.

Wrong again my friend. Russell was the best player and it shouldn't matter who he took, he was better than all of them. You still didn't respond to my earlier point about a player who can control who he goes to the finals with is deserving of the title of sole survivor.
 
Wrong again my friend. Russell was the best player and it shouldn't matter who he took, he was better than all of them. You still didn't respond to my earlier point about a player who can control who he goes to the finals with is deserving of the title of sole survivor.

That question has been answered by others. Control whatever you want, but if the voting jury doesn't like you, you get bupkiss my friend.

That's Survivor.

And I'm not "wrong". ONE, it's my opinion, and TWO Jeff polled the jury last night and they would've voted in favor of Russel over Jaison and Shambo.
 
That question has been answered by others. Control whatever you want, but if the voting jury doesn't like you, you get bupkiss my friend.

That's Survivor.

And I'm not "wrong". ONE, it's my opinion, and TWO Jeff polled the jury last night and they would've voted in favor of Russel over Jaison and Shambo.

It doesn't matter! That's Monday Morning quarterbacking. Hindsight is 20/20. Ever heard of that?

Jaison and Shambo, Jaison and Shambo. Mick and Nat aren't any better than Jaison and Sham. It wouldn't matter if Russ had taken Brett and Monica to the final 3. He should have won regardless!!!!!!!

The point is and I just don't know how many times I'll have to say it before it sinks in. Russell controlled everything in this game down to a T, and any player who wields that kind of power, deserves to win the game. Yes the jury was bitter and decided to take out their frustrations on Russell but it doesn't change the fact that Russell was the best player. America agreed! So did the producers as he was invited back for Heroes and Nat wasn't, neither was Mick, Jaison, Dave, Monica, Laura, Erik, the list goes on.
 
Correct. No one had seen his game play yet. BUT that may also cause them to vote him out early, "the unknown" villian.

Here is one article about the Tsunami and filming
http://www.tvtonight.com.au/2009/09/survivor-safe-distance-from-disaster-in-samoa.html

When they did Fans Vs. Favorites, nobody had seen Amanda or James season yet and they both did pretty well in Fans vs. Favorites. At least that season, nobody seemed to care about the unknowns. It will be interesting to see what they do this time.
 
Speaking of crybabies, OMG, Erik needs to get over this! I thought tears were going to start rolling down his eyes!! ***?:confused3

If you ask me, Eric was plastered.

:confused3 what was the jury thinking? Sour grapes for his better game play? This has to be the most disappointing final vote ever - a jury of idiots.

Worst. Jury. Ever.
 
It doesn't matter! That's Monday Morning quarterbacking. Hindsight is 20/20. Ever heard of that?

Jaison and Shambo, Jaison and Shambo. Mick and Nat aren't any better than Jaison and Sham. It wouldn't matter if Russ had taken Brett and Monica to the final 3. He should have won regardless!!!!!!!

The point is and I just don't know how many times I'll have to say it before it sinks in. Russell controlled everything in this game down to a T, and any player who wields that kind of power, deserves to win the game. Yes the jury was bitter and decided to take out their frustrations on Russell but it doesn't change the fact that Russell was the best player. America agreed! So did the producers as he was invited back for Heroes and Nat wasn't, neither was Mick, Jaison, Dave, Monica, Laura, Erik, the list goes on.


It's certainly a valid opinion.

I agree the jury was bitter. Not arguing you on that at all. But I'm beyond thrilled that Russ didn't win.

As for the Monday morning Quarterbacking (yes, I'm familiar with the term. No need for snark), I am sure Russell is doing plenty of that today.
 
I am thrilled Russell didn't win. He was so wrpped up in himself - even at the finale show he couldn't get over himself. I still believe that the end does not justify the means and I thinik the jury believed that too. Survivor (sometimes) reflects real life and sometimes the bad guys fail, no matter how clever they are.

I know this is sappy, but its just the way I am. If I was on the jury, I would never give Russell my vote. Not because I was mad that he played a better game than me, but because of his nastiness, hatred of women (at least it seemed that way), and his bragging. I think you have to be a little likable for the jury.

Maybe that was one of the not so smart moves he made - too much talking and bragging. He was so full of himself - he gave Natalie some ideas of what to say to the jury - or at least the foresight to prepare. He was a smart player and I give him credit for that - he just should have kept his mouth shut - not so smart.
 
I am thrilled Russell didn't win. He was so wrpped up in himself - even at the finale show he couldn't get over himself. I still believe that the end does not justify the means and I thinik the jury believed that too. Survivor (sometimes) reflects real life and sometimes the bad guys fail, no matter how clever they are.

I know this is sappy, but its just the way I am. If I was on the jury, I would never give Russell my vote. Not because I was mad that he played a better game than me, but because of his nastiness, hatred of women (at least it seemed that way), and his bragging. I think you have to be a little likable for the jury.

Maybe that was one of the not so smart moves he made - too much talking and bragging. He was so full of himself - he gave Natalie some ideas of what to say to the jury - or at least the foresight to prepare. He was a smart player and I give him credit for that - he just should have kept his mouth shut - not so smart.

Hatred of women?? Like when he almost cried when his wife said what a great husband and father he was. Yea I know what you mean :confused3
 
What you fail to realize is that Nat and Mick were there because Russell decided he wanted them there. He could have deemed them worthless earlier in the season and gotten rid of them just as easy as he kept them. Any player with that kind of power is the sole survivor.

Damn are you related to him or something? :lmao: He LOST. Having all the power means nothing if you get to the final vote and the jury doesn't like you. He LOST and I loved it. Not, I absolutely LOVED seeing him LOSE. Nothing better than seeing an arrogant SOB fail and get knocked down a few notches. Russell was very entertaining, great at manipulating people, and had a good strategy, but I still hated him and am glad he lost. :woohoo:

Congrats to Natalie, I was glad she won!

But Either way, in my book NOBODY really "deserves" to win $1,000,000 for living in the jungle for 7+ weeks.
 
I haven't been able to check since my last post and the few Russel supporters were saying that he outwit, outplayed and outlasted ... he wasn't the sole survivor, so he didn't outlast. He did outplay, but he didn't outwit.

Understand, we only see about 20 minutes in a 24 hour day. Natalie was probably talking to the Galus to try to figure out where they were coming from and what their mindset was. Russel should have spent more time GENUINELY talking to Galu members to figure out how they would vote in the jury much earlier in the game as Natalie obviously had already done. Russel was played by Natalie. He was outwitted by her because he thought she was no threat to him. That's the only reason he "brought her" to the finals with him. Well Russel, look who got blindsided just like you blindsided everyone else!!

Eric was one of the best players in the game and he was voted off. No one was complaining then because it was "part of the game." Well, knowing your jury is also a part of the game and Russel obviously didn't know his jury at all. Otherwise he would have been more humble at tribal council and could have given credit to some of his tribe members who helped him as well. Russel didn't do it on his own just like no Survivor does it on their own. So this coat tail talk is BS. Mick winning immunity, Natalie getting rid of Eric, Russel finding hidden immunity idols, etc. all kept Russel, Mick, and Natalie in the game. Russel was so full of himself and busy staring at his reflection in the water that he didn't realize that he was helped into the finals by others as well.

As someone else said, we will all have to agree to disagree. I thoroughly enjoyed this season of survivor and can't wait for 20.


Yes! Exactly! Russel felt to admit that he was there because of them too, they didn't put his name down when they could.
But he was too busy being arrogant.

He got blindside by Natalie ouch!
 
I am thrilled Russell didn't win. He was so wrpped up in himself - even at the finale show he couldn't get over himself. I still believe that the end does not justify the means and I thinik the jury believed that too. Survivor (sometimes) reflects real life and sometimes the bad guys fail, no matter how clever they are.

I know this is sappy, but its just the way I am. If I was on the jury, I would never give Russell my vote. Not because I was mad that he played a better game than me, but because of his nastiness, hatred of women (at least it seemed that way), and his bragging. I think you have to be a little likable for the jury.

Maybe that was one of the not so smart moves he made - too much talking and bragging. He was so full of himself - he gave Natalie some ideas of what to say to the jury - or at least the foresight to prepare. He was a smart player and I give him credit for that - he just should have kept his mouth shut - not so smart.


Indeed! I felt kind of bad for him, but the game is like that. I noticed that when they got the food and Natalie was cooking, Russel was like a Lion, walking around in circles nagging them about how they should tell the jury that HE deserved to win.
Russ mentality is all about him, look at me, I'm the best, me me me.He is a great player, but he needs to keep it to himself. He can't, he has to brag about it and there you have it.
 
Any list without Russel's name is about as meaningful as a piece of used toilet paper.

I know this has been asked (and I think answered). When did Season 20 wrap up filming?

I agree. He put his heart into playing Survivor the way it should be played. I think he was in shock.

I think that's the main point. True, he could have handled it better, but I truly believe that there were only two other players who lived and breathed the game like Russell did. One was the other Rob from Boston Rob's season and I can't recall who, but there was a player (maybe it was fans vs. favorites) who watched Survivor from the beginning when he was a kid. I think Russell really put his heart into playing the game and couldn't deal with the shock of losing. It wasn't about the money for him. It was about the game.

I agree with both of these, and that's why Russell lost. To be soooo cocky about everything, I'm sure that ticked off a lot of the jury, even if they were willing to admit that he outplayed everyone else.

What Jaison said about it being like an office and the diff. personalities working on a team.......THAT's why Russell lost and Natalie won.

Problem is, they didn't see half of what we saw. Most of his cockiness came out in the interviews, not during the tribal councils. Russell kept up a pretty good front in front of the other players.

FYI, the 2nd vote came from John.

Ironic that it was only Shambo and John that voted for Russell, the two players that seemed to really understand the game.

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THANKS EVERYONE FOR JOINING IN THE SURVIVOR FUN!!!
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Total Posts: 1,066


gometros 11

Must . . . do . . . better next season :goodvibes

Slightly off topic question. I was thinking of something I don't think was ever mentioned in these threads during the 19 seasons I've been watching. At the tribal councils, the jury is dressed to the nines. For those of you who have watched the Ponderosas (and I really have to get into the habit of doing that) where do the clothes come from? Do they bring it with them when they first depart for the beginning of the show or do they purchase clothes some time after they are voted off? I mean, they've all lost weight during the game, so their normal clothes would be big on them until they regain the weight. I guess this s more of an overall logistics question of what happens from the time the contestants leave home to when the game is over.
 
He may have lost the game but he'll win at life. His business is going to really take off now with all the publicity he's gotten. He'll probably make more next year than Nat and Mick will make combined during their entire lives! :rotfl2:
What exactly does Russel do? I know he owns a oil company, but is it like an oil company that delivers heating oil to homes?
 
Another good article from NPR. The writer makes some excellent points (mostly discussed here already) about why Natalie won and, more to the point, why Russell lost.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2009/12/survivor_crowns_a_winner_offen.html

Love the title many "who do not understand survivor".

You bet!

"who couldn't come close to backing up his endless speeches about his own genius."

his alliance-mate, who played a much quieter and more respectful game in which, compared to Russell, she thought a lot more about winning the money and a lot less about getting the most camera time.


(Yes, you would be left with the fact that he found a couple of immunity idols, now that the show has stopped burying them or really hiding them and has started hiding them in near-plain-sight. This is not "mastermind" play. This is being good at scavenger hunts.)


And all Russ wanted was to be HIM who founded the idols, he wanted people to say wow, Russ found it. Again all about him.
He couldn't keep it to himself he had to go and brag about it, so people could say that wow, you are the best.


It was Natalie, in fact, who pulled off the single most difficult and significant maneuver of the season: getting a much larger eight-person alliance that was facing her four-person alliance to turn on one of its own, which ultimately fractured it permanently. She had an absolutely unassailable claim to the title. She made the single most important move of the game.


Much of Russell's bragging, on the other hand, was about the two most meaningless, obvious boots of the season: the first two. The first person sent home was an aggressive young woman perceived as physically weak and disliked by several members of her team. The second was a 48-year-old female police officer, also perceived as physically weak and not very comfortable socially with a bunch of young bartender types. These are the same two kinds of people -- annoying young women and older women -- who go first in every other season. They'd have gone anyway. But because neither of them believed anything Russell said, he put this toward his legacy: "They were onto me, so they're gone now!"


Here's the problem: Just about everybody was onto him. There are perhaps two people all season (Shambo and Ashley) who thought Russell was telling them the truth. Everyone else knew the entire time when he was lying and when he wasn't.

Everybody else he approached with handshakes and secret deals expressed frequently their belief that those secret deals probably meant nothing. Whoever went, whenever they went, it was easy for Russell to say, "That person was a threat to me, because he didn't believe me, so I had to get rid of him!" When everybody thinks you're full of it, it's pretty easy to argue that there's a perfect record of eliminated players being the ones who think you're full of it.



In retrospect, it's fairly obvious what happened: Russell hooked himself to three people -- Natalie, who won; Mick, who's a doctor; and Jaison, who's a Fulbright Scholar -- all of whom knew that he would run around all season acting like a jerk, but figured if they remained in a nice, solid four-person alliance with him, they had a decent chance of getting to the end, and when they got there, the jury would probably dislike him and vote for someone they liked better. This is basically exactly what happened. This is how smart people play if they're confronted with an attention-hogging personality eager to align with them. And, in fact, the best way of all to do it is to be the person the attention hog feels least threatened by, because he'll be trying to make sure it's you he's up against at the end. Natalie, in short, played Russell perfectly, as it turned out, and understood how their alliance would be perceived.


Russell, on the other hand, thought that when he sat in front of a bunch of people who didn't like him, he would be able to say, "I was in charge and made the most noise, so you should vote for me." He was completely, utterly, totally mistaken.

Exactly how I felt when he opened his mouth and "explained" the jury, how he was the mastermind and how you are there because what I did was so genius and I deserve you to honor me with the price, like if he had won a marathon. Big mistake. you don't order the jury what to do.


Second of all, there is no such thing as a "best player" other than the player who gets people to vote for him or her. It is an intrinsic part of Survivor to play to a jury in a way that gets them to vote for you. It's the hardest, most mysterious part of the game. Winning challenges is easy; understanding what somebody will do with his or her vote is hard. If she hadn't been trying to make sure she would do well in the final vote, Natalie would have played entirely differently. Everybody else in Russell's alliance tailored their performance to that final vote. He didn't. He forgot, or mishandled, the entire last step of winning the game. Natalie both played in such a way that she got to the end and played in such a way that people voted for her. Russell played in such a way that he got to the end and then got two votes. Like it or not, for all players, this game ends with a final challenge called Get The Most Votes. If you stink at that challenge, you deserve not to win.



Third of all: If you're a juror, you don't have to put aside anything! You have the ultimate power of your own reckless, irrational whimsy! That is the absolute essence of the game. The essence of being a juror on Survivor is that you can do whatever you want. The fact that some jurors vote out of a twisted sense of "respect," some vote out of resentment, some vote out of loyalty, and some vote because they think one person needs the money more? That's the game. Those are the rules, and everybody knows them, and everybody has the same opportunity to take them into account and play accordingly.



Interestingly, this season has been compared to the eighth season, which was an "All-Star" season, where the final two were Rob and Amber, a couple who fell into a pattern that was in some ways similar: he was far more aggressive and mouthy; she was quieter and more passive. The difference between Rob and Russell (other than that Rob got four votes and almost won, while Russell got two votes and didn't) is that Rob knew the entire time what he was doing. He never believed he was going to walk in there, say "I did all the work," and be handed a bag of money. He thought that might work on some people, but he knew other people would never vote for him. He played in the only way he could, with a pretty solid understanding of the gamble he was making, and hoped for the best. He lost the gamble, but he wasn't deluded. (Furthermore, everybody acknowledged that Rob genuinely did make most of the decisions, which Russell didn't; some of the votes for Amber seemed to be spite votes against Rob because he ran the show. The votes for Natalie seemed more based on a personal dislike of Russell's obnoxious, sexist, bullying behavior and a genuine affection for Natalie.)




Russell, on the other hand, lectured and taunted Natalie and Mick before the final tribal council about how everyone was going to vote for him, how he would make them look like fools if they even tried to defend themselves. He insisted that he had it in the bag. In short, he had no idea how he was perceived. His social skills are, despite the "manipulative mastermind" narrative the show tried so hard to present, very, very poor. That's why he sat at the reunion show almost in tears over not winning. He was stunned and shocked that his plan didn't work, because it never occurred to him that other people didn't think he was as great as he thought he was. It never occurred to him that other people correctly read his bluster as bluster; that his alliance was saying, "Oh, yeah, buddy, you're the big genius, I'm sure you'll win" and then turning around and rolling their eyes when he walked away.

It never occurred to him that he was being simultaneously used by three other people, all of whom had the same plan to let him bluster and brag and make himself someone nobody wanted to give money, and then to grab the money right out from under him, taking advantage of his enormous blind spot when it comes to social relationships. Ultimately, one of those three people had the game go precisely as she planned.

How, exactly, is this not deserving to win?


It never occurred to him because he is an egocentric narcissist who can see beyond his nose. At the end he wasn't so smart after all. :rolleyes1
 
I don't know how I feel about Natalie winning.

Russell rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but he played with passion.
He fought for it, whether it was by finding immunity idols with no clues, or making pivotal decisions in the game, he was fighting.
He was also very clever, wearing that immunity idol around his neck as a threat, was just amazing.
I think Natalie and Mick made him take the beating while they sat safely behind him on his coattails.

It was very emotional for him when he didn't win. I don't think it was about the money either, he seemed to have a real respect and passion for the game, that was unparalleled to any other survivor contestant I have ever seen. He hardly complained about the conditions, and he was loyal to his Foa Foa.

Natalie was underestimated, but I just don't think she deserved the title of "sole survivor" when she certainly didn't survive on her own.

It was hard to see Russell so upset, and if I were Natalie I would have given him what he asked her for. The title "sole survivor" because he was the show this season. The sole reason people turned on their televisions to watch. I don't think there were any other characters who made you hate them so much you actually like them and root for them in the end.

I loved what his wife had to say about him. I really think he is different outside of the game, and it would be interesting to see previous footage of him. I was also pleased that America gave him the 100,000 bucks, because that shows that he was the best player in our eyes.

I wonder too if he already had filmed season 20 and maybe he was more upset because he already knew he lost that one too...
 












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