Surrogacy for convenience

[TipsyTraveler]

Excellent use of the Strawman Logical Fallacy. That is, taking a true statement and stretching it to the nth degree so that it's no longer realistic.

Certainly some people have lasting issues from pregnancy, but that's not typical. Raising any child takes decades.

You think it’s not realistic to say pregnancy can cause complications, sometimes severe and/or lasting, up to and including death? As discussed earlier in the thread, the medically recognized period of time for a body to fully heal from a normal, uncomplicated birth is a year+, so that alone negates your claim that pregnancy is over and done in less than a year. Each pregnancy will affect a woman for closer to two years time, and that’s assuming everything goes well.

In any case, it’s laughable to me that you think potty training and teaching your child to drive are the hardships of parenting, “more difficult than the most difficult pregnancy.” You’re seriously minimizing a lot of women’s (sometimes traumatizing) experiences when you try to argue that what they went through medically couldn’t have been worse than having to help a 3rd grader with homework or putting a 2 year old on the toilet.

Something no one's mentioned is that LOTS of kids "in the system" need homes.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), the majority of kids “in the system” are not available for adoption because they’re being held in foster care with the goal being reunification with their parent(s). The kids can spend years bouncing around, in and out of care, while their parent works on getting their life together so they can get their child back. If a parent doesn’t want to give up custody, they don’t have to. If it gets to a point where a court actually steps in and severs a parents rights, the court would look far and wide to place the kid with anyone even a little bit biologically related before allowing them to be adopted by a stranger. When I looked into domestic adoption, I learned only 25% of fostered children would ever become available for adoption. The rest are in a parental rights purgatory. And all that is only one of the hurdles to adoption. It’s not actually true that there are tons of available children just waiting for someone to come along and adopt them. Relatively few children are even available and it’s not an easy process, at all.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Something no one's mentioned is that LOTS of kids "in the system" need homes.

It's not something I had thought about. The other poster however is correct according to sources I found as well. If you go through the foster care system your chance of adopting a child is listed as basically 25% since the foster care system is primarily designed to maintain the familial bond.

Private adoption (or also called domestic infant adoption) can fast track depending on one's luck for lack of a better term the time and odds of getting the child but those children are not in the system. Private adoption as we know (and have threads and oodles of stories to go back on) carries high risk of backing out, parental right issues and other things.

From what I can find it's typically cheaper to go through foster care system than private adoption although not without its costs. Foster care adoptions typically will have government aid though.

Private adoptions costs very quickly add up and on the topic of paying for surrogacy private adoptions often include paying the mother although that often comprises of living expenses, any travel costs, prenatal care and other medical expenses especially if you go with an agency and enlist the aid of an attorney which substantially increase those costs. From what I could find from adoption(.org) "Overall, the cost to adopt with an agency ranges from $30,500 to $48,500. To adopt independently, the cost ranges from $25,000 to $38,000." Independent means not going through an agency but going through private adoption. That said I do believe private adoption still qualifies for the Adoption Tax Credit but you would want to make sure you're eligible and have the appropriate information and documentation before relying on that to reduce your overall burden.

There may be kids in the public foster care system but not a lot that are eligible for adoption. And other typically faster ways are like one could typically assume more costly aka in part ones that as you put it "even a poor person.."

 

[LSUmiss]

I suppose being anonymous on a message board makes it easier to spill your true thoughts that's about all I got.

Meh I’m pretty straightforward irl too. Just more I wouldn’t bother commenting on it unless asked. If you recall, op ended her original post with “thoughts?” So I gave mine b/c had nothing better to do.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I’m pretty straightforward irl too.

I believe you to be a honest person in your thoughts regardless of whether I agree with them or not. When you reply to someone who called you close-minded by acting like this is just a thread to fill your day up and you don't give it a second thought your comments all bely that

If you had said "I have enough tact not to openly let loose my judgmental thoughts that I reserve the right to have" (as you've reminded us in this thread you will judge, you reserve the right to judge, etc) when presented with being called closed-minded that would have made sense to me. Decorum I get. Instead it was "Wouldn’t give it a second thought other than hypothetically discussing it on this board for lack of anything better to do with my time today." and for that I found it to be a disingenuous comment thus my response. In any case we both appear to have gotten our points across, agree to disagree and move on

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It's not something I had thought about. The other poster however is correct according to sources I found as well. If you go through the foster care system your chance of adopting a child is listed as basically 25% since the foster care system is primarily designed to maintain the familial bond.

Private adoption (or also called domestic infant adoption) can fast track depending on one's luck for lack of a better term the time and odds of getting the child but those children are not in the system. Private adoption as we know (and have threads and oodles of stories to go back on) carries high risk of backing out, parental right issues and other things.

From what I can find it's typically cheaper to go through foster care system than private adoption although not without its costs. Foster care adoptions typically will have government aid though.

Private adoptions costs very quickly add up and on the topic of paying for surrogacy private adoptions often include paying the mother although that often comprises of living expenses, any travel costs, prenatal care and other medical expenses especially if you go with an agency and enlist the aid of an attorney which substantially increase those costs. From what I could find from adoption(.org) "Overall, the cost to adopt with an agency ranges from $30,500 to $48,500. To adopt independently, the cost ranges from $25,000 to $38,000." Independent means not going through an agency but going through private adoption. That said I do believe private adoption still qualifies for the Adoption Tax Credit but you would want to make sure you're eligible and have the appropriate information and documentation before relying on that to reduce your overall burden.

There may be kids in the public foster care system but not a lot that are eligible for adoption. And other typically faster ways are like one could typically assume more costly aka in part ones that as you put it "even a poor person.."

There is also embryo adoption. (Embryos cannot be sold, they must be donated. We donated some of ours that we were not going to use instead of discarding them. And going back to conversations about others criticizing, we were criticized for this, as well, even from some in our own families. It was not an easy or lighthearted decision and it took years and jumping through a lot of hoops to make it happen.)

This explains embryo adoption pretty well.

https://embryoadoption.org/2015/11/why-embryo-donation-doesnt-come-with-compensation/

 

[TipsyTraveler]

It's not something I had thought about. The other poster however is correct according to sources I found as well. If you go through the foster care system your chance of adopting a child is listed as basically 25% since the foster care system is primarily designed to maintain the familial bond.

Private adoption (or also called domestic infant adoption) can fast track depending on one's luck for lack of a better term the time and odds of getting the child but those children are not in the system. Private adoption as we know (and have threads and oodles of stories to go back on) carries high risk of backing out, parental right issues and other things.

From what I can find it's typically cheaper to go through foster care system than private adoption although not without its costs. Foster care adoptions typically will have government aid though.

Private adoptions costs very quickly add up and on the topic of paying for surrogacy private adoptions often include paying the mother although that often comprises of living expenses, any travel costs, prenatal care and other medical expenses especially if you go with an agency and enlist the aid of an attorney which substantially increase those costs. From what I could find from adoption(.org) "Overall, the cost to adopt with an agency ranges from $30,500 to $48,500. To adopt independently, the cost ranges from $25,000 to $38,000." Independent means not going through an agency but going through private adoption. That said I do believe private adoption still qualifies for the Adoption Tax Credit but you would want to make sure you're eligible and have the appropriate information and documentation before relying on that to reduce your overall burden.

There may be kids in the public foster care system but not a lot that are eligible for adoption. And other typically faster ways are like one could typically assume more costly aka in part ones that as you put it "even a poor person.."

Yes to all of this and I just wanted to add two more points.

We don’t have wars and famines in this country that leave children orphaned and we have social safety nets that allow parents in poverty to keep and feed their children, unlike other parts of the world. And thank god for that. What it means, though, is that children in this country only end up in foster care due to extreme family dysfunction that results in the child being removed from the home. Sadly, that means these kids have usually experienced some really awful things by the time they end up placed in foster care and that often comes with trauma issues and behavioral problems. I did not, as a person with zero parenting experience, think I was qualified to take that on when I was looking at options for starting a family. I give all the credit in the world to people who are capable of doing that very necessary service, but I was looking to build my “first” family with children with whom I could learn as I went, who didn’t have a history on unpleasant issues to overcome, and who did not have a 75% chance of being taken away from me after months or years of caring for them.

I also looked into private adoptions and felt most dejected by the reality that, A) prospective adopters basically create a portfolio of themselves that then sits in a binder at the adoption agency waiting to be picked by a birth mother and, B) that portfolio could sit there for 10 or more years before it’s chosen, or it may never be picked. My husband and I were in our mid-thirties and spending 5+ years trying to adopt with no guarantee of success would essentially mean we lost any chance to have a family by the natural means if adoption fell through.

Then there’s international adoption and that’s its own can of worms…

There is also embryo adoption. (Embryos cannot be sold, they must be donated. We donated some of ours that we were not going to use instead of discarding them. And going back to conversations about others criticizing, we were criticized for this, as well, even from some in our own families. It was not an easy or lighthearted decision and it took years and jumping through a lot of hoops to make it happen.)

This explains embryo adoption pretty well.

https://embryoadoption.org/2015/11/why-embryo-donation-doesnt-come-with-compensation/

What on earth could people find to criticize about embryo donation? Good grief. If you’ve got any spares you’re welcome to send them to me and I’ll promise to keep it a secret from the haters. We were going to try for one more but all my eggs are proving to be duds.

 

[mousefan73]

To imply that pregnancy is dangerous and there was a real threat of death is definitely straw man fallacy. Now if we’re talking about a woman who has known health issues and is high-risk that’s a different story. But for a healthy woman to put fear in her head that getting pregnant is risking her life it’s a bit over done. Might as well tell that woman to stay home all day because driving to work would be deadly.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

To imply that pregnancy is dangerous and there was a real threat of death is definitely straw man fallacy. Now if we’re talking about a woman who has known health issues and is high-risk that’s a different story. But for a healthy woman to put fear in her head that getting pregnant is risking her life it’s a bit over done. Might as well tell that woman to stay home all day because driving to work would be deadly.

I don’t think straw man fallacy means what you think it means. And death isn’t the only complication of pregnancy one may wish to avoid.

Speaking of death, 861 women died as a result of pregnancy in 2020, the most recent year for which I can find info. (The maternal death rate in this country is rising, btw.) For a little perspective, that’s more than twice as many women dead than police officers killed in the line of duty for the same year, which happened to be the second worst year for police in recorded US history. Going by that data, it’s more dangerous to be pregnant than it is to be a police officer. (Sources at bottom.)

But let’s not forget the women who only nearly die. (Resident DISer nurse @Pea-n-Me told of her own experience earlier in this thread.) Roughly another 50,000 women every year suffer dangerous and/or life threatening complications as a result of pregnancy:

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/22/5722...-preventable-complications-are-growing-in-u-s

Then, of course, there’s untold numbers of women who deal with less serious, but still unpleasant, complications that impact their quality of life. I’m happy for every woman out there who had easy, uncomplicated pregnancies and recoveries, but can we please stop acting like that’s the case for everyone? Or that it’s somehow wrong for a woman to decide she doesn’t want to take the chance to find out which statistical category she would fall into?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm
https://nleomf.org/memorial/facts-figures/officer-fatality-data/officer-deaths-by-year/

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

To imply that pregnancy is dangerous and there was a real threat of death is definitely straw man fallacy. Now if we’re talking about a woman who has known health issues and is high-risk that’s a different story. But for a healthy woman to put fear in her head that getting pregnant is risking her life it’s a bit over done. Might as well tell that woman to stay home all day because driving to work would be deadly.

There is no "imply", pregnancy does carry risks to all women. It has nothing to do with putting fear in someone's head. This isn't some fear mongering tactic or conversation. No one should ignore the risks (yes risks that healthy women also experience).

During the conversation posters haven't tried to straw man stuff, what they have been reacting to is comments that pregnancy was the easy part and child raising the hard part. With that the health complications (dire ones as well) and changes to one's body naturally would be used as a counterpart. I gather the issue was that people were referring to the act of labor and act of being pregnant as easy (since this starts as a surrogacy conversation) in comparison to the act of raising a child (perhaps thinking about time commitment) but the ramifications to pregnancy shouldn't be ignored in favor of thinking that.

You can look up CDC data on their mortality surveillance data. I think I was honestly surprised to see that from 2014-2017 the second leading cause was infection or sepsis, cardiomyopathy coming in a close enough third and hemorrhage coming in a close enough fourth. That's not even getting into reviewing race and ethnicity because we can't ignore how our medical system treats Black women differently for example. Posters discussing health complications or ramifications aren't saying every pregnancy out there leads to death or serious health complications but rather that these are things women should be aware of and can experience themselves. To me it would be irresponsible to not consider my health when making decisions, we do it every day anyways from maintaining a healthy lifestyle to doctor check ups to even things like self breast examinations. We are told time and time again to keep up with our health, early detection, etc. Why should pregnancy be any different in reviewing, knowing and understanding?

 

[TLSnell1981]

Surrogates are not usually first time pregnancies. It's much smarter and safer to proceed with a candidate who has had a previous successful childbirth. Also multiples are often present higher risks than single births. IVF often produces multiples. It's not necessarily an easy experience for surrogates.

 

[Dreams&wishes]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

 

[PezRuth]

Just to chime in on a few things here. I have an 11 year old daughter pregnancy itself was okay. Emergency c-section at 37 weeks. Then three years later, I delivered a stillborn daughter at 23 weeks. Turns out that my body decided it was ready to go into labor at 23 weeks. She did not survive. I had to deliver her. As you can imagine it was horribly traumatic. I did decide to try again two years later and had a miscarriage at 6 weeks. Then a year later, I was pregnant again. I had a procedure done at 13 weeks (cerclage) to help with the pregnancy. Ended up on bedrest from 23 weeks to 29 weeks. She arrived healthy (mostly) at 35 weeks. I still have some health problems six years later with that delivery.

My point with sharing all of this is. For some woman pregnancy is easy. For many others it is very very difficult - physically, emotionally. Stillbirths and miscarraiges are not talked about enough. I am very open about it because I think it is important for everyone to understand what that experience is like. But that is my choice to be open with it.

My overall point is no one should judge me on my decisions related to my pregnancies or even if I wanted to have kids or not. It is not my business if she wanted to use a surrogate. She did what worked for her family. That is all that matters.

And finally, some people love being pregnant. I hated it. I love my children and wouldn't change that for the world but being pregnant was not fun for me. That is not talked about enough.

 

[jrmasm]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

True mother? And by your definition, all adoption is cruel and selfish?

Oh boy

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

I assume you feel the same way about adoption in which case a woman chooses to give up her child? Or in the case of legislation a woman is legally required to carry a baby and give birth but has no intention of keeping the child? Or in some cases there would be potential health issues to the child due to the child being a result of incest (which laws do not always give exceptions to). Although I'm not truly intending to open a can of worms such that is difficult to talk about here on the Boards it's more considering instances in which your reasoning seems broad but would only be selectively used despite the exact issues being present in all.

As to the true mother comment I can only assume you do not consider biology at all and rather are only considering who carried the child (be that someone initially unknown to someone or a mother, sister, cousin, friend).

 

[PezRuth]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

So many things about this post bother me.

 

[mjkacmom]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

What?! My babies were just as close to my husband as they were to me. i don’t think babies can smell anything in the womb, but if so, I hope me on the outside doesn’t smell like me on the inside.

 

[TippyThomas]

As someone who was adopted I find some of this rather depressing. I had no idea my mother wasn't good enough for some people.

 

[msjprincess]

Personally I find surrogacy extremely cruel for the baby and incredibly unjust for the true mother, as it takes advantage of poor disadvantage women.

The only thing the baby knows when he is born is the sound of the voice/heart and smell of their mother. The baby stops crying once is give to their mother as he knows her and is reassured by her. He has spent 9months inside her. And here we have people separating the baby from who he knows to be his mother for Money and selfishness?

I can't believe this is actually legal is some countries.

Wow.

How do you feel about fathers and adoptive parents?


I wasn't able to hold my babies for hours after birth. They were handed to my husband.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

As someone who was adopted I find some of this rather depressing. I had no idea my mother wasn't good enough for some people.

Don’t think that way. If you found a loving home, then that is the really important thing.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Wow.

How do you feel about fathers and adoptive parents?


I wasn't able to hold my babies for hours after birth. They were handed to my husband.

As were mine. But I was never more proud of him - he finally got a chance to get to work and he did an amazing job!

(And my babies were no worse for it; in fact, it was the beginning of an amazing relationship with their Dad. )