sure wish parents would watch their kids

[leahgoogle]

Ok, so in the name of science about the subjects of this thread, I asked my 19-year-old son if he had any issues with my parenting over the years. I will say he was "swatted", "spanked" (whatever you want to call it), but not beaten a few times when he was little. He said doesn't remember it. He said he has had no negative effects from my tendency to yell either. There we go, the science is settled He actually went a little further and said that from the way he has seen kids act today, some probably need some "swatting". So, the thread has gone full circle....lol.

 

[dreamer17555]

I have to speak up about the idea that ASD kids might need harsh or strict environments to thrive, especially ones with physical punishment. I am glad it worked for you @WEDcryoHEAD , however as someone with an ASD kiddo and one with ADHD neither of mine needed that type of physical punishment to make them learn how to behave.

I have seen many, many child specialists and not once was that type of reinforcement encouraged. It honestly makes me feel sick to know this is being encouraged for children that sometimes can't even speak for themselves or often don't speak up about how they are treated. My own son was bullied badly at school, we only found out because a group of girls reported it. I am very big into engaging him but he never said a word. Many ASD kiddos have a hard time with feeling words and the idea to encourage physical punishment for those who could might not speak up (or can't speak up as my son was non verbal till three) about if it turns abusive is mind blowing to me.

Structure- absolutely is needed especially at the beginning to help establish safety and behavioral expectations but that can be done by setting clear boundaries and consequences (If we are hitting we will need to sit down with mom and work on keeping our hands kind and calming down) Also you cannot hit an ASD kiddo out of certain behaviors or stimming tics. My son will rock when overstimulated. If I were to yell or hit him it would cause him to regress further. Not to connect more.

Considering how often normal parents can become emotionally dis-regulated and lash out (yell, hit, etc) while parenting neurotypical children I cannot believe that advising physical punishment be given out by parents that have the added stress of a special needs child...

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

We all have to remember that humans have been having and rearing children for millions of years. We have only had experts and studies and the pressures of media, social or corporate for the last century and a half. A responsible parent will instinctively know what is best for their children. We need to stop relying on the input of others to validate our actions or bolster our confidence. Life is not a constant, there are no predetermined absolutes of right or wrong. We as humans are in a constant state of learning and trial and error. Have confidence in yourself as a parent, respect your children as the precocious human beings they are and just be the adult in the room so to speak. Your children will respect you more for it.

 

[leahgoogle]

That’s how puppies learn not to bite hard.

Most definitely! How else would they learn. When my mom first met our puppy she put her mouth over his muzzle briefly and said that it was what his mom did to establish alpha status. I thought she was crazy, but he does not play rough with her like he tries to do with the rest of us.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I can tell from some of the posts here that we have a wide range of parenting styles.

It would be a lot easier to discern this sitting in a line queue watching this play out than it is reading about it, perhaps.

I think the best example of this we’ve seen here is the example about the hair pulling. And note that the poster who brought it up said that a hunk of a sibling’s hair was being pulled out, so it was, IMO, beyond the average ponytail tug.

That poster said she spanked the child.

Then another poster came along and said that in a similar circumstance, she hugged and rocked the hair pulling child after guiding their hand away from the hair.

Very, very different styles.

We’ve never going to solve all the problems that come along with day to day parenting here in this discussion. It’s a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type thing when you’re in the moment, and often exhausted, etc.

I read lots of parenting books when I was in the planning stage of parenting. Once I had twins I hit the floor running, and, especially as a working Mom, I didn’t thereafter have a lot of time to read parenting books. Or take classes. That’s probably not the reality for mos.

Although DH and I weren’t in the habit of regularly hitting our kids, I do remember a shoving match we had one time over the bassinet of one of our babies when both of us were beyond the exhaustion that it took to get up again yet one more time in the middle of the night when our bodies needed sleep, which we hadn’t had much of in weeks. We never dreamed we’d be capable of anything like that, but it happened, and we joke about it today. That’s what happens to many parents.

I used to wonder before I had kids when I heard people say they couldn’t get in the shower all day. What?? How could that be? Until one Christmas Eve when I was home alone with my babies trying to get ready to go out, and all of a sudden, it was me! 3pm and still in my sleepwear trying to get us all ready! I remember giving my DS a bath in a bucket when he pooped in the water. Eek! Ok, put him on a bath blanket safely in his crib and go and change the water, etc., and try again. Oops, it happens again! And now the other baby is crying. Hey, I’m working up a sweat here! Lol.

Honestly @mjkacmom I don’t know how you did it with five! Respect!

I also have a lot of respect for parents who have special needs children. It’s got to be tough.

And all the books in the world can’t really help when you’re in some of these moments as a frazzled parent.

 

[BrianL]

Yep, challenging them would require them to think and be self-retrospective. Not possible for many people.

Well, we wouldn't want anybody thinking for themselves, now would we?

 

[sam_gordon]

I think the best example of this we’ve seen here is the example about the hair pulling. And note that the poster who brought it up said that a hunk of a sibling’s hair was being pulled out, so it was, IMO, beyond the average ponytail tug.

That poster said she spanked the child.

Actually, I think the poster said the spanking would have been the next step, but they didn't need to get that far.

 

[piccolopat]

Someone earlier said in part "No...the massive majority of experts on child psychology (many of whom I'm sure have children) find that spanking children has long-lasting effects on their emotional and cognitive development."

The problem is that studies are sometimes skewed to produce a certain result and over time other studies may come to a different conclusion. This is what people have to remember. The experts today may be proven wrong tomorrow. Here's a great example. At one time the experts KNEW that stomach ulcers were caused by stress and eating spicy foods. That was settled science until scientists in Australia discovered that the real culprit was a kind of bacteria. It took them some time for the proof to be accepted but it eventually was and they won a Nobel prize. The settled science was suddenly turned upside down.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Actually, I think the poster said the spanking would have been the next step, but they didn't need to get that far.

Correct. I also misunderstood it the first time I read it.

 

[tzolkin]

We all have different opinions regarding what’s harmful to children. None of us knowingly do things to intentionally harm our kids.

I'm not sure why you're disagreeing. That's exactly what I just said we could all agree on in the post you quoted.

If you believe spanking is harmful/wrong, then you choose to not do it. If you believe that there is no harm (and is instead beneficial), then you may do it. Both parents are trying to do what they think is best for their children with the information they believe is correct.

Isn’t it conceivable that our parents (and theirs before them) went by what they were told was best during their time as parents?

And not only that, but twenty, thirty or forty years from now, that we may learn that some of the current advice that we’re going by was also wrong?

Absolutely. I feel like many people (on both sides) have brought this up throughout the thread.

Our parents and grandparents did all sorts of things that we now know are harmful or dangerous. I don't think anyone faults them for making the best decisions they could at that time with the information they had available to them. I certainly don't think my grandma was a "bad" parent for things like not using car seats or smoking during pregnancy because she did not know better or the safety items were not even available at that time. But, now that she knows those are not safe, she wouldn't insist that other new moms do the same just because that's the way she did it or because her kids "turned out fine".

Research and societal norms change over time. I think that's why this thread is so controversial. Some people are very set in the fact that something changing over time is somehow bad. Or that if you disagree with something that was the norm in the past that you are somehow vilifying or insulting your predecessors.

There are lots of areas where I have learned and grown throughout my lifetime. If I were to have a baby today, there are definitely things I would do differently than my 17-year-old self did with my first. My children have told me that they think I was an excellent mom, we have a close relationship, and they are all happy/successful/well adjusted. But even though I think I did a good job, I'm certain that there are things that I could do better with the new information/skills/life experience that I have learned in the decades since then. If my opinions and behaviors have changed over the course of 25 year or so, it seems logical that there will be changes in parenting beliefs and techniques over the course of multiple generations.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

I have to speak up about the idea that ASD kids might need harsh or strict environments to thrive. I am glad it worked for you @WEDcryoHEAD as someone with an ASD kiddo and one with ADHD neither of mine needed that type of physical punishment to make them learn how to behave.

I have seen many, many child specialists and not once was that type of reinforcement encouraged. It honestly makes me feel sick to know this is being encouraged for children that sometimes can't even speak for themselves or often don't speak up about how they are treated. My own son was bullied badly at school, we only found out because a group of girls reported it. I am very big into engaging him but he never said a word. Many ASD kiddos have a hard time with feeling words and the idea to encourage physical punishment for those who could might not speak up (or can't speak up as my son was non verbal till three) about if it turns abusive is mind blowing to me.

Structure- absolutely is needed especially at the beginning to help establish safety and behavioral expectations but that can be done by setting clear boundaries and consequences (If we are hitting we will need to sit down with mom and work on keeping our hands kind and calming down) Also you cannot hit an ASD kiddo out of certain behaviors or stimming tics. My son will rock when overstimulated. If I were to yell or hit him it would cause him to regress further. Not to connect more.

Considering how often normal parents can become emotionally dis-regulated and lash out (yell, hit, etc) while parenting neurotypical children I cannot believe that advising physical punishment be given out by parents that have the added stress of a special needs child...

These are all great points as well. As I said, all children are different and no two situations are the same. Certainly if you have a child that will shut down, tick, or rock and not be able to self calm, then obviously this will not be recommended. Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is just that a very broad spectrum. There are infinite degrees of severity. Children who are non verbal or who struggle with comprehending language or even physical stimuli, which many do. Actually many more struggle with physical stimuli than those who don't and I would never recommend corporal punishment for those who can't understand what it occurring. I did not mean for my comments to be a catch all and especially not when it comes to children who can fall into a myriad of different placing along the very very broad spectrum. I am sure what you are doing and what you have been taught works for you and your children. I would just offer a word of advice and just ask you to not assume that what works for you is what every parent in the world should be doing when it comes to their own unique circumstances.

Myself, I am very mild on the ASD scale and to be honest I have suffered way more with the ADHD side of things. So in my life, I acted out a lot and needed that type of correction. I truly needed it. I would not have learned to be a functional adult without it. Of that I am certain. MY ASD is limited to minor issues with socialization and recognizing facial cues and things like whit and sarcasm. (although apparently I do not lack when it comes to using such tools, I'm told). I also have severe anxiety in large crowds, if I feel like I'm being focused on or counted upon, if that makes any sense. I also found during the pandemic that I really suffer with communication on mediums like Zoom and Micro-soft Teams. A little weird. Not surprisingly I excel behind a screen, with no web cam and communicating via keyboard.
I applaud you for being defensive of your children and your parenting skills and also championing all children in general. Being the parent of children with ASD or ADHD or both is difficult, to say the least. I would think that you can also assume that I myself have also reared a child who falls into this category, genetics and all. I respect you and your opinion and wish you nothing but the best for you and your family.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Most definitely! How else would they learn. When my mom first met our puppy she put her mouth over his muzzle briefly and said that it was what his mom did to establish alpha status. I thought she was crazy, but he does not play rough with her like he tries to do with the rest of us.

Haha I’m not sure I’d do that with a dog, or recommend anyone else doing it, for safety reasons. Getting bitten in the face by a dog is no fun.

If you watch a mama dog with their puppies it’s a quick correction, like a little bite or nip, with some noise that also signals displeasure, and even a stare - not putting a mouth directly over a muzzle.

Mother dogs correct if the pup pushes too far; not just with her, but sometimes with siblings. This is why it’s good to keep pups with their moms until these lessons become established. Taking a pup away too early may rob the pup of these important natural lessons that help make it a good canine citizen.

Of course, it’s also good that human people they wind up with don’t encourage biting behavior, either, which a lot of people do, even unintentionally. Which really isn’t fair to the pup or dog.

If you don’t want a dog to learn it’s ok to bite, teach them bite inhibition. It’s a beautiful thing.

We have a rescue dog now that we’ve been working on this with. Someone before us let him chew on hands. We’ve replaced hands with a chew toy that we’re teaching him is ok to chew on instead, and we’ve got it probably 85% corrected, but it’s still a work in progress. Not sure why anyone would encourage a German Shepherd to bite on hands but it happens.

 

[leahgoogle]

Haha I’m not sure I’d do that with a dog, or recommend anyone else doing it, for safety reasons. Getting bitten in the face by a dog is no fun.

If you watch a mama dog with their puppies it’s a quick correction, like a little bite or nip, with some noise that also signals displeasure, and even a stare - not putting a mouth directly over a muzzle.

Mother dogs correct if the pup pushes too far; not just with her, but sometimes with siblings. This is why it’s good to keep pups with their moms until these lessons become established. Taking a pup away too early may rob the pup of these important natural lessons that help make it a good canine citizen.

Of course, it’s also good that human people they wind up with don’t encourage biting behavior, either, which a lot of people do, even unintentionally. Which really isn’t fair to the pup or dog.

If you don’t want a dog to learn it’s ok to bite, teach them bite inhibition. It’s a beautiful thing.

We have a rescue dog now that we’ve been working on this with. Someone before us let him chew on hands. We’ve replaced hands with a chew toy that we’re teaching him is ok to chew on instead, and we’ve got it probably 85% corrected, but it’s still a work in progress. Not sure why anyone would encourage a German Shepherd to bite on hands but it happens.

Yes, we learned quickly that puppy teeth become sharp teeth! We researched and give a chew toy as a replacement for hand biting. It works most of the time unless he is really wound up. If that happens we remove ourselves from the situation. That's awesome that you have been able make improvements with your rescue. German Shepherds are very intelligent!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yes, we learned quickly that puppy teeth become sharp teeth! We researched and give a chew toy as a replacement for hand biting. It works most of the time unless he is really wound up. If that happens we remove ourselves from the situation. That's awesome that you have been able make improvements with your rescue. German Shepherds are very intelligent!

He is, and he’s a real sweetheart, but he gets excitable sometimes, and when he gets that way, it’s his way of playing. We were kind of horrified because we‘ve been strict about bite inhibition with our other dogs. I’d say more, but it’s for another thread, I suppose.

Actually, I think the poster said the spanking would have been the next step, but they didn't need to get that far.

Correct. I also misunderstood it the first time I read it.

Ah, thanks. Will take your word for it. I guess my point was that, as I was reading, a spank seemed like a reasonable option to me in that situation. I related less to holding and rocking the child, which, to me, anyway, almost seemed like a reward. But that just exemplifies how styles can be very different (special needs notwithstanding).

Here’s a question - what happened to the hair pullee in that situation? Presuming she was in a lot of pain and probably crying (since that poster did mention there was a possibility of scarring and such, which was a really serious problem).

Btw @TipsyTraveler I’m so sorry to hear your experience has shied you away from dogs right now. It sounds like you have your hands pretty full at the moment, but I hope that, in the future, if you decide to get another dog, that you can find a one who’s a good fit with your family.

 

[mom2rtk]

I can tell from some of the posts here that we have a wide range of parenting styles.

It would be a lot easier to discern this sitting in a line queue watching this play out than it is reading about it, perhaps.

I think the best example of this we’ve seen here is the example about the hair pulling. And note that the poster who brought it up said that a hunk of a sibling’s hair was being pulled out, so it was, IMO, beyond the average ponytail tug.

That poster said she spanked the child.

Then another poster came along and said that in a similar circumstance, she hugged and rocked the hair pulling child after guiding their hand away from the hair.

Very, very different styles.

We’ve never going to solve all the problems that come along with day to day parenting here in this discussion. It’s a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type thing when you’re in the moment, and often exhausted, etc.

I read lots of parenting books when I was in the planning stage of parenting. Once I had twins I hit the floor running, and, especially as a working Mom, I didn’t thereafter have a lot of time to read parenting books. Or take classes. That’s probably not the reality for mos.

Although DH and I weren’t in the habit of regularly hitting our kids, I do remember a shoving match we had one time over the bassinet of one of our babies when both of us were beyond the exhaustion that it took to get up again yet one more time in the middle of the night when our bodies needed sleep, which we hadn’t had much of in weeks. We never dreamed we’d be capable of anything like that, but it happened, and we joke about it today. That’s what happens to many parents.

I used to wonder before I had kids when I heard people say they couldn’t get in the shower all day. What?? How could that be? Until one Christmas Eve when I was home alone with my babies trying to get ready to go out, and all of a sudden, it was me! 3pm and still in my sleepwear trying to get us all ready! I remember giving my DS a bath in a bucket when he pooped in the water. Eek! Ok, put him on a bath blanket safely in his crib and go and change the water, etc., and try again. Oops, it happens again! And now the other baby is crying. Hey, I’m working up a sweat here! Lol.

Honestly @mjkacmom I don’t know how you did it with five! Respect!

I also have a lot of respect for parents who have special needs children. It’s got to be tough.

And all the books in the world can’t really help when you’re in some of these moments as a frazzled parent.

We were all much better parents before we had kids.

And much respect for anyone parenting multiples!

 

[DISerg]

I'd never allow my kids to act like that on a bus. But, if there were other empty seats, and no one was standing, they weren't kicking or touching anyone else, who cares? As far as the boy being on top of the girl, have you ever watched kids wrestle around and play? At that age, my boys would have played like that and I promise they'd never seen anything like what you are inferring. Thats just how kids play when they are wrestling around. The fact that your mind went there has nothing to do with the kids or the parents.

Now this is totally different. If there are others needing seats then yeah, it's def rude to allow your kids to take up that much space.

I just don't get the judging parents for stuff like this. It's one thing if its causing harm to others or being disrespectful to others or something. But just because you don't think it's proper? And to assume that if their kids had gotten hurt they'd go after Disney? Are some people like that, sure. But I'm a big fan of the phrase "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". If my kids get hurt doing something stupid, it's no ones fault but theirs or mine. And most people I know are the same.

Also, there are plenty of times where it seems like I'm not paying attention to my kids, but I am. I'm aware of what they are doing. Sometimes I'm making a choice to let them work something out on their own, or learn a lesson the hard way because listening to mom is just too easy. Sometimes parents just get tapped out, especially after a long day at Disney, and you look at your kids and say they aren't hurting themselves, or anyone else, it's not worth the fight.

This is my least favorite part of parenting. Knowing no matter what I do, or which tactic I choose to deal with a kid situation, if it's in public, someone is judging me. I'm either too nice, or too harsh, or let it go too long, or should have just let them play or whatever. It's exhausting.

Love this post. Well said.

 

[dreamer17555]

Ah, thanks. Will take your word for it. I guess my point was that, as I was reading, a spank seemed like a reasonable option to me in that situation. I related less to holding and rocking the child, which, to me, anyway, almost seemed like a reward. But that just exemplifies how styles can be very different (special needs notwithstanding).

As I pointed out in that comment, my son has special needs. For him being made to sit in a single space, even with me offering comfort to him, is absolutely not anywhere close to a reward. He would grab and pull because he was extremely frustrated (he was non verbal till he was 3, almost 4) and me meeting him with anger vs calm would have escalated the situation. He learned not to pull and grab without needing to hit him or yell at him.

I agree that parenting styles are very different, part of that is because of our own upbringings being different and part of that is because our children are all very different.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

All I could think of with the bus story was teeth trauma/avulsion!



In our family, on a bus, you sit down.

For that matter, in a restaurant, you sit down.

No running around.

Has the thinking changed on that these days?

Cause I know injuries haven’t.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

@dreamer17555 I tried to send you a private message, but I do not appear to be able to. I certainly hope I have not offended you in any way with my comments during this discussion. Your comments show you to be extremely thoughtful and articulate. (unfortunately, I generally am not) I am in no way questioning you parenting or asserting that you are not a qualified parent. I hope this is not how my comments sounded. You are for sure a wonderful person who has been an exceptional mother to your children. Please excuse me if I offended you. I am trying to make Disney connections, not alienate nice folks.

I am told I should keep my comments to a more basic nature, especially when they contain personal opinions. (my wife). At 50+ I still need to be told some things.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

@dreamer17555 I tried to send you a private message, but I do not appear to be able to. I certainly hope I have not offended you in any way with my comments during this discussion. Your comments show you to be extremely thoughtful and articulate. (unfortunately, I generally am not) I am in no way questioning you parenting or asserting that you are not a qualified parent. I hope this is not how my comments sounded. You are for sure a wonderful person who has been an exceptional mother to your children. Please excuse me if I offended you. I am trying to make Disney connections, not alienate nice folks.

I am told I should keep my comments to a more basic nature, especially when they contain person opinions. (my wife). At 50+ I still need to be told some things.

Welcome to the boards. It’s important to hear differing viewpoints. I’m glad you’re here and helping us to see there’s another side. Thank you.