sure wish parents would watch their kids

[Bianca and Bernard]

Not the poster you quoted, but I do enjoy people watching just because there's such an endless variety of humans. People are interesting. It really isn't anything more or less than that.



I was never by myself because I grew up in a neighborhood full of kids with similar rules, but we were walking home from school starting in K. Not so much to school because of the early hour, it being still dark for a chunk of the school year, and parents being available to drop off on their way to work. But quite a few of us walked home together from the time we started school. Now the school I went to actively discourages walkers; only 4th and 5th graders are allowed to leave without their pick-up person, there are no more crossing guards, and they closed off the walking path that let us bypass the busy street and go straight into our residential area from the playground.

When DH and I bought out house, we were actively looking for a place where kids still have more of the freedom we had as kids. We didn't want the kids growing up with the "never out of an adult's sight" rules that have come to dominate the communities where we both grew up. But even here, it isn't without controversy. My kids have had friends who aren't allowed to walk to school, to play at the park in later elem, to go to the beach as teens, etc. A couple of DD14's friends come from families that don't start allowing the kids unsupervised time away from home until they start driving!

When DS was in 5th grade, we moved to a new house, where there was a boy his age next door. The boy was not allowed to walk to our house without a parent walking him over, for the first year we were there. You couldn't see our front door from their yard (it was set back in a small alcove), but you could see up to that alcove. The ends of our driveways were literally less than 2 feet apart.

They started allowing him to walk over, when the boys were in 6th grade, but they would watch him. He'd have to call if he was leaving our house, so that they could come and watch for him. Again....literally next door. The only other option was if I were to go outsid and watch him until he got home, then they'd come out and wave to say they had him. Kid had a physical disability, but not one that stopped him from walking or any regular movement. He just couldn't jump or wrestle (until he had surgery while they were in junior high, but the boys had stopped being friends by then; then the parents divorced and mom moved the boys away).

 

[leahgoogle]

Oh good grief. I'm sorry you were an abused child. No need to project. I was spanked a couple times as a kid I have no emotional hang ups over it. I can't recall ever smacking my kids. I'm more of a yeller which isn't much better, but kids can drive you to the brink.

Same here. I was spanked a couple times. I had/have no fear and love my parents deeply. Also, my Mom said she yelled a lot. You know what? I don't remember it because the loving parenting she exhibited overrode that. I would guess that the majority of kids who were spanked (I'm talking swatted, not beat) are fine.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I certainly hope my kids don't hold me to that standard.

Why not? Who wouldn't want to be held accountable for their actions? Do we not teach children they are accountable to their actions and tell them as they age the world too will hold them accountable for their actions? Are you saying you're above this? That your relationship with your children isn't open to feedback and honest conversation regarding their feelings? It's a bit of a mixed signal here. If your children felt in any way that something you did however minor it was really got to them why would you not want them to tell you this? I would think parents would want to be held to a standard otherwise I'm not sure what kind of person that ends up becoming and generally we frown upon those in society who refuse to be held accountable for their actions and would rather stay blissfully unaware.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Your original post didn't say you didn't consider them "good" parents... you said they shouldn't BE parents (at least that's how I read it)...

I literally said “that is not what I would consider a “good” parent.”

My comment:

“The detrimental effects of spanking have been established and known for at least 30 years. Anyone today who is choosing to use practices that are that outdated despite knowing better methods are available is not prioritizing their child’s well-being and that is not what I would consider a “good” parent, no.”

Now, did I misunderstand what you said? I've asked multiple times to clarify what you were trying to say.

Perhaps? I don’t know where the confusion is. My comment about sticking with houseplants was in response to the conversation up to that point where people had discussed shaking babies, kids triggering a furiousness in you that nothing else can, the assumption that childcare professionals would also resort to physically lashing out… I said if child behavior can push someone over the edge like that, they might be better off sticking to houseplants. In the interest of clarity, let me go ahead and throw down this bold opinion for all to see: Anyone who thinks a crying baby will make them feel so much anger or frustration that they’d be tempted to shake the baby until they cause brain damage should get a philodendron instead.

Now, some paragraphs from the article you linked to (I didn't want to copy this much, but I think it's all relevant)...

Yes, as @Mackenzie Click-Mickelson (I believe it was) mentioned earlier in the thread, there will always be a handful of outliers in the world of research who don’t agree with the main body of evidence. Personally, I tend to believe the majority and, in any case, I’ll choose to err on the side of caution and abstain from using techniques that may negatively impact my child’s mental health, especially when less controversial options are readily available to me.

 

[PezRuth]

And I think the majority, by far, of parents DO try to do right by their kids. Unfortunately, there are people (you at least) who feel, because they don't make the choices others think are correct shouldn't be parents.

Why can't you just come out and say it? I've asked you twice... do you think someone who has spanked their kids should not be a parent?

So I will answer this. Someone who has spanked their kids absolutely can be a parent but there are much better ways to handle discipline. I would hope that parent would want to continue to try and do better for their kids and for themselves. I was spanked as a kid. Yes, I am fine but was it the right way to handle punishment no I don't think it was and I do not spank mine.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yes, as @Mackenzie Click-Mickelson (I believe it was) mentioned earlier in the thread, there will always be a handful of outliers in the world of research who don’t agree with the main body of evidence. Personally, I tend to believe the majority and, in any case, I’ll choose to err on the side of caution and abstain from using techniques that may negatively impact my child’s mental health, especially when less controversial options are readily available to me.

I haven't even touched on it but it may be a detail missed by those not researching, in 1975 APA came together and made their resolution that corporal punishment should not be used in various educational and caregiving institutions. The effects were already starting to be known. After that states started banning the usage also. I believe (and don't quote me on this) 19 states still allow it and they allow it because the Supreme Court ruled this was a state by state decision. But it was very clear that majority of states took swift action on the banning of it.

I believe the private vs public life of our society is why things were much much slower to get to on the home life.

A quick reference here (created in 2008 but the resolution was done in 1975) https://www.apa.org/about/policy/corporal-punishment

 

[sam_gordon]

Perhaps? I don’t know where the confusion is. My comment about sticking with houseplants was in response to the conversation up to that point where people had discussed shaking babies, kids triggering a furiousness in you that nothing else can, the assumption that childcare professionals would also resort to physically lashing out… I said if child behavior can push someone over the edge like that, they might be better off sticking to houseplants. In the interest of clarity, let me go ahead and throw down this bold opinion for all to see: Anyone who thinks a crying baby will make them feel so much anger or frustration that they’d be tempted to shake the baby until they cause brain damage should get a philodendron instead.

Then it sounds like I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to people who spanked shouldn't be parents. Since that's not what you meant, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

Sometimes I wish the kids would watch the parents. Since WDW started selling alcohol, I have seen some abhorrent behavior from adults. Even adults with their children, not just young adults without children

 

[lowlight]

I literally said “that is not what I would consider a “good” parent.”

You also said this.

I lack what perspective? What it’s like to be so overwhelmed and unable to cope with my kids that I lose control and common sense and start physically lashing out at them? If child behavior has the ability to push you over the ledge like that, you probably aren’t cut out to be a parent. Stick with houseplants.

The few times I have considered spanking my child, there was not time to reason, distract, or tell him I understand what he's going through and validate his feelings. He was ripping a huge chunk of his sisters hair out, it needed to stop immediately or it could have been a permanent scar. Luckily just grabbing him scared him enough to make him let go, but my next step was a spank and while I would have felt terribly about it, what other choice was there? The world isn't black and white, parenting isn't never or always, perspective is the most important thing in almost all facets of life.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

Kids need consequences for bad behavior and as a parent who has tried it all, nothing works as well as a good ol' rap on the beak. Time outs, ignoring, threatening to leave the parks. None of that works. A stern voice and a little painful stimuli stops the bad behavior immediately. Discipline is not abuse don't ever let anyone tell you that it is. Parents have the right to discipline their children. Again don't be bullied or shamed into thinking you are not allowed to discipline your children to make sure they behave in a manner that you approve of. Off the soap box.

 

[dreamer17555]

You also said this.



The few times I have considered spanking my child, there was not time to reason, distract, or tell him I understand what he's going through and validate his feelings. He was ripping a huge chunk of his sisters hair out, it needed to stop immediately or it could have been a permanent scar. Luckily just grabbing him scared him enough to make him let go, but my next step was a spank and while I would have felt terribly about it, what other choice was there? The world isn't black and white, parenting isn't never or always, perspective is the most important thing in almost all facets of life.

I have a special needs child who used to rip and grab and pull. I don’t know the specifics of your situation but in mine I took his hand and opened it to get him to let go and then I would sit on the floor rocking him and repetitively gently putting his hands back in his lap if he tried to hit or grab.

It sounds like by grabbing him the action also stopped for you.

You can stop the action and then work on modeling calm until they simmer down enough to reason with. It’s hard but it can be done.

 

[Owlpost23]

I remember, before I had kids, judging other parents and saying “mine will never behave like that!” I also have quickly forgotten how hard it is to have multiple small children when one is a baby and I was reminded, once again, when I had my youngest.

I think there is a tendency to make it to older age and see how well your children have turned out and pat yourself on the back for a job well done instead of realizing it was likely an equal combination of genetic luck (I firmly believe some children are born more wild than others), environmental factors (did parents have to work a lot, daycare, multiple young children, good teachers at school and a million others), and good parenting by both parents (not just one, which is often the case). Sometimes parents have/do all these things and their kid just turns out badly. Some parents also really think their kid has turned into a lovely adult, but they are blinded by a parents love and they’ve actually birthed a hellspawn that wreaks havoc on everyone around them who isn’t their parents. You’ll never meet a better group of parents than right here, just ask them yourself if you don’t believe me.

So true.You can put in all the right ingredients and still bake a bad cake.

 

[nancipants]

Kids need consequences for bad behavior and as a parent who has tried it all, nothing works as well as a good ol' rap on the beak. Time outs, ignoring, threatening to leave the parks. None of that works. A stern voice and a little painful stimuli stops the bad behavior immediately. Discipline is not abuse don't ever let anyone tell you that it is. Parents have the right to discipline their children. Again don't be bullied or shamed into thinking you are not allowed to discipline your children to make sure they behave in a manner that you approve of. Off the soap box.

Yeah, spanking wouldn't work on my kid whose biggest behavioral problem so far has been hitting. All he'd learn is that he can hit, too.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

You also said this.



The few times I have considered spanking my child, there was not time to reason, distract, or tell him I understand what he's going through and validate his feelings. He was ripping a huge chunk of his sisters hair out, it needed to stop immediately or it could have been a permanent scar. Luckily just grabbing him scared him enough to make him let go, but my next step was a spank and while I would have felt terribly about it, what other choice was there? The world isn't black and white, parenting isn't never or always, perspective is the most important thing in almost all facets of life.

People were telling childless posters that dealing with a pet could never be as stressful as dealing with a child and I was offering another perspective on that. I said my young kids had never stressed me to the same degree that living with a dog with extreme separation anxiety had, and I stand by that. My kids have never ripped the siding off the exterior of the house, or broken their teeth and splattered the walls in blood trying to chew their way through the walls, and they don’t run to the top step and pee down the stairs every time I go to a different level of the house. My kids have never made me feel like a prisoner in my own home and I don’t feel sick to my stomach every time I come through the front door, wondering what I’m about to walk into. Somehow, to you, that meant I don’t have perspective on what it’s like to be a parent?

Okay, so your son grabbed his sister by the hair. I also wouldn’t have first tried to reason, distract, or validate his feelings. I would’ve done what you did and grabbed him to stop the behavior, but that’s where our methods would’ve diverged. I would’ve then fully removed him from the situation before employing an age-appropriate consequence, followed by a discussion about his behavior once things were calm. You chose to spank him to let him know that causing physical harm to someone isn’t acceptable. To me that’s a mixed message, if you’re interested in other perspectives.

 

[leahgoogle]

People were telling childless posters that dealing with a pet could never be as stressful as dealing with a child and I was offering another perspective on that. I said my young kids had never stressed me to the same degree that living with a dog with extreme separation anxiety had, and I stand by that. My kids have never ripped the siding off the exterior of the house, or broken their teeth and splattered the walls in blood trying to chew their way through the walls, and they don’t run to the top step and pee down the stairs every time I go to a different level of the house. My kids have never made me feel like a prisoner in my own home and I don’t feel sick to my stomach every time I come through the front door, wondering what I’m about to walk into. Somehow, to you, that meant I don’t have perspective on what it’s like to be a parent?

Okay, so your son grabbed his sister by the hair. I also wouldn’t have first tried to reason, distract, or validate his feelings. I would’ve done what you did and grabbed him to stop the behavior, but that’s where our methods would’ve diverged. I would’ve then fully removed him from the situation before employing an age-appropriate consequence, followed by a discussion about his behavior once things were calm. You chose to spank him to let him know that causing physical harm to someone isn’t acceptable. To me that’s a mixed message, if you’re interested in other perspectives.

This is off the OP topic, but I thought having a puppy with mild separation anxiety is bad. I feel for you and your dog! Our doodle is 4 months old and whines and barks the whole time we are gone in his crate. He also whines if we leave the room. He has only pooped in his crate twice since we have had him and I hope that never happens again because it is awful. I'm hoping it gets better with age!

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

I haven't even touched on it but it may be a detail missed by those not researching, in 1975 APA came together and made their resolution that corporal punishment should be used.

People were telling childless posters that dealing with a pet could never be as stressful as dealing with a child and I was offering another perspective on that. I said my young kids had never stressed me to the same degree that living with a dog with extreme separation anxiety had, and I stand by that. My kids have never ripped the siding off the exterior of the house, or broken their teeth and splattered the walls in blood trying to chew their way through the walls, and they don’t run to the top step and pee down the stairs every time I go to a different level of the house. My kids have never made me feel like a prisoner in my own home and I don’t feel sick to my stomach every time I come through the front door, wondering what I’m about to walk into. Somehow, to you, that meant I don’t have perspective on what it’s like to be a parent?

Okay, so your son grabbed his sister by the hair. I also wouldn’t have first tried to reason, distract, or validate his feelings. I would’ve done what you did and grabbed him to stop the behavior, but that’s where our methods would’ve diverged. I would’ve then fully removed him from the situation before employing an age-appropriate consequence, followed by a discussion about his behavior once things were calm. You chose to spank him to let him know that causing physical harm to someone isn’t acceptable. To me that’s a mixed message, if you’re interested in other perspectives.

well said. I agree about the dogs too. I had a Beauceron that had extreme separation anxiety and it tore my house apart. Ate an entire sofa cushion one time

 

[tzolkin]

The amount of semantics about if you don’t have kids you can’t know you wouldn’t hit them is this idea that “one you are in the thick of it you will make the same choices I did” which is simply not true.
...
The idea that a poster would use it because you felt personally it was your only choice (it wasn’t) is just a way to try to justify your actions. Just own them. Own that some people have managed to raise kind, helpful children without yelling or hitting them.

I have read the posts the same way-- "kids are so frustrating/infuriating. You don't know you wouldn't hit them until you've actually had them and eventually snap and spank them because you're at your wits end". (Which is, of course, the exact opposite of how everyone claims that they use spanking-- an unemotional, mechanical swat on the bottom)

I admitted earlier in the thread that we did spank our oldest and twice spanked the middle child. For us, that was absolutely it. We had a complete change in both our thoughts and behavior (also stopped yelling and just generally became a more calm person). So, I know that it is possible to not yell at or spank a child. If it was possible for me to stop doing those things once I decided they were wrong and to completely change my parenting techniques, it's certainly possible for people who are already strongly opposed to spanking to know that they would never do it-- even if they don't have children.

I am a good person by most metrics-… That doesn’t change the fact that how I was raised was not ok.

This is us as well. My husband and I both love our parents and by all measures have turned out better than "fine", but that doesn't mean that the ways our parents treated us were acceptable. If anything, things have turned out well for us because we have actively tried to NOT use any of the techniques our parents used with us.

I never understand the "I was spanked and I turned out fine" mentality. How do you know how you would have turned out if you had not been spanked?

May I ask what you're specifically looking for from them? (Please feel free to say no it's too uncomfortable to answer! - I'm asking because I know someone IRL who doesn't speak to her mom, and I can't really ask her about it.)

As I see it, there is no way for them to actually undo their mistakes now. So all their owning of it would do is leave them wallowing in guilt. How would that improve things in a practical sense? It seems to me that it would eat at you less to assume they did the best they could with the information they had, rather than to assume it was malicious.

But again, please take this as curiosity, not argument, and don't feel pressured.

I'm not the poster you asked, but I'll give my experience both from the parent side and from the child side.

You can't go back in time and undo your mistakes, but owning up to it is a way to heal and move on with the relationship. My husband and I have had conversations with our oldest where we have apologized for our shortcomings as parents. We acknowledged that we did and said things that were wrong, that she didn't deserve to be treated that way, that we are sad that we hurt her, etc. This has given her the opportunity to have her feelings validated-- we recognize we did wrong and we have remorse for it. I think it has also taught her that people can learn and grow. At the time, we did the best job that we were capable of. But when we knew better, we actively worked to change our behavior.

My parents as well as my MIL refuse to acknowledge that they have ever done wrong. Even a remote hint toward it will send them into a defensive frenzy. Did they do the best they could have in the situation? Probably. But, their "best" was still poor parenting that has had lifelong impact on all of their children and impacted how those children went on to raise the next generation as well.

I don't think they were being malicious and we have forgiven them, but the relationship dynamic is very different than what it has the potential to be (like what we have with our kids). Honestly, it would just be nice to know that they acknowledge they did wrong and that they would try to do better if they were given another opportunity. Instead, they will often give parenting suggestions or make comments that we find quite disturbing and reaffirm that they not only see nothing wrong with their behavior, but actually believe it would be good for their grandchildren to experience.

 

[dreamer17555]

Curious- For any parents if your adult child came to you one day and said X punishment (yelling, hitting, etc) hurt me, how would you deal with it?

I’m sure more often than not it is unlikely to happen but on the other hand there are tons of TikTok’s where young adults (and older) speak candidly about harm done to them as children or their choice to go ‘no contact’ with their parents. I think the younger generation are really getting a handle on attempting to stop certain behaviors and end some generational trauma. (And I am not saying all families have generational trauma just that this generation seems a little more alert to when it happens)

Just curious if they said you had left some emotional scars what your reaction would be…

 

[TipsyTraveler]

This is off the OP topic, but I thought having a puppy with mild separation anxiety is bad. I feel for you and your dog! Our doodle is 4 months old and whines and barks the whole time we are gone in his crate. He also whines if we leave the room. He has only pooped in his crate twice since we have had him and I hope that never happens again because it is awful. I'm hoping it gets better with age!

Haha, this is going to make me sound like a heinous human being but after what I went through with that dog I don’t care — fortunately, he’s dead now. He was a mess when I got him and I spent a couple years working with him to correct his behavior. Made huge strides and got him to the point where he was pretty normal. But, as he aged and lost eyesight and hearing it all fell apart again and the last few years with him were an absolute nightmare. It’s been four years since he died and I can’t bring myself to consider getting another dog, even after having had them my entire life prior to him. He essentially ruined dogs for me.

I wish you luck with your puppy.

 

[WEDcryoHEAD]

Curious- For any parents if your adult child came to you one day and said X punishment (yelling, hitting, etc) hurt me, how would you deal with it?

I’m sure more often than not it is unlikely to happen but on the other hand there are tons of TikTok’s where young adults (and older) speak candidly about harm done to them as children or their choice to go ‘no contact’ with their parents. I think the younger generation are really getting a handle on attempting to stop certain behaviors and end some generational trauma. (And I am not saying all families have generational trauma just that this generation seems a little more alert to when it happens)

Just curious if they said you had left some emotional scars what your reaction would be…

I have two adult children, both College educated and one is a pediatric occupational therapist. They would both tell you that they never got spanked, hit whatever, unless they deserved it and that they were never abused. Again, there is a distinction to be made between abuse and discipline. A parent should be allowed to discipline their child in the manner they see fit. There are clear laws on what constitutes abuse and if a parent is abusing a child than they should be criminally charged and the child removed. Abuse should never be tolerated.