sure wish parents would watch their kids

[sam_gordon]

So why risk it when there are better options?

Because those "better options" don't always work?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

And that shows how those without kids can’t really say what they would do

Correct at least for me. However, I have the knowledge regarding the effectiveness and ramifications that go along with physical punishment, knowledge is power. I also know that there are a lot more parenting classes than in the past. There are classes where they've helped re-teach parents other methods, they've helped them learn de-escalating techniques and they've shown the incidence rates that were causing the physical punishments become reduced as other methods used. The classes also take on verbal interactions from yelling to the words used.

I think sometimes there's an air of a parent is the teacher and therefore can't be taught but we learn every day and we aren't infallible. It does take a lot for someone to re-evaluate what techniques they are using in light of learning information. This is why I don't know if it's really helpful to throw back at people and say "well you don't have kids so you don't know what you'd do" well sure but time and time again I see a pattern in the conversations. It is very much like a "gotcha" type constantly running after people by saying "well you're not a parent you don't know" well yes that is true at the heart of it you're right everyone is right about that but at least for me I'm going to say loudly back "well I hope I don't use physical punishment" "I hope that I don't just yell and scream and say hurtful things". I hope I remember what it was like, remember the information regarding what goals I am wanting and if physical punishment long term gets me there and avoid it like none other. And I hope that I'm open to parenting classes, my thirst for knowledge probably will help on that.

I won't be a perfect parent and I'm not a perfect person. But one thing I am truly very confident in is I don't want to aspire to use physical or verbal punishment to gain compliance not just by the acts alone but also by the knowledge out there regarding it.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

And that shows how those without kids can’t really say what they would do, I can’t even imagine being upset enough with my dog to want to hit her, kids can make you so furious. When mine were babies there were times I’d put them in their cribs and walk away to compose myself, knowing I was just tired, there is a reason for shaken babies, and glad I was a SAHM, I don’t know if I would trust a full time caregiver with my kids (they had sitters for a few hours). You can’t compare the emotions your kids can cause (good or bad) with those you get from pets (and I LOVE my dog).

Why is it so hard for people to believe that some people just aren’t prone to violence? Personally, I’ve never been in, nor can I even imagine, any scenario where I become so upset by the behavior of a baby that I feel the urge to shake, spank, or use any kind of physical force on them. In my worst, most exhausted, most stressful moments of parenting young children the thought has never even crossed my mind. Simply never a consideration. It’s just not in my nature to respond that way. Even if the thought had crossed my mind, I wouldn’t choose that option because I’d recognize that A) the kid is just doing what kids do, and B) getting physical with them is not going to make the situation better, only worse.

I’m also a SAHM, so I’ve never had to hire a caretaker for my kids (they’ve yet to even have babysitters to this point). I’m glad, because I’m realizing I might have been naive in assuming that people who chose that as a career would actually like children enough not to be inclined to strike them and would be trained in and employ effective childcare techniques.

I’ve never been the caretaker of a disabled adult or an ailing parent with Alzheimer’s, for example. However, I can confidently say that, were I ever in that position, I wouldn’t respond by lashing out physically towards them, no matter how stressful it became. If I started having those uncharacteristic thoughts, I would realize I was in wayyyy over my head and seek help. Do other people agree they could say the same? Or does the whole “you can’t say you wouldn’t turn to violence until you try it” apply to those scenarios, too?

It’s actually boggling my mind to realize there are so many people out there who cannot grasp the concept that some people don’t, won’t, and have no desire to use physical force against their children. And yes, you can know what kind of person you are before having kids yourself.

FWIW, my kids have never done anything to push me to the levels of frustration and stress I felt with our last dog and his extreme separation anxiety. I’d take ten of them over one of him any day. And I’ll always show my kids at least as much respect as I’d give a dog.

 

[DCLMP]

Where did I say every person? In the post you quoted I literally said “Absolutely some kids overcome being hit or yelled at without major implication but some do not. Why gamble on the potential latter when there is an alternative?”

So yes- some absolutely do not have any major implications (ie are not “messed up”- even though that comment is a bit insensitive as I am not “messed up” for having issues steaming from parents that choose to hit).

I am a good person by most metrics- I give to charity (which has nothing to do with anything) and I didn’t repress my memories. I have wonderful children and great friends… That doesn’t change the fact that how I was raised was not ok.

I didn’t realize until therapy how much of who I am was shaped by some more negative impacts of my childhood. How many things I still do because I am often fearful. This is my reality. It might not be yours.

I will say again- no not every person who is hit or screamed at as a child will have emotional scars. But some will. So why risk it when there are better options?

It's important to develop thick skin. If you can't handle criticism or being yelled at it your never going to make it in life. At some point you have to move on and stop blaming your parents for your personal short comings.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It’s actually boggling my mind to realize there are so many people out there who cannot grasp the concept that some people don’t, won’t, and have no desire to use physical force against their children.

Purely my opinion but I think a lot of it comes from societal norms that are going away. It plays out on other topics too and it's natural in some ways.

But in this respect that's why I made a comment about saying it out loud. And to apply it to the comment say out loud "you don't know if you would ever use physical force on your child" but just keep saying that out loud because if someone did I think they might realize how off that sounds to proclaim that to someone else.

I think because it was so commonplace for so long in households some people almost take to it like it's a normal reaction thus they see people saying they won't do it and think "oh boy you don't have a clue". The point now in our society is to stop viewing it as normal or viewing it as something that just happens when you've met your limit.

 

[Tink-osophy]

Because those "better options" don't always work?

Hmm. Yes, they do. ...As long as the adult is calm (and the more worked up your child, the more (ultra) calm you need to be) and firm and your message clear, consistent and very simple. Is it always easy in the moment for the adult? Nooooo! Of course not, but that difficulty is the adult's burden to bear, not the child's in form of physical pain.

It's also the case that how effective these tools are depends on how consistently and considerately they are used all the time - not just in the moment.

Potentially, hitting is matching the child's tone, rather than leading them to match your calmer one.

Is it OK for a child to hit another child if that other child isn't responding to their requests to give back/share/listen etc. etc.?

 

[dreamer17555]

It's important to develop thick skin. If you can't handle criticism or being yelled at it your never going to make it in life. At some point you have to move on and stop blaming your parents for your personal short comings.

Why is it important to develop a thick skin? I have never been screamed at work, I don’t tolerate being yelled at by significant others as there are better ways of communicating. I have never been hit by another adult besides my parents. I can handle criticism but violence and being screamed at are things that don’t happen as part of my adult life. I have gotten through cancer and chemo. I clearly can survive. Why do I need a thick skin?

I do work on the lasting issues my parents left me with. I go to therapy. They however do not. At what point should the parents accept that the were responsible for a child and hurt that child causing some lasting damage?

I have not been a perfect parent either (however I have not been abusive) but I acknowledge when I have let them down or crossed a line and I strive to earn my children’s forgiveness. Because as the adult it is on me to be mature and make the right call.

ETA- serious question- when do you ever as an adult hit or scream at a fellow adult? I can only think of extreme situations when this would be acceptable like if the other adult was attacking you… clearly not something that happens often. So why is it okay to strike a child when you would never for example strike a coworker for making a snide comment?

ETA 2- if the outside world is going to rock my kids which so far it hasn’t (and I say this as a mom whose DD works at Disney and can deal well with unhappy guests) then shouldn’t I represent safety to them? My DD in fact has been through some really rough things but yelling or hitting her as a child wouldn’t have made those things any easier to deal with. It’s not like if you get hit as a child you laugh off chemo or a severe car crash. Please explain to me how a thick skin helps.

 

[lowlight]

FWIW, my kids have never done anything to push me to the levels of frustration and stress I felt with our last dog and his extreme separation anxiety.

I think that’s the most important part of your statement. You are admitting you lack the perspective.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

 

[dreamer17555]

@Cannot_Wait_4Disney Question- is there a reason you keep putting mocking laughing emoji‘s on my comments?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Purely my opinion but I think a lot of it comes from societal norms that are going away. It plays out on other topics too and it's natural in some ways.

But in this respect that's why I made a comment about saying it out loud. And to apply it to the comment say out loud "you don't know if you would ever use physical force on your child" but just keep saying that out loud because if someone did I think they might realize how off that sounds to proclaim that to someone else.

I think because it was so commonplace for so long in households some people almost take to it like it's a normal reaction thus they see people saying they won't do it and think "oh boy you don't have a clue". The point now in our society is to stop viewing it as normal or viewing it as something that just happens when you've met your limit.

I agree about the social norms, and I also think a big part of it comes down to people not wanting to reevaluate their decisions. Just as it’s easier to dismiss someone’s opinion because they don’t have children themselves, it’s easier to tell yourself those people will change their minds and parent the same way you did once they have kids. If those people go on to have kids and don’t resort to spanking, well, then, their kids must be out-of-control brats. But if by some miracle they’re not out-of-control brats, then it must be because they were easier children who didn’t “need” spankings the way yours did.

Doubling down in defense of one’s choices is a lot more comfortable than questioning whether you could’ve done a better job by making different choices. I have massive respect for people who can do the latter, but they seem to be the minority.

 

[sam_gordon]

Hmm. Yes, they do. ...As long as the adult is calm (and the more worked up your child, the more (ultra) calm you need to be) and firm and your message clear, consistent and very simple. Is it always easy in the moment for the adult? Nooooo! Of course not, but that difficulty is the adult's burden to bear, not the child's in form of physical pain.

And sometimes you don't (or can't) wait for that "consistency" to pay off. A smack on the bottom gets their attention and it's over and done with (and presumably the lesson learned). Should it be the first arrow in your quiver? Of course not. Could it succeed where other, more patient methods haven't? Yes.

 

[lowlight]

@Cannot_Wait_4Disney Question- is there a reason you keep putting mocking laughing emoji‘s on my comments?

There’s a reason, but you’ll get a warning and points for saying it.

 

[sam_gordon]

I have never been screamed at work, I don’t tolerate being yelled at by significant others as there are better ways of communicating. I have never been hit by another adult besides my parents. I can handle criticism but violence and being screamed at are things that don’t happen as part of my adult life.

I've said it before... the dynamic between you and and another adult is TOTALLY different than the dynamic between you and your child.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

I think that’s the most important part of your statement. You are admitting you lack the perspective.

I lack what perspective? What it’s like to be so overwhelmed and unable to cope with my kids that I lose control and common sense and start physically lashing out at them? If child behavior has the ability to push you over the ledge like that, you probably aren’t cut out to be a parent. Stick with houseplants.

 

[sam_gordon]

Doubling down in defense of one’s choices is a lot more comfortable than questioning whether you could’ve done a better job by making different choices. I have massive respect for people who can do the latter, but they seem to be the minority.

I'd be surprised to find ANY parent who says they've done everything perfectly. EVERYONE, myself included, would handle issues differently I'm sure.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I do work on the lasting issues my parents left me with. I go to therapy. They however do not. At what point should the parents accept that the were responsible for a child and hurt that child causing some lasting damage?

May I ask what you're specifically looking for from them? (Please feel free to say no it's too uncomfortable to answer! - I'm asking because I know someone IRL who doesn't speak to her mom, and I can't really ask her about it.)

As I see it, there is no way for them to actually undo their mistakes now. So all their owning of it would do is leave them wallowing in guilt. How would that improve things in a practical sense? It seems to me that it would eat at you less to assume they did the best they could with the information they had, rather than to assume it was malicious.

But again, please take this as curiosity, not argument, and don't feel pressured.

 

[sam_gordon]

I lack what perspective? What it’s like to be so overwhelmed and unable to cope with my kids that I lose control and common sense and start physically lashing out at them? If child behavior has the ability to push you over the ledge like that, you probably aren’t cut out to be a parent. Stick with houseplants.

Are you saying anyone who has spanked their child isn't cut out to be a parent?

 

[mjkacmom]

Correct at least for me. However, I have the knowledge regarding the effectiveness and ramifications that go along with physical punishment, knowledge is power. I also know that there are a lot more parenting classes than in the past. There are classes where they've helped re-teach parents other methods, they've helped them learn de-escalating techniques and they've shown the incidence rates that were causing the physical punishments become reduced as other methods used. The classes also take on verbal interactions from yelling to the words used.

I think sometimes there's an air of a parent is the teacher and therefore can't be taught but we learn every day and we aren't infallible. It does take a lot for someone to re-evaluate what techniques they are using in light of learning information. This is why I don't know if it's really helpful to throw back at people and say "well you don't have kids so you don't know what you'd do" well sure but time and time again I see a pattern in the conversations. It is very much like a "gotcha" type constantly running after people by saying "well you're not a parent you don't know" well yes that is true at the heart of it you're right everyone is right about that but at least for me I'm going to say loudly back "well I hope I don't use physical punishment" "I hope that I don't just yell and scream and say hurtful things". I hope I remember what it was like, remember the information regarding what goals I am wanting and if physical punishment long term gets me there and avoid it like none other. And I hope that I'm open to parenting classes, my thirst for knowledge probably will help on that.

I won't be a perfect parent and I'm not a perfect person. But one thing I am truly very confident in is I don't want to aspire to use physical or verbal punishment to gain compliance not just by the acts alone but also by the knowledge out there regarding it.

I think most feel the same, but I’m pretty sure every parent has had some moments during emotional times where they didn’t make the best choices with their words. It looks great in paper, but in some situations it’s really very hard, especially the teen years when they sometimes become aliens and you need to force yourself not to engage. Mine are pretty easy but have pushed my buttons more than anyone (as only someone you love so unconditionally can).

 

[dreamer17555]

I agree about the social norms, and I also think a big part of it comes down to people not wanting to reevaluate their decisions. Just as it’s easier to dismiss someone’s opinion because they don’t have children themselves, it’s easier to tell yourself those people will change their minds and parent the same way you did once they have kids. If those people go on to have kids and don’t resort to spanking, well, then, their kids must be out-of-control brats. But if by some miracle they’re not out-of-control brats, then it must be because they were easier children who didn’t “need” spankings the way yours did.

Doubling down in defense of one’s choices is a lot more comfortable than questioning whether you could’ve done a better job by making different choices. I have massive respect for people who can do the latter, but they seem to be the minority.

This! Also it is interesting how many adults and young adults are starting to go ‘no contact’ with their parents and what I have heard echoed over and over is not that they expected their parents to be perfect but they just want acknowledgment that yes their parents hurt them and they could have made a different call.

What I have learned in therapy is that even though I might have parented at my best at the time for my own children that doesn’t mean they got everything they needed. And I can make space for that- that my best might not have always been good enough and I will strive to keep improving.