Stupid America...

Ohhh, so just how am 'I' responsible for this Gross Negligence on the part of the schools.

You say I am responsible for my child. But, you conveniently fail to mention ANY responsibility on the part of the schools to actually 'educate' him!!!

This just gets richer every minute.


Sorry folks, shows over, I'm outa here.
 
No your not responsible for the negligence. But neither is the teacher or the union. That was the district's responsibility. The NEA is not the district.
 
Well, one more quick comment.

Are you actually not realizing that most everything at the school district level is coming down from the NEA, the Dept. of Education, etc...
 
Wishing on a star said:
Well, one more quick comment.

Are you actually not realizing that most everything at the school district level is coming down from the NEA, the Dept. of Education, etc...

No the NEA just works for the teacher's contract.. The don't dictate curriculm, IDEA requriments, central office administrations etc.

I served on a school board for 4 years. I do know how it works and the union and "little" employees have very little say. They are lucky to get a 2% raise every few years.
 

There is a movement in this country to demonize unions across the board - it's an attempt to take any little power that the "little people" are still clinging to away from them.

There are numerous problems with the public school system, but in my view the union (which functions to maintain a living wage and decent benefits for their members) is the least of them.

We can have strong unions that encourage decent teacher pay and benefits (and, imagine that, having such would actually increase the number of qualified and gifted people actually choosing to teach!) AND quality public education. They are not in conflict with one another.
 
I know this is getting OT, but I just have to comment on some of the things being said about special education.

Yes, I can expect the schools to spend more on my son's education than other children. As a matter of fact I expect his school to spend more on his education than his Neurotypical twin sister. His sister may have some struggles and need occasional help to succeed, but by and large will succeed and learn whether or not her school is spending large amounts of money on her. It's also mandated by federal law due to the inferior or total lack of education that disabled children received in the past.

If I could send my son to school and just provide a little remediation through tutors and intensive help by me I would be thrilled. Instead, if my son doesn't receive the proper interventions he is all but guaranteed to fail. And when I say fail, I mean that with his disability the only real interventions are educational interventions and without them people with his disability have a much greater chance of developing depression, anxiety and the teen suicide rate is through the roof (he has Nonverbal Learning Disability...if you don't know what it is and you're a teacher, I would be happy to talk to you about it , or please take a little time to look up some basic info. on the internet. It may give you insight on a student that you have or may have in the future).

My complaints lie more with the district level than with most of the teachers. So far (knock on wood) I have mostly met teachers that truly want to do what they think is best for DS. The problem for me arises with the teachers not being open to my input and not having any training in his disability. I am more than willing to help them learn, but they at present aren't interested in the information I'm giving them.

The district, on the other hand, isn't always even trying to do what's best for special needs kids. IDEA mandates that school districts set aside enough funds (or apply for grants) to provide special needs children with a Free and Appropriate Education. Many districts don't and rely on the parents not knowing their children's rights to lower costs. That means children whose parents aren't versed in education law will be the ones who fall through the cracks and may very well be the children who are disrupting classes, instead of getting the help that they need.

What's even worse, is that many interventions don't cost much if any money and aren't incredibly difficult to impliment, but there is still an atmosphere of discrimination in some schools toward special needs kids. Our school, is a very high performing district. Yet you rarely see any severe special needs kids or even physically handicapped ones. People with older children have told me that they can never remember a blind, deaf, down syndrome, or wheelchair bound child in any of their children's classes. What do they do with them all? Unless a parent exercises their rights, they ship them off to the area city school districts and pay incredibly high tuition for them. It would cost less to provide an in-district inclusive education with their typical peers using the appropriate supports and interventions, but that would mean that the district standardized test scores would be lowered. Nice, huh?

So, before people get upset about the money being spent on special education, know that I would be thrilled to trade my son's disability along with all the interventions, for a mediocre or even sub-par education for my son not having to deal with a lifelong disability.
 
Just a clarification. I beleive in IDEA. I think we should take care of all the kids as best we can and yes, some will cost more than others. The problem is that IDEA is only funded 15% by the federal government. It a no win situation for the school districts; they have to abide by IDEA but they can't do that without taking huge chunks of money from other areas. So they do a lot of shuffling and giving people the run around.

I'm not saying that's right, but if anyone thinks that getting rid of the NEA would improve that, they are misguided.

Tell me, what private school would jump through the hoops public schools do to educate special needs kids if they are NOT to required to by law?

Oh, that brings me to another issue. Does anyone realize how incredibly confusing and voluminous the paperwork is for each kid under IDEA? It's insane and again it is not the teachers or their unions fault.
 
Being a liberal and all, I have no problem that some of my tax money goes to help people who have children with special needs. I do not resent that the schools spend more of my tax money on other people's children than mine. Of course I also don't resent that some of my tax money goes to feed poor children or provide them with medical care.
 
chobie said:
Do you honestly believe that people go into teaching just so they can belong to a union that will let them do a crappy job?


Knowing that you can’t be replaced or downgraded does breed complacency. Change can come from the union membership (teachers) or the voters. I don’t see the membership voting the unions out, so I’m afraid the US will continue to fall behind the rest of the industrialized world. Eventually, It will affect our standard of living and change will come. I don’t think global embarrassment will motivate Americans to change the system, I would bet thinner wallets will.
 
chobie said:
Not going to happen in our lifetime. And I'll be right out there fighting to keep them going.

Teaching is a very noble profession, but you sound very proud to be a member of the monopoly. Can you name another monopoly that has survived long term?
 
catherine said:
I can't speak for other countries because I do not know what their edcuation systems are like. However I can tell that any young adult here in the Uk can pursue higher education, if they are so inclined. In fact, it is probably easier here, as there are no fees involved until a individual attends a university and then the fees are a fraction of what they are in the States.

I am by no means knocking other countries edcuational opportunities. However, I do know that in several major G-8 countries kids are seperated in secondary schools into two groups. Vocational and college bound. While the USA does have vocational high schools in some areas it is not the norm to divide up the our kids into "labor force" and "university bound". The last time it was studied the USA had the highest total graduation rate from programs that preare for direct entry into academic higher education: 1999, 78%. For example, Germany was 33%, japan 66%. Interestingly enough, this same G-8 study (link is posted below) denotes that Japan had the highest number of eighth grade students whose school principles reported threatening behavior that created an unsafe and threatening enviornment was a serious problem. 3.6 percent of Japanese eighth grades reported physical injury while the USA had only 1.8 percent. USA principles did note that bad behavior was more frequent but less serious here. (talking out, etc) Finally, the percentage of the population ages 25 to 64 that have completed a university degree (as of 1999) is:
Canada: 19%
France: 11%
Germany 13%
Italy 9%
Japan: 18%
United Kingdom 17%
United States: 27%

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/2003026.pdf#search='college%20education%20in%20other%20countries'

As for teachers in unions, I support them. Having been a guidance counselor for years I understand the difficulty and sacrifice most teachers make for their students. We all know what the pay is going to be (not good). Teachers need to know that there are support systems in place to help them gain important training, communication and resources.

There is protection in numbers and teachers need their interests protected just like everyone else. They are a profession that needs to be honored and supported as they deal with challenges that afflict our great country. Parents need to step up to the plate too.
 
Wishing on a star said:
When I have to personally fight the school system for two solid years to get help for my son. Something is WRONG. He has a rare learning disability that affects math skills. His reading was great. After spending the entire year up at the school begging for help (which was flatly refused), the Principal had the nerve to actually argue with me and tell me that my son was not reading and he needed help. :scared: I said, Okay, you say my son isn't reading, then WHERE IS READING RESOURCE!!!' Just unbelievable....
.


OK, I want to address this part. The rest...you're entitled to your own opinion but this is disturbing....

Legally, the school has to provide an evalution. What state are you in? Have you talked to a lawyer? Did the school test him and did you not agree with the results? What are his grades like? Is the Child Study Team involved?

Maybe you can educate the school about the LD. Did they offer reading help?
 
I am a teacher who just spent a very large portion of my Saturday grading papers, planning lessons, and working on report cards. It is not unusual for me to spend much of my "free" :confused: time doing school work, as I average about 50 hours per week on school work (in/out of the classroom). It is very disheartening to read so many negative responses directed at teachers. There is a huge lack of respect out there for the job that many great teachers do each and every day. There are bad teachers out there, and they should be fired, but their incompetence shouldn't overshadow those that really do care and work hard at their jobs.

As far as advanced curriculum in other countries, as the curriculum standards have been increasing in the US with NCLB, I have heard parent after parent complaining that it is "Too Hard", "They are expcting TOO much", "She/He is only 6, they can't possibly be expected to learn that". In my first grade classroom I assign a small amount of homework each week. I have parents who never do the homework with their children and have even had a parent write me a note "requesting" a light amount of homeork because they had a lot activities planned. Education in the US is not valued in the same way that it is in other countries. Many parents would say that they value education, but many are not willing to put the time and effort in at home to help their child succeed. I would imagine that children in other countries spend much more time reading, studying, and doing educational activities than do the children in the US.

Looking Forward posted exactly what I also wanted to say. In many countries, not all children are educated with the hopes of going on to college and in some cases this is determined early on. For those of you with children in special education, you might want to research the special education systems in other countries before you start saying how much better they are at edcuating students. I did a quick search on special education in Belgium and this is what I found at one site:

BUT in Belgium, France, the Netherlands and Germany, special education remains largely a segregated enterprise: Children with the most serious difficulties are sent to specialized schools while the others remain in the normal system, where they get scant help.
The education authority in Flemish Belgium just last year recommended a new policy of ''inclusive education,'' aiming to keep more children of varying handicaps within the main school system, but as the report by the European Commission agency pointed out, ''many mainstream school personnel are very defensive and see the presence of pupils with special educational needs as an unnecessary burden.''

This is only my 13th year of teaching, but with all of the lack of respect and negative public who actually think I work 9-3 :rotfl: and have so much time off for SOOO much money, I am not sure I will make it to retirement and that is sad because I really do love my job and feel that I do make a difference.
-Angie
 
Wishing on a star said:
Ohhh, so just how am 'I' responsible for this Gross Negligence on the part of the schools.

You say I am responsible for my child. But, you conveniently fail to mention ANY responsibility on the part of the schools to actually 'educate' him!!!
QUOTE]


Oh, one more thing. Have you thought about homeschooling?
 
Sorry for the long post. Great article from Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/MediaCenter/Speeches/BillgSpeeches/BGSpeechNGA-050226.htm


February 26, 2005
National Education Summit on High Schools


Prepared remarks by Bill Gates, Co-chair




Thank you for that kind introduction.

I also want to thank you, Governor Warner, and your fellow governors, for your leadership in hosting this education summit on America’s high schools. It is rare to bring together people with such broad responsibilities and focus their attention on one single issue. But if there is one single issue worth your focused attention – it is the state of America’s high schools.

Many of us here have stories about how we came to embrace high schools as an urgent cause. Let me tell you ours.

Everything Melinda and I do through our foundation is designed to advance equity. Around the world, we believe we can do the most by investing in health – especially in the poorest countries.
Here in America, we believe we can do the most to promote equity through education.

A few years ago, when Melinda and I really began to explore opportunities in philanthropy, we heard very compelling stories and statistics about how financial barriers kept minority students from taking their talents to college and making the most of their lives.

That led to one of the largest projects of our foundation. We created the Gates Millennium Scholars program to ensure that talent and energy meet with opportunity for thousands of promising minority students who want to go to college.

Many of our Scholars come from tough backgrounds, and they could bring you to tears with their hopeful plans for the future. They reinforced our belief that higher education is the best possible path for promoting equality and improving lives here in America.

Yet – the more we looked at the data, the more we came to see that there is more than one barrier to college. There’s the barrier of being able to pay for college; and there’s the barrier of being prepared for it.
When we looked at the millions of students that our high schools are not preparing for higher education – and we looked at the damaging impact that has on their lives – we came to a painful conclusion:

America’s high schools are obsolete.

By obsolete, I don’t just mean that our high schools are broken, flawed, and under-funded – though a case could be made for every one of those points.
By obsolete, I mean that our high schools – even when they’re working exactly as designed – cannot teach our kids what they need to know today.
Training the workforce of tomorrow with the high schools of today is like trying to teach kids about today’s computers on a 50-year-old mainframe. It’s the wrong tool for the times.
Our high schools were designed fifty years ago to meet the needs of another age. Until we design them to meet the needs of the 21st century, we will keep limiting – even ruining – the lives of millions of Americans every year.

Today, only one-third of our students graduate from high school ready for college, work, and citizenship.
The other two-thirds, most of them low-income and minority students, are tracked into courses that won’t ever get them ready for college or prepare them for a family-wage job – no matter how well the students learn or the teachers teach.

This isn’t an accident or a flaw in the system; it is the system.
In district after district, wealthy white kids are taught Algebra II while low-income minority kids are taught to balance a check book!
The first group goes on to college and careers; the second group will struggle to make a living wage.

Let’s be clear. Thanks to dedicated teachers and principals around the country, the best-educated kids in the United States are the best-educated kids in the world. We should be proud of that. But only a fraction of our kids are getting the best education.

Once we realize that we are keeping low-income and minority kids out of rigorous courses, there can be only two arguments for keeping it that way – either we think they can’t learn, or we think they’re not worth teaching. The first argument is factually wrong; the second is morally wrong.

Everyone who understands the importance of education; everyone who believes in equal opportunity; everyone who has been elected to uphold the obligations of public office should be ashamed that we are breaking our promise of a free education for millions of students.

For the sake of our young people and everyone who will depend on them – we must stop rationing education in America.
I’m not here to pose as an education expert. I head a corporation and a foundation. One I get paid for – the other one costs me. But both jobs give me a perspective on education in America, and both perspectives leave me appalled.

When I compare our high schools to what I see when I’m traveling abroad, I am terrified for our workforce of tomorrow. In math and science, our 4th graders are among the top students in the world. By 8th grade, they’re in the middle of the pack.

By 12th grade, U.S. students are scoring near the bottom of all industrialized nations.

We have one of the highest high school dropout rates in the industrialized world. Many who graduate do not go onto college. And many who do go on to college are not well-prepared – and end up dropping out. That is one reason why the U.S. college dropout rate is also one of the highest in the industrialized world. The poor performance of our high schools in preparing students for college is a major reason why the United States has now dropped from first to fifth in the percentage of young adults with a college degree.

The percentage of a population with a college degree is important, but so are sheer numbers. In 2001, India graduated almost a million more students from college than the United States did. China graduates twice as many students with bachelor’s degrees as the U.S., and they have six times as many graduates majoring in engineering.
In the international competition to have the biggest and best supply of knowledge workers, America is falling behind.

That is the heart of the economic argument for better high schools. It essentially says: “We’d better do something about these kids not getting an education, because it’s hurting us.” But there’s also a moral argument for better high schools, and it says: “We’d better do something about these kids not getting an education, because it’s hurting them.”
Today, most jobs that allow you to support a family require some postsecondary education. This could mean a four-year college, a community college, or technical school. Unfortunately, only half of all students who enter high school ever enroll in a postsecondary institution.
That means that half of all students starting high school today are unlikely to get a job that allows them to support a family.

Students who graduate from high school, but never go on to college, will earn – on average – about twenty-five thousand dollars a year. For a family of five, that’s close to the poverty line. But if you're Hispanic, you earn less. If you’re black, you earn even less – about 14 percent less than a white high school graduate.

Those who drop out have it even worse. Only 40 percent have jobs. They are nearly four times more likely to be arrested than their friends who stayed in high school. They are far more likely to have children in their teens. One in four turn to welfare or other kinds of government assistance.
Everyone agrees this is tragic. But these are our high schools that keep letting these kids fall through the cracks, and we act as if it can’t be helped.
It can be helped. We designed these high schools; we can redesign them.
But first we have to understand that today’s high schools are not the cause of the problem; they are the result. The key problem is political will. Elected officials have not yet done away with the idea underlying the old design. The idea behind the old design was that you could train an adequate workforce by sending only a third of your kids to college – and that the other kids either couldn’t do college work or didn’t need to. The idea behind the new design is that all students can do rigorous work, and – for their sake and ours – they have to.

Fortunately, there is mounting evidence that the new design works.
The Kansas City, Kansas public school district, where 79 percent of students are minorities and 74 percent live below the poverty line, was struggling with high dropout rates and low test scores when it adopted the school-reform model called First Things First in 1996. This included setting high academic standards for all students, reducing teacher-student ratios, and giving teachers and administrators the responsibility to improve student performance and the resources they needed to do it. The district’s graduation rate has climbed more than 30 percentage points.
These are the kind of results you can get when you design high schools to prepare every student for college.

At the Met School in Providence, Rhode Island, 70 percent of the students are black or Hispanic. More than 60 percent live below the poverty line. Nearly 40 percent come from families where English is a second language. As part of its special mission, the Met enrolls only students who have dropped out in the past or were in danger of dropping out. Yet, even with this student body, the Met now has the lowest dropout rate and the highest college placement rate of any high school in the state.

These are the kind of results you can get when you design a high school to prepare every student for college.
Two years ago, I visited High Tech High in San Diego. It was conceived in 1998 by a group of San Diego business leaders who became alarmed by the city's shortage of talented high-tech workers. Thirty-five percent of High Tech High students are black or Hispanic. All of them study courses like computer animation and biotechnology in the school's state-of-the-art labs. High Tech High’s scores on statewide academic tests are 15 percent higher than the rest of the district; their SAT scores are an average of 139 points higher.

These are the kind of results you can get when you design a high school to prepare every student for college.
These are not isolated examples. These are schools built on principles that can be applied anywhere – the new three R’s, the basic building blocks of better high schools:
· The first R is Rigor – making sure all students are given a challenging curriculum that prepares them for college or work;
· The second R is Relevance – making sure kids have courses and projects that clearly relate to their lives and their goals;
· The third R is Relationships – making sure kids have a number of adults who know them, look out for them, and push them to achieve.
The three R’s are almost always easier to promote in smaller high schools. The smaller size gives teachers and staff the chance to create an environment where students achieve at a higher level and rarely fall through the cracks. Students in smaller schools are more motivated, have higher attendance rates, feel safer, and graduate and attend college in higher numbers.

Yet every governor knows that the success of one school is not an answer to this crisis. You have to be able to make systems of schools work for all students. For this, we believe we need stable and effective governance. We need equitable school choice. We need performance-oriented employment agreements. And we need the capacity to intervene in low-performing schools.

Our foundation has invested nearly one billion dollars so far to help redesign the American high school. We are supporting more than fifteen hundred high schools – about half are totally new, and the other half are existing schools that have been redesigned. Four hundred fifty of these schools, both new and redesigned, are already open and operating. Chicago plans to open 100 new schools. New York City is opening 200. Exciting redesign work is under way in Oakland, Milwaukee, Cleveland, and Boston.
This kind of change is never easy. But I believe there are three steps that governors and CEOs can take that will help build momentum for change in our schools.

Number 1. Declare that all students can and should graduate from high school ready for college, work, and citizenship. How would you respond to a ninth grader’s mother who said: “My son is bright. He wants to learn. How come they won’t let him take Algebra?” What would you say? I ask the governors and business leaders here to become the top advocates in your states for the belief that every child should take courses that prepare him for college – because every child can succeed, and every child deserves the chance. The states that have committed to getting all students ready for college have made good progress – but every state must make the same commitment.

Number 2. Publish the data that measures our progress toward that goal. The focus on measuring success in the past few years has been important – it has helped us realize the extent of the problem. But we need to know more: What percentage of students are dropping out? What percentage are graduating? What percentage are going on to college? And we need this data broken down by race and income. The idea of tracking low-income and minority kids into dead-end courses is so offensive to our sense of equal opportunity that the only way the practice can survive, is if we hide it. That’s why we need to expose it. If we are forced to confront this injustice, I believe we will end it.

Number 3. Turn around failing schools and open new ones. If we believe all kids can learn – and the evidence proves they can –then when the students don’t learn, the school must change. Every state needs a strong intervention strategy to improve struggling schools. This needs to include special teams of experts who are given the power and resources to turn things around.
If we can focus on these three steps – high standards for all; public data on our progress; turning around failing schools – we will go a long way toward ensuring that all students have a chance to make the most of their lives.
Our philanthropy is driven by the belief that every human being has equal worth. We are constantly asking ourselves where a dollar of funding and an hour of effort can make the biggest impact for equality. We look for strategic entry points – where the inequality is the greatest, has the worst consequences, and offers the best chance for improvement. We have decided that high schools are a crucial intervention point for equality because that’s where children’s paths diverge – some go on to lives of accomplishment and privilege; others to lives of frustration, joblessness, and jail.
When I visited High Tech High in San Diego a few years ago, one young student told me that High Tech High was the first school he’d ever gone to where being smart was cool. His neighborhood friends gave him a hard time about that, and he said he wasn’t sure he was going to stay. But then he showed me the work he was doing on a special project involving a submarine. This kid was really bright. It was an incredible experience talking to him – because his life really did hang in the balance.
And without teachers who knew him, pushed him, and cared about him, he wouldn’t have had a chance.
Think of the difference it will make in his life if he takes that talent to college. Now multiply that by millions. That’s what’s at stake here.
If we keep the system as it is, millions of children will never get a chance to fulfill their promise because of their zip code, their skin color, or the income of their parents.
That is offensive to our values, and it’s an insult to who we are.
Every kid can graduate ready for college. Every kid should have the chance.
Let’s redesign our schools to make it happen.
Thank you very much.
 
Karel said:
OK, I want to address this part. The rest...you're entitled to your own opinion but this is disturbing....

Legally, the school has to provide an evalution. What state are you in? Have you talked to a lawyer? Did the school test him and did you not agree with the results? What are his grades like? Is the Child Study Team involved?

Maybe you can educate the school about the LD. Did they offer reading help?
For people needing help with special needs, this website is very helpful:
www.pacer.org (Parent Advocacy Center for Education Rights)
 
There are numerous issues with our educational system. Teachers unions certainly have been an impediment to things at times. So have parents, so have administrators, so have lawyers, so have any number of things. Saying one is more to blame than the other isn't going to get anyone anywhere. There's plenty of blame to go around. Fixing it, however, is the issue at hand. I'd say eliminating tenure would certainly be one step in the right direction.
 
I also love how many people automatically jump on the "have you thought about homeschooling?" bandwagon rather than FIX THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Yes, we homeschool (w/ a charter school) and yes, I am glad we have that opportunity, but that isn't the kind of choice this is about. I was asked to homeschool my DDs twice, both times by principals. The first time was when DD was in 2nd grade and was being harrassed and threatened by a couple of boys (they said they were going to "kill" her) b/c I had forced the PE teacher to stop playing the band Korn during PE time. Inappropriate for my daughter period, and certainly for 2nd graders. I did finally take her out to homeschool her, b/c of the threats she wasn't learning anything and was sick many days. Nothing was done to the boys, btw, and when they got to high school, they wound up being expelled.

So, in our district, if you aren't in advanced math in their school in the 8th grade, you don't get the advanced math track. You can't test in, you can't transfer in, so we decided to put DD back in school. In the 10th grade (she had just turned 15, btw), the advanced history teacher decided to show an R rated movie, sex and all to this class. There was no opt out, but to write yet another 10 page paper on the holocaust (she had just written one...all I asked was that she be allowed to go to the library and not held accountable for any information from the movie on tests). I was called into the principal's office and was told that my DD had been kicked out of the advanced history class (honors, straight As, etc) b/c the teacher didn't want to deal with parents who objected to his "teaching strategy". As he was the only advanced history teacher, I was told I could homeschool her history and they would give her advanced credit for it. Rather than fix the problem (teacher with an ego the size of Texas) and not allow R rated movies to be shown to 15 year olds, they preferred to kick the kid out. I told the principal I'd do one better, I'd put her in a charter school and they would lose the funding for her, which is exactly what I did.

The problems are allowed to continue and parents are tired of fighting which is why there is an exodus of sorts from the public schools. And...if you have problems with the school, the first reaction is to be told you should homeschool or send them to a private school. The school systems, unions, etc are happy with the status quo and God help you if you "rock the boat".
 
These are the kind of results you can get when you design high schools to prepare every student for college.

The Bill Gates speech speaks to a growing concern - American schools cater to the "gifted program" and reluctantly manage the "special needs students" and , well, forget the rest.
 
Art Vandalay said:
There are numerous issues with our educational system. Teachers unions certainly have been an impediment to things at times. So have parents, so have administrators, so have lawyers, so have any number of things. Saying one is more to blame than the other isn't going to get anyone anywhere. There's plenty of blame to go around. Fixing it, however, is the issue at hand. I'd say eliminating tenure would certainly be one step in the right direction.

::yes:: ::yes:: ::yes::
 


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