Student Loans

[barkley]

Granted, this was almost 30 years ago, but I got an entry level job in a medical practice after hs graduation. After a couple of years and several promotions, I used their tuituon reimbursement and took full time evening classes at a local university. I still graduated in 4 years, almost no debt.

a 2022 high school grad we know is starting an entry level job with a local hospital because the job begins with a paid training program affiliated with the state universities. the initial training program earns the identical college credits enrollment at the the university earns and includes the identical pre-requisite classes for the path to becoming an rn. continuing education is provided on the job that also earns college credits. between this and tuition reimbursement for outside classes it will take a couple more years than the traditional route but it's a pathway to an rn that will result in zero student debt along with a well above minimum wage paying job during the process.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Again--of COURSE it's not the same as "back in the day". I don't think anyone's arguing that costs have increased, well beyond inflation. Schools are much more administration-heavy, and those administrators are making serious money. Dorms are nicer, sports teams have greater funding, lavish school gyms are the norm. All these things cost major bucks.

BUT--lots of other things are not like "back in the day", but in a good way. We didn't have the internet back then. No virtual tours, no common app, no College Confidential, no finding obscure scholarships with a few clicks of a mouse. Term papers had to be typed, on actual typewriters. Forget about email or texts to and from your professors or TAs. There were also a lot less funding choices--I do remember my parents getting one solicitation for a parent loan, and I had a few friends who consolidated their student loans after graduation, but there weren't the different choices available, for better or worse, now. And, certainly no loan forgiveness (I know this is a sensitive topic, since it doesn't seem to be working well for most people).

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I agree that times were very different before. It was really eye-opening to me to help my kids navigate today’s college process and compare it to my own in the 80s (when I used to pay a lady $3 per page to type my papers for me - on a typewriter - and spend hours in the library late into the night xeroxing articles to take home with me to study, etc.). Shoot, when my DH went to college in the 90s I thought I died and went to Heaven to discover a Brother Word Processor! It was relatively simple then to go into a Financial Aid office and get whatever you needed. I wasn’t nearly as good at it as my sister was, she enjoyed access to top schools for little out of pocket, because she had a way with words (could talk a door of its hinges) and a lot of gumption. This is not the case today.

But my point was that keeping college costs low can still be done today, with some ‘thinking outside the box’, ala Debt Free U. I never said it was easy, and one definitely has to be willing to travel off-the-beaten-path and use creative ways to accomplish goals, especially in high COL areas and places with little state help, etc.

When I first moved out at 18, I rented a room for $25/week. Yes, it crimped my style a bit. But otoh I lived with a nice family in a nice home and was safe and relatively isolated from the party world, which, in retrospect, probably helped me focus just on work and school, which I really needed at that time in my life.

Rents where we are right now are astronomical. A friend of mine recently made an offer to my son to rent a room if need be if he gets a job near where she lives. She’s alone in a big house, would enjoy the company and security, and would be really happy to get some yard work done or some things fixed around the house that he could do in exchange for a nice room in a beautiful house with a big pool and lovely beaches near to where he might be working, along with a little rent, etc. But nothing like he’d pay for his own apartment. There are lots of people who might enjoy this type of arrangement but it’s probably not for everyone. (And I’m not sure DS would actually do it but it’s nice to have options.)

Waiting now to hear that it’s not realistic for a young kid to do something like that, right? They need ‘the college experience’ with life in a dorm! Bull! It’s just a different type of experience! And could work out for plenty of young people if they think it through and have that type of opportunity. We must look at these types of options to try to keep debt loads low if that’s what it takes, especially if the alternative is being saddled with debt throughout adulthood!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

BTW, @leebee, that story about your daughter always made me sad. Ugh.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I came across this and thought I would share. It’s a good article, written pre-pandemic.

What Will It Take To Solve The Student Loan Crisis?

I think the points about pressure from students are good ones.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Just think outside the box here.

How about kids that can’t afford to go to college don’t go!

Instead, get a job. The do online classes at 800 to 1000 dollar per class….. totally cost between 32000 and 45000 depending on books and supplies….

Even at 18 bucks an hour working at lowes they could pay as they go….

Yea, they would miss out of the Greek life, but they would learn a valuable lesson this new generation doesn’t have …..

How to get their hands dirty and work!

 

[leebee]

BTW, @leebee, that story about your daughter always made me sad. Ugh.

Thanks, sometimes I think it's just me, not being able to get over it. They way her high school had them do college apps was to submit their essays, app, names of faculty referees, etc., to the guidance office. The counselor then collected the references, got the official transcript, and submitted the entire package to each University. We didn't know DD's package was incomplete (the counselor forgot to put in her transcript) until late January, well after the deadline for merit money. UMaine is right here in our hometown, the guidance counselor went to the University to plead her case as it was his oversight, but they wouldn't budge. She graduated 3rd in her high school class, was a Maine student who wanted to go to UM and who wanted to stay/work in Maine, everything that should have qualified her for the merit money... but nope, she didn't make the cut-off date so no merit money for her. Didn't matter that most of our family are alums, that her parents work on campus, etc. It still makes me salty, and that was 11 years ago!

 

[QueenIsabella]

I agree that times were very different before. It was really eye-opening to me to help my kids navigate today’s college process and compare it to my own in the 80s (when I used to pay a lady $3 per page to type my papers for me - on a typewriter - and spend hours in the library late into the night xeroxing articles to take home with me to study, etc.). Shoot, when my DH went to college in the 90s I thought I died and went to Heaven to discover a Brother Word Processor! It was relatively simple then to go into a Financial Aid office and get whatever you needed. I wasn’t nearly as good at it as my sister was, she enjoyed access to top schools for little out of pocket, because she had a way with words (could talk a door of its hinges) and a lot of gumption. This is not the case today.

But my point was that keeping college costs low can still be done today, with some ‘thinking outside the box’, ala Debt Free U. I never said it was easy, and one definitely has to be willing to travel off-the-beaten-path and use creative ways to accomplish goals, especially in high COL areas and places with little state help, etc.

When I first moved out at 18, I rented a room for $25/week. Yes, it crimped my style a bit. But otoh I lived with a nice family in a nice home and was safe and relatively isolated from the party world, which, in retrospect, probably helped me focus just on work and school, which I really needed at that time in my life.

Rents where we are right now are astronomical. A friend of mine recently made an offer to my son to rent a room if need be if he gets a job near where she lives. She’s alone in a big house, would enjoy the company and security, and would be really happy to get some yard work done or some things fixed around the house that he could do in exchange for a nice room in a beautiful house with a big pool and lovely beaches near to where he might be working, along with a little rent, etc. But nothing like he’d pay for his own apartment. There are lots of people who might enjoy this type of arrangement but it’s probably not for everyone. (And I’m not sure DS would actually do it but it’s nice to have options.)

Waiting now to hear that it’s not realistic for a young kid to do something like that, right? They need ‘the college experience’ with life in a dorm! Bull! It’s just a different type of experience! And could work out for plenty of young people if they think it through and have that type of opportunity. We must look at these types of options to try to keep debt loads low if that’s what it takes, especially if the alternative is being saddled with debt throughout adulthood!

That could work well for a young person starting out, too--on a thread about apartments, people were saying how it's difficult to rent these days , even in a shared arrangement, due to income requirements. Something like this, not only would the rent be lower, but an individual could potentially be more lenient in terms of income, credit score, etc.

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree that times were very different before. It was really eye-opening to me to help my kids navigate today’s college process and compare it to my own in the 80s (when I used to pay a lady $3 per page to type my papers for me - on a typewriter - and spend hours in the library late into the night xeroxing articles to take home with me to study, etc.). Shoot, when my DH went to college in the 90s I thought I died and went to Heaven to discover a Brother Word Processor! It was relatively simple then to go into a Financial Aid office and get whatever you needed. I wasn’t nearly as good at it as my sister was, she enjoyed access to top schools for little out of pocket, because she had a way with words (could talk a door of its hinges) and a lot of gumption. This is not the case today.

But my point was that keeping college costs low can still be done today, with some ‘thinking outside the box’, ala Debt Free U. I never said it was easy, and one definitely has to be willing to travel off-the-beaten-path and use creative ways to accomplish goals, especially in high COL areas and places with little state help, etc.

When I first moved out at 18, I rented a room for $25/week. Yes, it crimped my style a bit. But otoh I lived with a nice family in a nice home and was safe and relatively isolated from the party world, which, in retrospect, probably helped me focus just on work and school, which I really needed at that time in my life.

Rents where we are right now are astronomical. A friend of mine recently made an offer to my son to rent a room if need be if he gets a job near where she lives. She’s alone in a big house, would enjoy the company and security, and would be really happy to get some yard work done or some things fixed around the house that he could do in exchange for a nice room in a beautiful house with a big pool and lovely beaches near to where he might be working, along with a little rent, etc. But nothing like he’d pay for his own apartment. There are lots of people who might enjoy this type of arrangement but it’s probably not for everyone. (And I’m not sure DS would actually do it but it’s nice to have options.)

Waiting now to hear that it’s not realistic for a young kid to do something like that, right? They need ‘the college experience’ with life in a dorm! Bull! It’s just a different type of experience! And could work out for plenty of young people if they think it through and have that type of opportunity. We must look at these types of options to try to keep debt loads low if that’s what it takes, especially if the alternative is being saddled with debt throughout adulthood!

I did something similar. I went away to school. After my required year living in the dorm and barely pulling it together financially, I moved off campus. I had been babysitting for a local family who asked me to move in and nanny between classes. My final year, I rented a room from some little old lady sisters. Would I have loved to have a nice apartment living by myself or with some well chosen friends? Absolutely. But you do what you have to do to make it work.

My son lived in a one room efficiency apartment for his last 2 years, with a mini fridge and a microwave as his kitchen. He was the traditional ramen noodle college kid.

Nobody is guaranteed the classic college experience. Not that I begrudge anyone that. But if you want that, then you should not be asking others to pick up some of the loans.

 

[BK2014]

Just think outside the box here.

How about kids that can’t afford to go to college don’t go!

Instead, get a job. The do online classes at 800 to 1000 dollar per class….. totally cost between 32000 and 45000 depending on books and supplies….

Ever at 18 bucks an hour working at lowes they could pay as they go….

Yea, they would miss out of the Greek life, but the would learn a valuable lesson this new generation doesn’t have …..

How to get their hands dirty and work!

Suggesting that people from low income backgrounds shouldn't pursue a higher education is hardly thinking outside the box. I posed this question earlier, but did not receive an answer - why is a K-12 education considered a right, but a college education is somehow a privilege?

 

[mom2rtk]

Suggesting that people from low income backgrounds shouldn't pursue a higher education is hardly thinking outside the box. I posed this question earlier, but did not receive an answer - why is a K-12 education considered a right, but a college education is somehow a privilege?

People from low income backgrounds are usually eligible for need based financial aid.

Are you proposing universal public funding of college degrees? How about grad school? What makes that different from undergrad or K-12?

 

[NotUrsula]

Just think outside the box here.

How about kids that can’t afford to go to college don’t go!

Instead, get a job. The do online classes at 800 to 1000 dollar per class….. totally cost between 32000 and 45000 depending on books and supplies….

Ever at 18 bucks an hour working at lowes they could pay as they go….

Yea, they would miss out of the Greek life, but the would learn a valuable lesson this new generation doesn’t have …..

How to get their hands dirty and work!

Conflating living on-campus with "Greek life" is way off from reality. Even at schools where the percentage of students who pledge is considered very high (well, with the exception of Wash&Lee in VA, which is a unicorn), it's normally still no more than 50% of the undergraduate student body. Less than 30% is more typical. (And FTR, I was a GDI at an SEC flagship as an undergrad, and yes, I lived in a dorm my freshman & sophomore year. 12' x 14' shared cinder-block room with a hall bath, which is still a dorm now, a few decades later.) DoE surveys show that at least 40% of FT US undergraduates work at least 20 hours a week during the semesters they are enrolled, and over 80% of part-time students work. What living in a dorm does for the average student is to ease the transition to adulthood in a semi-sheltered environment that is focused on learning, and where you can get a low-stakes immersive introduction in how to get along with people who are not like you, in whatever sense. (It also permits students who don't have family to live with anywhere near a suitable campus to use their student aid money to pay rent if the university/college is the landlord.)

Since the end of WW2, the US has, as a government and as a society, attempted to level the playing field for our professional workforce by subsidizing higher education for working class students, on the theory that socioeconomic diversity in our backgrounds makes our government (and our economy) stronger and less insulated from the issues that concern the majority of Americans. A blanket statement that "if you can't afford it, then don't go" encourages sliding back to the bad old days, when the only way to get your foot onto a college campus was either via the kitchen door or via Daddy's money. Now, do I think we've gone too far the other way, into "college is a right for everyone" territory? Yes, I believe we have, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

What do I think we need to do? For starters, re-think and expand the Pell program to bring it more up to date, and let more people qualify for it again, but with modern automated safeguards that will help to prevent the abuses that caused it to be cut so drastically in 1991. I also think Pells should be restricted to use at public institutions only, unless the student can show a hardship reason why a private school is the most cost-effective option. (However, no government-funded *student* grant-in-aid should be paid to any for-profit educational institution under any circumstances.) These days, Pells usually won't even cover commuter tuition at a local community college, because the program has not been properly revised for inflation.

PS: In recent years, very few new residence halls have been paid for with university funds at public schools. The usual arrangement now is to contract with a private development firm to build on university property and manage the complex with a long-term lease arrangement for the land; the standard contract has the building revert to the university after a certain time has elapsed, commonly 30 years or so. This arrangement allows the university to get new housing that is much nicer than what they might have been able to pay for, with little to no capital investment and no maintenance responsibilities for the property in the short-term. The developers, with their available economies of scale, build it, market it, maintain it, and make money off it (usually a lot of money), and then write it off when it reverts to the university just about the time it's getting too old to be considered deluxe.

 

[BK2014]

People from low income backgrounds are usually eligible foe need based financial aid.

Are you proposing universal public funding of college degrees? How about grad school? What makes that different from undergrad or K-12?

Are they eligible for need based aid that 100% makes it so that they do not have to rely on any student loans? It seems like PP's position is that anyone who needs loans for college cannot afford it. Obviously there is a huge gap between those that can afford to pay for college/grad school out of pocket and those who get 100% needs based funding, otherwise the student loan situation wouldn't be what it is and we would not be having this discussion.

I am not proposing anything. I am just asking an honest question about an arbitrary educational cutoff. Is it because at that point education is no longer compulsory, so we only pay for it when we're forcing you to go, but if it something you are actually choosing you have to pay?

 

[mom2rtk]

Are they eligible for need based aid that 100% makes it so that they do not have to rely on any student loans? It seems like PP's position is that anyone who needs loans for college cannot afford it. Obviously there is a huge gap between those that can afford to pay for college/grad school out of pocket and those who get 100% needs based funding, otherwise the student loan situation wouldn't be what it is and we would not be having this discussion.

I am not proposing anything. I am just asking an honest question about an arbitrary educational cutoff. Is it because at that point education is no longer compulsory, so we only pay for it when we're forcing you to go, but if it something you are actually choosing you have to pay?

So now the goal is no loans at all? Sorry, I'm out on that one.

I think it's reasonable for a society to undertake the cost of basic education. Education that teaches people to read, write and do basic math. Things that are required to function as an adult. Not doing so leaves society with too many people able to function in society. You don't need a college degree to live and work in society. One could argue that an over-educated population might leave society without enough people willing to perform the basic jobs typically done by people without college degrees now.

 

[mom2rtk]

Conflating living on-campus with "Greek life" is way off from reality. Even at schools where the percentage of students who pledge is considered very high (well, with the exception of Wash&Lee in VA, which is a unicorn), it's normally still no more than 50% of the undergraduate student body. Less than 30% is more typical. (And FTR, I was a GDI at an SEC flagship as an undergrad, and yes, I lived in a dorm my freshman & sophomore year. 12' x 14' shared cinder-block room with a hall bath, which is still a dorm now, a few decades later.) DoE surveys show that at least 40% of FT US undergraduates work at least 20 hours a week during the semesters they are enrolled, and over 80% of part-time students work. What living in a dorm does for the average student is to ease the transition to adulthood in a semi-sheltered environment that is focused on learning, and where you can get a low-stakes immersive introduction in how to get along with people who are not like you, in whatever sense.

Since the end of WW2, the US has, as a government and as a society, attempted to level the playing field for our professional workforce by subsidizing higher education for working class students, on the theory that socioeconomic diversity in our backgrounds makes our government (and our economy) stronger and less insulated from the issues that concern the majority of Americans. A blanket statement that "if you can't afford it, then don't go" encourages sliding back to the bad old days, when the only way to get your foot onto a college campus was either via the kitchen door or via Daddy's money. Now, do I think we've gone too far the other way, into "college is a right for everyone" territory? Yes, I believe we have, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

What do I think we need to do? For starters, re-think and expand the Pell program to bring it more up to date, and let more people qualify for it again, but with modern automated safeguards that will help to prevent the abuses that caused it to be cut so drastically in 1991. I also think Pells should be restricted to use at public institutions only, unless the student can show a hardship reason why a private school is the most cost-effective option. (However, no government-funded *student* grant-in-aid should be paid to any for-profit educational institution under any circumstances.) These days, Pells usually won't even cover commuter tuition at a local community college, because the program has not been properly revised for inflation.

PS: In recent years, very few new residence halls have been paid for with university funds at public schools. The usual arrangement now is to contract with a private development firm to build on university property and manage the complex with a long-term lease arrangement for the land; the standard contract has the building revert to the university after a certain time has elapsed, commonly 30 years or so. This arrangement allows the university to get new housing that is much nicer than what they might have been able to pay for, with little to no capital investment and no maintenance responsibilities for the property in the short-term. The developers, with their available economies of scale, build it, market it, maintain it, and make money off it (usually a lot of money), and then write it off when it reverts to the university just about the time it's getting too old to be considered deluxe.

Fellow GDI here! Our chapter was pretty large even on my highly Greek campus. Current stats at my highly Greek alma mater show Greek participation at 35-40%.

Like other things being discussed here, I could get behind a revamping of the Pell grant program. But I'd like to see money allocated in a budget by our Congressional Representatives and not just some mass loan forgiveness program pushed through by the stroke of a pen.

 

[BK2014]

I think it's reasonable for a society to undertake the cost of basic education. Education that teaches people to read, write and do basic math. Things that are required to function as an adult.

Students surely know how to read, write, and do basic math by the end of 8th grade.

 

[kymom99]

Conflating living on-campus with "Greek life" is way off from reality. Even at schools where the percentage of students who pledge is considered very high (well, with the exception of Wash&Lee in VA, which is a unicorn), it's normally still no more than 50% of the undergraduate student body. Less than 30% is more typical. (And FTR, I was a GDI at an SEC flagship as an undergrad, and yes, I lived in a dorm my freshman & sophomore year. 12' x 14' shared cinder-block room with a hall bath, which is still a dorm now, a few decades later.) DoE surveys show that at least 40% of FT US undergraduates work at least 20 hours a week during the semesters they are enrolled, and over 80% of part-time students work. What living in a dorm does for the average student is to ease the transition to adulthood in a semi-sheltered environment that is focused on learning, and where you can get a low-stakes immersive introduction in how to get along with people who are not like you, in whatever sense.

Since the end of WW2, the US has, as a government and as a society, attempted to level the playing field for our professional workforce by subsidizing higher education for working class students, on the theory that socioeconomic diversity in our backgrounds makes our government (and our economy) stronger and less insulated from the issues that concern the majority of Americans. A blanket statement that "if you can't afford it, then don't go" encourages sliding back to the bad old days, when the only way to get your foot onto a college campus was either via the kitchen door or via Daddy's money. Now, do I think we've gone too far the other way, into "college is a right for everyone" territory? Yes, I believe we have, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

What do I think we need to do? For starters, re-think and expand the Pell program to bring it more up to date, and let more people qualify for it again, but with modern automated safeguards that will help to prevent the abuses that caused it to be cut so drastically in 1991. I also think Pells should be restricted to use at public institutions only, unless the student can show a hardship reason why a private school is the most cost-effective option. (However, no government-funded *student* grant-in-aid should be paid to any for-profit educational institution under any circumstances.) These days, Pells usually won't even cover commuter tuition at a local community college, because the program has not been properly revised for inflation.

PS: In recent years, very few new residence halls have been paid for with university funds at public schools. The usual arrangement now is to contract with a private development firm to build on university property and manage the complex with a long-term lease arrangement for the land; the standard contract has the building revert to the university after a certain time has elapsed, commonly 30 years or so. This arrangement allows the university to get new housing that is much nicer than what they might have been able to pay for, with little to no capital investment and no maintenance responsibilities for the property in the short-term. The developers, with their available economies of scale, build it, market it, maintain it, and make money off it (usually a lot of money), and then write it off when it reverts to the university just about the time it's getting too old to be considered deluxe.

Where is this? Because it’s not that way around here. Our nearby university converted an old nursing home into dorms.

Also in Kentucky high school students can earn KEES money based on high school GPA each year and act score. My son had about $2400 to use towards college for each of 4 years. So $9600 total. This money is for any college in the state. Public or private.

 

[mom2rtk]

Students surely know how to read, write, and do basic math by the end of 8th grade.

Where do you propose all these 13 year olds work when they are turned loose on society after 8th grade?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Suggesting that people from low income backgrounds shouldn't pursue a higher education is hardly thinking outside the box. I posed this question earlier, but did not receive an answer - why is a K-12 education considered a right, but a college education is somehow a privilege?

I guess you didn’t read my entire post and just assumed it said hat you wanted it to say for your talking point ….

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Conflating living on-campus with "Greek life" is way off from reality. Even at schools where the percentage of students who pledge is considered very high (well, with the exception of Wash&Lee in VA, which is a unicorn), it's normally still no more than 50% of the undergraduate student body. Less than 30% is more typical. (And FTR, I was a GDI at an SEC flagship as an undergrad, and yes, I lived in a dorm my freshman & sophomore year. 12' x 14' shared cinder-block room with a hall bath, which is still a dorm now, a few decades later.) DoE surveys show that at least 40% of FT US undergraduates work at least 20 hours a week during the semesters they are enrolled, and over 80% of part-time students work. What living in a dorm does for the average student is to ease the transition to adulthood in a semi-sheltered environment that is focused on learning, and where you can get a low-stakes immersive introduction in how to get along with people who are not like you, in whatever sense.

Since the end of WW2, the US has, as a government and as a society, attempted to level the playing field for our professional workforce by subsidizing higher education for working class students, on the theory that socioeconomic diversity in our backgrounds makes our government (and our economy) stronger and less insulated from the issues that concern the majority of Americans. A blanket statement that "if you can't afford it, then don't go" encourages sliding back to the bad old days, when the only way to get your foot onto a college campus was either via the kitchen door or via Daddy's money. Now, do I think we've gone too far the other way, into "college is a right for everyone" territory? Yes, I believe we have, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

What do I think we need to do? For starters, re-think and expand the Pell program to bring it more up to date, and let more people qualify for it again, but with modern automated safeguards that will help to prevent the abuses that caused it to be cut so drastically in 1991. I also think Pells should be restricted to use at public institutions only, unless the student can show a hardship reason why a private school is the most cost-effective option. (However, no government-funded *student* grant-in-aid should be paid to any for-profit educational institution under any circumstances.) These days, Pells usually won't even cover commuter tuition at a local community college, because the program has not been properly revised for inflation.

PS: In recent years, very few new residence halls have been paid for with university funds at public schools. The usual arrangement now is to contract with a private development firm to build on university property and manage the complex with a long-term lease arrangement for the land; the standard contract has the building revert to the university after a certain time has elapsed, commonly 30 years or so. This arrangement allows the university to get new housing that is much nicer than what they might have been able to pay for, with little to no capital investment and no maintenance responsibilities for the property in the short-term. The developers, with their available economies of scale, build it, market it, maintain it, and make money off it (usually a lot of money), and then write it off when it reverts to the university just about the time it's getting too old to be considered deluxe.

No, taking out a loan and whining when you can’t figure out how to pay it is way off reality. I was just using it as an example of why these scholars should pay their own tab.